Alliance Rail (GNWR) gets Network Rail approval

[GatwickDepress]

Yach. I'm so glad we don't have an equivalent of Reading on the West Coast. If I lived in Bristol instead of Manchester all those pilers going to Reading would annoy me even more than the MK passengers do when I have the misfortune to take a train that stops there!

I'm a passenger from MK.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What would be the problem if a 6 car train stopped at a 5 car platform?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Until the platform lengthening occurred at Salford Crescent station, I think that was a problem faced by 6-car First TPE sets of Class 185 units.

 

[northwichcat]

Until the platform lengthening occurred at Salford Crescent station, I think that was a problem faced by 6-car First TPE sets of Class 185 units.

Note that a 185 has 23.8m carriages while a Pendolino has 26m carriages, the extra 13 or so metres in train length between a 6 car 185 and a 6 car Pendolino would probably be too long for Salford Crescent.
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So even more new trains for the North then

No - new trains for London - again!

 

[NotATrainspott]

Note that a 185 has 23.8m carriages while a Pendolino has 26m carriages, the extra 13 or so metres in train length between a 6 car 185 and a 6 car Pendolino would probably be too long for Salford Crescent.
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No - new trains for London - again!

Pendolinos have 23m carriage lengths; the driving cars are ~25m but this doesn't matter so much. The Class 80x will be the first operational train on the network to use 26m carriage lengths.

 

[northwichcat]

Pendolinos have 23m carriage lengths; the driving cars are ~25m but this doesn't matter so much. The Class 80x will be the first operational train on the network to use 26m carriage lengths.

Well at some stations like Winsford it's fine for a train to stop with the driver's door off the end of the platform but if there's a signal at the end of the platform then it's not possible to do that.

Actual lengths are 25.1m for driving cars and 23.9m for intermediate cars. I knew the intermediate cars were shorter than the driving cars but didn't realise that they're only slightly longer than carriages on other types of modern trains.

 

[thealexweb]

Oh not this whole nonsense again. "Bolton and Chorley are noplaces, everybody travelling there is happy with a pacer and nobody wants to go beyond Victoria."

Yeah, right.

That argument infuriates me too. I can't remember which thread it was in but someone was doing a comparison between Bolton and the Wigan stations and despite Wigan having a direct connection to the mainline it only had 25k more long distance travellers a year compared to Bolton.

 

[Starmill]

Note that a 185 has 23.8m carriages while a Pendolino has 26m carriages, the extra 13 or so metres in train length between a 6 car 185 and a 6 car Pendolino would probably be too long for Salford Crescent.

Pendos are 26!?!

EDIT:

Actual lengths are 25.1m for driving cars and 23.9m for intermediate cars. I knew the intermediate cars were shorter than the driving cars but didn't realise that they're only slightly longer than carriages on other types of modern trains.

Ah right I see. Interesting comparison then that a 333 is only ~0.2m shorter cars than a Pendoliono!

 

[Clip]

No - new trains for London - again!

No - new trains that go to London but will spend most of their time not in London, unless Blackpool Leeds Manchester and places in between where they will be most of the time have sudden ly become a borough?

 

[Starmill]

No - new trains that go to London but will spend most of their time not in London, unless Blackpool Leeds Manchester and places in between where they will be most of the time have sudden ly become a borough?

By exactly the same token they won't spend most of their time 'in the North' either, as it's also at the end of the route...

This argument is going down an insane route. Picture a Shiny new train that does Manchester to London non-stop all day. It spends most of it's time in the Midlands, whichever route it takes. Is it a 'new train for the midlands'?

 

[northwichcat]

No - new trains that go to London but will spend most of their time not in London, unless Blackpool Leeds Manchester and places in between where they will be most of the time have sudden ly become a borough?

It's only because the trains are going to London that new stock will be ordered. If it was a new Crewe-Blackpool service it'd probably use whatever EMUs were available for cascade.

I wonder if the new direct London-Eccles service will see people going between London and MediaCity using an alternative route.

 

[DarloRich]

Yach. I'm so glad we don't have an equivalent of Reading on the West Coast. If I lived in Bristol instead of Manchester all those pilers going to Reading would annoy me even more than the MK passengers do when I have the misfortune to take a train that stops there!

Yes terrible. Imagine that. People paying a fortune to travel wanting to do so in the fastest manner possible. Yes awful. How it must ruin your journey. :roll:

 

[WatcherZero]

That argument infuriates me too. I can't remember which thread it was in but someone was doing a comparison between Bolton and the Wigan stations and despite Wigan having a direct connection to the mainline it only had 25k more long distance travellers a year compared to Bolton.

25k more interchanges, a direct vs interchange journey doesnt neccesarily equate to whether its long distance or not, though the interchanges being a higher proportion of ridership would be indicative of a more complex journey where interchange time is a lower proportion of total journey length to become a viable travel choice.

 

[Clip]

I really do need to start putting more posts in italics as people seem inept at grasping sarcasm written down.
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By exactly the same token they won't spend most of their time 'in the North' either, as it's also at the end of the route...

