idiot driver gets light penalty for disobeying crossing lights

[Bill Stanier]

As is always the case with road and rail, there's dual standards in safety going on here.

A driver runs the flashing lights and gets hit by a train and there's calls for apologies from NR and replacing the crossing with a bridge.

A driver runs a red light at a crossroads and causes an accident. That's 'just life', there's an official shrug of the shoulders, and we carry on as before.

It was ever thus.

 

[DJL]

As is always the case with road and rail, there's dual standards in safety going on here.

A driver runs the flashing lights and gets hit by a train and there's calls for apologies from NR and replacing the crossing with a bridge.

A driver runs a red light at a crossroads and causes an accident. That's 'just life', there's an official shrug of the shoulders, and we carry on as before.

It was ever thus.

Driver runs a red light with his train and may well lose his job...

 

[Lockwood]

Wasn't the school bus "caught" by CCTV, not a red light camera?

AIUI, the Home Office still hasn't got around to type approving red light cameras for level crossings

 

[Tibbs]

Driver runs a red light with his train and may well lose his job...

Train Driver runs a red light and he could kill tens even hundreds of people.

Apples and Oranges.

/edit and also the driver is being paid quite a lot of money and has been trained extensively not to do just that.

A car driver has had maybe 20 lessons and a short test a long time ago before being let loose on the road. You could say that the training and testing for car drivers is inadequate, but that's another thread, and not something I'd disagree with.

 

[AndyNLondon]

Train Driver runs a red light and he could kill tens even hundreds of people.

Apples and Oranges.

"Car driver ignores lever crossing, gets hit by train" and "car driver nods off & crashes through fence onto railway, gets hit by train" could easily have similar consequences. And we know all about what the latter can lead to.

 

[Nick W]

Well, they have just put up a load of cameras on the NW past of the M25, in the new hard shoulder running part. All of them are hard to see (grey, sat on a little shelf on the side of the gantry), if that's not a money making exercise then I do not what is! Put it this way, nearly every time I have seen one, it has flashed multiple times (both opposite carriage way, and the one I'm travelling on)

Just assume every gantry is armed and they're easy to spot!

I think they made a mistake with the managed motorways by not having average speed cameras.

 

[Tibbs]

"Car driver ignores lever crossing, gets hit by train" and "car driver nods off & crashes through fence onto railway, gets hit by train" could easily have similar consequences. And we know all about what the latter can lead to.

A charge of causing death by dangerous driving and a spell in prison. It's the same both ways.

I used to drive for a living (travelling sales rep), and getting prosecuted was grounds for a disciplinery and more than 6 points and you could be fired. So the same as a train driver for professional drivers.

You can not compare professional drivers and amateurs.

 

[Domh245]

Just assume every gantry is armed and they're easy to spot!

I think they made a mistake with the managed motorways by not having average speed cameras.

The newly redone part of the M25 (Junctions 5-7) would appear to have speed cameras, even when there isn't a speed imposed. I've seen the cameras flashing many times recently, but whether or not they are permanent, or just a relic from the works, I don't know.

 

[Bald Rick]

The newly redone part of the M25 (Junctions 5-7) would appear to have speed cameras, even when there isn't a speed imposed. I've seen the cameras flashing many times recently, but whether or not they are permanent, or just a relic from the works, I don't know.

There is always a speed imposed - it's normally 70mph and the cameras are active for that.

 

[Domh245]

There is always a speed imposed - it's normally 70mph and the cameras are active for that.

I was talking about the LED matrix ones which come when there is congestion/an incident, but yes, my post was alluding to the fact that they are always on. Would they be set for exactly 70 though. If car speedos are calibrated to ±10% (or is that an urban legend) then someone doing 77 might be informed by their car that they are doing 70.

 

[edwin_m]

Of course, I always believed that when speed cameras first came in and were hidden (and often came at the expense of supporting traffic police) the idea was very much to catch people and make money, than deter people. In fact, when cameras had to be clearly marked, there was a lot of anger within the safety camera partnerships (employing people on incredibly good salaries).

