Alliance Rail (GNWR) gets Network Rail approval

[northwichcat]

Will tickets with Manchester Central to London Terminals on them be valid on these new services?

These are all the tickets available for Manchester to London: http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=0438&dest=1072

The ones marked

Route VIA CHESTERFIELD
Route AP EMT & CONNECT
Route VIRGIN TRNS ONLY
Route VWC & CONNECTNS

Won't be valid on Alliance services.

I imagine Alliance would introduce their own restricted tickets.

 

[gordonthemoron]

surely Any Permitted will be allowed, otherwise the ORCATS raid is pointless?

 

[thealexweb]

These are all the tickets available for Manchester to London: http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=0438&dest=1072

The ones marked

Route VIA CHESTERFIELD
Route AP EMT & CONNECT
Route VIRGIN TRNS ONLY
Route VWC & CONNECTNS

Won't be valid on Alliance services.

I imagine Alliance would introduce their own restricted tickets.

Thanks

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

These are all the tickets available for Manchester to London: http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=0438&dest=1072
The ones marked
Route VIA CHESTERFIELD
Route AP EMT & CONNECT
Route VIRGIN TRNS ONLY
Route VWC & CONNECTNS
Won't be valid on Alliance services.
I imagine Alliance would introduce their own restricted tickets.

The booking engines don't seem to want to offer a Manchester Victoria-Euston ticket via Warrington BQ.
I can't think of a reason why an Any Permitted ticket should not be valid that way.
Crewe-Manchester via Warrington is regularly used as a diversionary route, not much slower than via Wilmslow.
Eccles-Warrington-Euston seems to work, at the same fare as Manchester-Euston.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

surely Any Permitted will be allowed, otherwise the ORCATS raid is pointless?

'Any Permitted' tickets would always be allowed on direct trains (NRCoC Condition 13).

The booking engines don't seem to want to offer a Manchester Victoria-Euston ticket via Warrington BQ.
I can't think of a reason why an Any Permitted ticket should not be valid that way.
Crewe-Manchester via Warrington is regularly used as a diversionary route, not much slower than via Wilmslow.
Eccles-Warrington-Euston seems to work, at the same fare as Manchester-Euston.

Eccles has the same fare as Manchester Stns, but whilst Manchester Stns will use Manchester Group for routeing, Eccles is associated with Manchester Group, Wigan Group and Earlestown Group. Newton-le-Willows (Earlestown Group) has a lower fare to London than Eccles and therefore passes the fares check rule.

Manchester-London has permitted routes via Irlam and Warrington Central, but not Earlestown.

 

[Starmill]

All/most of the 'express' services will run via Victoria once the Ordsall Chord is open- as a result, there'll be more paths available between Stalybridge and Piccadilly via Guide Bridge and more reason to run the stopper to Piccadilly too (as Victoria will already have a regular service with both the fasts and the terminators). The irritating reverse-curves at Guide Bridge will also be less of a pain on a stopper (though whether this stopper would call at the likes of Guide Bridge, Gorton, Ashburys etc., I don't know!).

Would be interesting for Guide Bridge to have a Stalybridge service... I always find it really strange that there are 4 trains an hour along that route that don't interact with it at all. Not sure if there's a particular demand for it, but it could improve connections...

 

[edwin_m]

All/most of the 'express' services will run via Victoria once the Ordsall Chord is open- as a result, there'll be more paths available between Stalybridge and Piccadilly via Guide Bridge and more reason to run the stopper to Piccadilly too (as Victoria will already have a regular service with both the fasts and the terminators). The irritating reverse-curves at Guide Bridge will also be less of a pain on a stopper (though whether this stopper would call at the likes of Guide Bridge, Gorton, Ashburys etc., I don't know!).

Also if the stopper follows a faster service from Huddersfield it's likely to have the next fast close behind it by the time it gets to Stalybridge, so will have a path if it gets out of the way via Guide Bridge but not it it continues via Ashton ahead of the same fast. Similarly in the other direction the stopper has more chance of getting to Huddersfield ahead of the next fast if it joins the route immediately behind the previous one at Stalybridge rather than Victoria.

Although the newish layout at Stalybridge allows overtaking, a stopper would have to wait there for several minutes to allow this to happen.

 

[pt_mad]

What is the likely timescale for office of rail regulation approval?

And how likely is it they will get it?

 

[gazthomas]

What is the likely timescale for office of rail regulation approval?

And how likely is it they will get it?

They need some trains too!

 

[pt_mad]

They need some trains too!

Which presumably they will order after said approval.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What is the likely timescale for office of rail regulation approval?
And how likely is it they will get it?

They've been putting off a decision about Alliance for years.
The excuse usually is that Network Rail hasn't come up with a timetable offer for the next major change (post-Norton Bridge upgrade, 2016-17).
I expect they will find another excuse to kick the can down the road again.
The real problem is that there isn't (or if there is nobody is saying) a franchise specification post the expiry of Virgin's latest direct award.
ORR will probably say they have to wait for the DfT to make a bid, so they can compare the demand for the two sets of services.
Or they could offer Alliance conditional access for a couple of years pending the new franchise bid - but that's no use to Alliance without trains.