This argument is going down an insane route. Picture a Shiny new train that does Manchester to London non-stop all day. It spends most of it's time in the Midlands, whichever route it takes. Is it a 'new train for the midlands'?

no, anywhere north of Watford is 'The North'.

 

[noddingdonkey]

Can't imagine TPX being too impressed by this new service competing on Leeds - Manchester with much longer trains than theirs which have a reputation for overcrowding.

Or maybe they will welcome another option for the Leeds - Huddersfield MetroCard holders!

 

[cle]

I can't believe the chippy shouldered brigade are still complaining that new trains between the North and London are only new due to serving London! Who benefits more?!

Let's be clear on the demand, it's not Londoners visiting Blackpool (unless one or two Blackpoolers escaped and are reluctantly visiting family!) It's all inbound to London. Nobody in London has heard of Eccles and BBC folk will be staying and socialising in town, hence I'd expect Piccadilly to remain the station of choice.

And a Crewe - Blackpool service could never justify new EMUs. Open Access is never going to work unless it is London to X.

 

[Mugby]

I can't imagine Blackpool generating enough usage to warrant six return trips to London every day, not even in summer let alone off season.
I would think most passengers from Blackpool will be getting off at Preston.

 

[northwichcat]

I can't believe the chippy shouldered brigade are still complaining that new trains between the North and London are only new due to serving London! Who benefits more?!

Let's be clear on the demand, it's not Londoners visiting Blackpool (unless one or two Blackpoolers escaped and are reluctantly visiting family!) It's all inbound to London. Nobody in London has heard of Eccles and BBC folk will be staying and socialising in town, hence I'd expect Piccadilly to remain the station of choice.

One word sums up your post - hypocritical.

You're saying no-one based in London travels north which is totally incorrect. I know of many London based people who travel north by train for meetings and the like. There's also some people who are from London but went to uni in the North and then returned to London who regularly travel north to see friends.

Also if you're saying everyone goes to London, then it means London benefits:
* People will be buying food from London based businesses while they are there.
* They might stay overnight in a London based hotel.
* A Northern businessperson might be travelling to London to discuss working with a London based firm which will offer further employment opportunities at both firms due to the new contract.
* It enhances the London rail services further so continues to put London well ahead of other southern cities for ease of getting to from the North.
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I can't imagine Blackpool generating enough usage to warrant six return trips to London every day, not even in summer let alone off season.
I would think most passengers from Blackpool will be getting off at Preston.

They'll likely be some traffic generated by giving Blackpool a direct service to Warrington and Crewe, especially on Fridays, at the weekend and during school holidays.

Unlike most other seaside resorts Blackpool does have something to attract visitors in the autumn - The Illuminations.

 

[cle]

One word sums up your post - hypocritical.

You're saying no-one based in London travels north which is totally incorrect. I know of many London based people who travel north by train for meetings and the like. There's also some people who are from London but went to uni in the North and then returned to London who regularly travel north to see friends.

Also if you're saying everyone goes to London, then it means London benefits:
* People will be buying food from London based businesses while they are there.
* They might stay overnight in a London based hotel.
* A Northern businessperson might be travelling to London to discuss working with a London based firm which will offer further employment opportunities at both firms due to the new contract.
* It enhances the London rail services further so continues to put London well ahead of other southern cities for ease of getting to from the North.
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They'll likely be some traffic generated by giving Blackpool a direct service to Warrington and Crewe, especially on Fridays, at the weekend and during school holidays.

Unlike most other seaside resorts Blackpool does have something to attract visitors in the autumn - The Illuminations.

Erm...I didn't say nobody travels north, of course they do! My comments about the BBC demand staying via Piccadilly surely acknowledge that. I travel north a lot myself. I was talking about these proposed services and the new places served, clearly.

But nobody is going to go from London to Blackpool, Eccles, Winslow/Hartford or such place in significant volumes. Hence demand would be in-bound, by and large.

Certainly Londoners do not holiday in Blackpool, and are already well-catered for in terms of the northern destinations they do travel to with significant demand.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Certainly Londoners do not holiday in Blackpool, and are already well-catered for in terms of the northern destinations they do travel to with significant demand.

I think that's rather hard on Blackpool.
It has a significant conference market, and plenty of demand for leisure weekends. It is also popular with the Scots.

Anyway, I doubt if Alliance regards Blackpool as the principal goal of its services.
It wants a cut of all the North-London flows, and the key ones will be Preston, Man Victoria and Huddersfield.
Not to mention MKC and the Trent Valley.

 

[West Ruislip]

GNWR says it expects significant opposition to its plans:

http://railannouncement.zenfolio.com/blog/2014/6/network-rail-agrees-to-gnwr-proposal

 

[Western Lord]

I can't imagine Blackpool generating enough usage to warrant six return trips to London every day, not even in summer let alone off season.
I would think most passengers from Blackpool will be getting off at Preston.

As well as being a popular seaside resort, Blackpool has a population of 140,000, rather more than, say, Penzance, which apparently warrants more than six trains to London each day.