Or it may be that when people don't know where the cameras are they will stick to the speed limit everywhere, not just when they are approaching a camera. And that the people in the partnerships were annoyed that their cameras just got much less effective at saving lives.

Other than a gratuitous dig, I can't see how the salaries of those people provides any useful contribution to the argument. Unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, I will continue to assume that like most local authority people they aren't paid particularly well.

As far as I am concerned complying with the speed limit (like respecting level crossing signals) is an essential part of safe driving, not some kind of game to play with the authorities.

 

[matchmaker]

Wasn't the school bus "caught" by CCTV, not a red light camera?

AIUI, the Home Office still hasn't got around to type approving red light cameras for level crossings

No - red light camera. There are several at crossings in Scotland.

 

[HowardGWR]

I was talking about the LED matrix ones which come when there is congestion/an incident, but yes, my post was alluding to the fact that they are always on. Would they be set for exactly 70 though. If car speedos are calibrated to ±10% (or is that an urban legend) then someone doing 77 might be informed by their car that they are doing 70.

It's an urban legend. If you pass a SID (Speed Indication Device) on entry to a village, if you do 31 mph it will flash you, and if you do 30 it won't (if it is working). So you can check your speedo in this way. Every car I have owned has had a superbly accurate speedometer which I was able to check in this way. An earlier poster bemoaned the lack of 'average speed' cameras to enforce 70 mph (same could be for other speed limits). I agree, such a measure would be environmentally helpful (see difference in consumption at 80 vs 70) and make rail even more competitive.

 

[BritishRail83]

[youtube]ZdmwHOxRrtM[/youtube]

Simple, but effective.

Allows drivers off the crossing, but not on.

great! i love it. we should fit those here

 

[carriageline]

The newly redone part of the M25 (Junctions 5-7) would appear to have speed cameras, even when there isn't a speed imposed. I've seen the cameras flashing many times recently, but whether or not they are permanent, or just a relic from the works, I don't know.

There the new type they are using, it's called HAWDACS or something similar. They are grey, blend in like hell and you only see them when they flash!


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[fowler9]

There the new type they are using, it's called HAWDACS or something similar. They are grey, blend in like hell and you only see them when they flash!


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Ha ha, it would almost be unfair apart from the fact all you have to do to not get fined is not break the speed limit.

 

[jon0844]

There is always a speed imposed - it's normally 70mph and the cameras are active for that.

Bad wording on my part. I meant active during a reduced limit. I am aware we don't have a 'no speed limit' anymore!

Also, nobody has a superbly accurate speedo. All modern cars will offset so you'll be told a higher speed than you're going. There's no plus or minus tolerance. There's a tolerance one way only, and that's why you will overread.

Finally Safety Camera Partnerships were a great money spinner for a select few. They weren't for profit, but they had huge costs and were bordering on scams.

For a while, all motorists believed that speed killed and thus driving at the right speed made you perfectly safe. And now they say our driving standards are terrible and speed is rarely a major cause of accidents, but rather inattentive driving (looking for cameras?) and so on.

I am not against cameras for one, but I am against the view that a static box is no replacement for regular police.

SPECS (average speed) was also stated by some high profile people at the time, involved in road safety, on the basis that they were too effective and couldn't pay for themselves!

That's probably why they aren't so widely used when they do exactly what they're supposed to do and keep speeds low. Through any roadworks, their use is incredibly effective. No doubt many road workers are alive thanks to their use.

So why not use them elsewhere?

 

[90019]

I am not aware of any system that can tell if a camera is active or not, although on the old-school Gatso ones you could tell by looking. Now they're mostly digital, they're always active (or have the potential to be without you knowing).

A lot of them are still film, I regularly see a couple of the ones around Edinburgh having the film changed.

I think they made a mistake with the managed motorways by not having average speed cameras.