 

[The Planner]

I doubt anyone really knows what will happen until some sort of idea of what can get in and out of Euston once the HS2 works start is worked out. Alliance could struggle to get as far as the proposed Queens Park

 

[Carlisle]

Or they could offer Alliance conditional access for a couple of years pending the new franchise bid - but that's no use to Alliance without trains.

Are there still any spare 317s about

 

[pt_mad]

Its all a bit of a shame considering how Grand Central didn't seem to have half these problems.


The kind of thing Alliance are proposing could again reinvigorate some of the stations in the Trent.

Nuneaton which lost its hourly fast service would once again be given the chance to become a decent hub, with essentially an off peak hourly fast north and south, the LM Trent Service, Nuckle to Cov and East of England XC services.

Connections at Tamworth would also be improved with further fast calls.


There has to be demand. At least for the Trent Valley southbound and to Crewe going north. I mean those Eus - Crewe services at the moment are rammed.

 

[Carlisle]

the talk of ORCATS raids etc suggest this much delayed ongoing approval is more about a vetting process for a very exclusive members club with possible potential for some easy earnings as it is about giving the customer extra choice and value through competition .maybe one day we will find a simpler and quicker way to provide extra choice on the railways or if we can't then work our way back to a form of BR which is almost universally accepted as quite a bit cheaper than our complex franchised (almost total) monopoly

 

[ainsworth74]

Its all a bit of a shame considering how Grand Central didn't seem to have half these problems.

I thought they ended up going to court at one stage?

 

[sprinterguy]

I thought they ended up going to court at one stage?

I seem to remember that, vaguely, too. As a native of Sunderland I know that it took years for Grand Central to get to the point where they were running trains, and they still faced struggles even after that.

 

[telstarbox]

Arriva services to begin soon?

Great North Western Railway Company (which is part of the Arriva group) has announced that it has come to agreement with Network Rail for new services between London and Huddersfield.

Following the period of industry consultation (which is now underway and due to finish in early July), the access contract needs only final approval from the Office of Rail Regulation (ORR) so that the new trains can be ordered, and the recruitment process can begin.

The key features of the GNWR proposal are six return trains a day between London and Huddersfield via Manchester Victoria and then continuing on to Leeds, starting in 2018 a well as investment in a fleet of eight new Alstom Pendolino trainsand more than 200 new jobs created for this operation, plus significant wider economic benefits across the towns and cities served.

The agreement also includes six return trains a day between London and Blackpool, starting in 2017.

https://bdaily.co.uk/industrials/14...pen-up-links-between-huddersfield-and-london/

 

[swt_passenger]

It isn't a sign of any services beginning soon, they have no rolling stock for a start, and won't even order it unless ORR gives there OK.

 

[pt_mad]

It isn't a sign of any services beginning soon, they have no rolling stock for a start, and won't even order it unless ORR gives there OK.

Roll on approval then..

 

[Masbroughlad]

Would be good to see them invest in Cleethorpes if TPE lose it.

 

[Manchester77]

Just reading through Augusts modern railways and the section on the virgin trains direct award, in the interview with virgins lead executive he tells Tony Miles that he's not sure where alliance have found the extra paths and none of the four 2012 bidders found extra capacity:

 

[The Planner]

So that will be paths that weren't there for their original Shrewsbury bid? Yeah ok....

 

[Chris125]

Aren't the extra paths a consequence of the Norton Bridge flyover being finished in a few years time?

Chris

 

[The Planner]

Which will more than likely actually disappear once any HS2 works start at Euston.

 

[rebmcr]

Which will more than likely actually disappear once any HS2 works start at Euston.

Which would explain the Queen's Park terminating, right?

 

[The Planner]

Not necessarily as I wouldn't bet they could get even that far post 17, there will be a cut to everyone as not everything is going to fit i suspect....

 

[thealexweb]

If there are locations on the WCML that are close to bursting point why are small EMUs still allowed in the WCML? For example London Midland is allowed to use up slots but only provides 4-8 cars. These new six car Pendos will be taking up a slot where an 11 car Virgin service could in theory run. We need minimum train lengths in the crunch areas.

 

[northwichcat]

If there are locations on the WCML that are close to bursting point why are small EMUs still allowed in the WCML? For example London Midland is allowed to use up slots but only provides 4-8 cars. These new six car Pendos will be taking up a slot where an 11 car Virgin service could in theory run. We need minimum train lengths in the crunch areas.

Well a 350/1+350/1 has a similar number of seats to a 9 car Pendolino and a 350/2+350/2 has a similar number of seats to a 11 car Pendolino.

Virgin also run 5 and 10 car Voyagers in WCML paths. A 5 car Voyager has more seats than a 350/1 but less than a 350/2.

Obviously the Pendolino and Voyagers have a more Intercity style layout but the 350 formations aren't necessarily lower capacity than the Virgin formations.

 

[swt_passenger]

Obviously the Pendolino and Voyagers have a more Intercity style layout but the 350 formations aren't necessarily lower capacity than the Virgin formations.

...and isn't the idea of the 350/3s to run more services at 8 or 12 car length from December, and then (it is generally accepted) add the 350/4s to lengthen even more services?

Seems like they have a cunning plan already...