 

[northwichcat]

Erm...I didn't say nobody travels north, of course they do! My comments about the BBC demand staying via Piccadilly surely acknowledge that. I travel north a lot myself. I was talking about these proposed services and the new places served, clearly.

But nobody is going to go from London to Blackpool, Eccles, Winslow/Hartford or such place in significant volumes. Hence demand would be in-bound, by and large.

Certainly Londoners do not holiday in Blackpool, and are already well-catered for in terms of the northern destinations they do travel to with significant demand.

You did say in your earlier post "It's all inbound to London."

I think you mean Wilmslow, which isn't part of Alliance's proposal anyway. There are people living in London who travel to Wilmslow, George Osborne (who was behind getting more Wilmslow-London trains) makes a northbound London-Wilmslow and southbound Wilmslow-London journey most Fridays. There's also directors from London companies who make similar journeys. I could name six that I know of who have made such journeys recently and that's just people going to and from one Knutsford based company.

 

[The Ham]

Erm...I didn't say nobody travels north, of course they do! My comments about the BBC demand staying via Piccadilly surely acknowledge that. I travel north a lot myself. I was talking about these proposed services and the new places served, clearly.

But nobody is going to go from London to Blackpool, Eccles, Winslow/Hartford or such place in significant volumes. Hence demand would be in-bound, by and large.

Certainly Londoners do not holiday in Blackpool, and are already well-catered for in terms of the northern destinations they do travel to with significant demand.

There is very little demand from passengers travelling from Scotland to Cornwall, yet there are XC services which do this. The reason being that people catch the trains over shorter distances than the full end to end distance in enough numbers to justify the route.

Demand is likely to be balanced, as not that many people will only travel on a train in one direction, although I see your point that it is likely that most people will use the service heading towards London as their first leg. However given the population of London is something like 10% of the total of the UK that is not overly surprising. If there were another city in the UK with a similar percentage of the UK population it is likely that it too would have very high flows into it.

 

[cle]

You did say in your earlier post "It's all inbound to London."

I think you mean Wilmslow, which isn't part of Alliance's proposal anyway. There are people living in London who travel to Wilmslow, George Osborne (who was behind getting more Wilmslow-London trains) makes a northbound London-Wilmslow and southbound Wilmslow-London journey most Fridays. There's also directors from London companies who make similar journeys. I could name six that I know of who have made such journeys recently and that's just people going to and from one Knutsford based company.

Sorry, I meant Winsford! Hence the slash with Hartford.
Wilmslow of course has huge demand (already met).

And saying about London to Penzance as a singular market is a nonsense - demand is from London to significant points along the route, which also becomes a local service from Plymouth onwards. The Scotland to SW services are a different type - for many intermediate journeys and no need for correlation between beginning and end points.

Scottish demand is well-catered with many services to Preston. And that stereotype is quite dated now, it's still somewhat popular in a heritage, tongue-in-cheek way, but waning hugely.

And please let's not quote populations as an absolute when talking about demand. It's all about economics and context, and Blackpool is a hole. Not every thousand of population will generate equal demand for London travel.

 

[Masbroughlad]

What happens if the next bidders for the WC want to run to new destinations from Euston?

 

[muddythefish]

Certainly Londoners do not holiday in Blackpool, and are already well-catered for in terms of the northern destinations they do travel to with significant demand.

Patently not true and another grandiose sweeping statement by this poster which is not backed up by facts.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

What happens if the next bidders for the WC want to run to new destinations from Euston?

Well, if they want to add new destinations, there's always - umm - Bolton and Chorley

 

[cle]

Patently not true and another grandiose sweeping statement by this poster which is not backed up by facts.

Sorry but this is true. I live and grew up here, and have never met anybody who has been to Blackpool, let alone goes with any frequency. Nobody would deign to entertain the idea!

Even northerners and Glaswegians don't bother with the proliferation of budget airlines, and oldies go to more sedate seaside towns. Or Spain.

Not grandiose at all, quite pedestrian. I'd love to see your facts though, seeing as you raise empirical evidence.

 

[Roose]

Well, if they want to add new destinations, there's always - umm - Bolton and Chorley

Perhaps Alliance will consider routing their proposed Carlisle - Cumbrian Coast - Furness - London service via Bolton and Manchester Airport now that they have time to reconsider/develop this proposal?

(London to Manchester Airport might be appealing to customers of proposed MAN to Chinese cities routes that Heathrow can't accommodate?)
.

 

[route:oxford]

Sorry but this is true. I live and grew up here, and have never met anybody who has been to Blackpool, let alone goes with any frequency. Nobody would deign to entertain the idea!

Even northerners and Glaswegians don't bother with the proliferation of budget airlines, and oldies go to more sedate seaside towns. Or Spain.

Not grandiose at all, quite pedestrian. I'd love to see your facts though, seeing as you raise empirical evidence.

I can't honestly say I have the tendency to ask people if they have ever been to Blackpool as a matter of habit...

On the odd occasion that I've visited the town, I've found that I'm just as likely to receive a Scottish note in my change as an English one.