They really didn't.
My experience tells me that average speed cameras are actively dangerous, for the simple reason that they cause drivers to sit watching their speedo rather than the road ahead, because they're scared of getting done.
I've had a few near misses with other drivers drifting across lanes while in an area with average speed cameras because they're not watching where they're going.

I was talking about the LED matrix ones which come when there is congestion/an incident, but yes, my post was alluding to the fact that they are always on. Would they be set for exactly 70 though. If car speedos are calibrated to ±10% (or is that an urban legend) then someone doing 77 might be informed by their car that they are doing 70.

It's not an urban myth, but you've not quite got it right.
The majority of car speedos will over read, and are legally allowed to up to 10%, however it's illegal for a car speedo to under read.
Every car I've owned has had a speedo that over reads, as do the majority of the buses I drive.

SPECS (average speed) was also stated by some high profile people at the time, involved in road safety, on the basis that they were too effective and couldn't pay for themselves!

They're hideously expensive to run, I can't remember the figure but a lot of the temporary ones are installed but not actually turned on.

 

[gorgonwilliam]

I was thinking an ordinary traffic light type of red light should be placed a little in front of the actual crossing lights timed to turn red a full five seconds before the gate closing sequence begins. With that in place, all four barriers could be lowered simultaneously instead of two and two as now. The point at which the approaching train activates the gate closing sequence should be set a mile or so further back along the line to allow for the operation described in my first sentence.
As for traffic congestion in the area, there is little that can be done about that unless the road is lowered so that road traffic goes under the railway rather than across it.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I meant active during a reduced limit.

If this refers to the cameras on the gantries near Heathrow on the M25, those are now digital and are active 24/7 whether either the 70mph limit or a lower variable limit is in force; they were turned on a couple of months ago.

 

[carriageline]

If this refers to the cameras on the gantries near Heathrow on the M25, those are now digital and are active 24/7 whether either the 70mph limit or a lower variable limit is in force; they were turned on a couple of months ago.

You mean the ones that sit on the side of the gantries? I didn't know there was any that far round to be fair?!


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[Peter Mugridge]

No, the ones mounted in the gantries themselves above each lane. On the Heathrow section every gantry has cameras - and the gantries can be quite close together.

 

[carriageline]

T

These are the new style, atleadt around the NW part of the M25. HADECs is the name (highways agency digital enforcement cameras)


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[Peter Mugridge]

I haven't been round there recently so I can't answer how far those new style signs have spread.

 

[fowler9]

So are you guys saying they have these cameras that are hard to spot.... but if you don't break the speed limit nothing happens? I think I can see a solution!

 

[DownSouth]

I was talking about the LED matrix ones which come when there is congestion/an incident, but yes, my post was alluding to the fact that they are always on. Would they be set for exactly 70 though. If car speedos are calibrated to ±10% (or is that an urban legend) then someone doing 77 might be informed by their car that they are doing 70.

Speedometers in cars for sale in Britain are required to comply with the UN standard as a condition of type approval - the same standard applies all around the world allowing manufacturers to export anywhere. This allows a new speedometer to read over (e.g. reading 42 when the actual speed is 40) by a margin of up to 10% plus 4km/h (10% +2.5mph) when tested at speeds of 40km/h (up to 48 km/h allowed to be shown), 80km/h (92km/h) and 120km/h (136km/h) and it may not read under by any margin at any of the test speeds.

In practice, manufacturers generally calibrate new magnetic speedos at +5% (i.e. right in the middle of the allowed range, and they ignore the allowed +4km/h) to allow for variations in tyre selection/wear/pressure, any effects of cornering and any weakening of the torsion spring over time.

For cars with an electronic speedo (which runs off one of the ABS sensors) the margin in the figure shown to the driver is usually set to read 3-5% over, as with a magnetic speedo this is enough to allow for tyres and cornering. This can be altered by the dealership or a service agent trained to work with that manufacturer's electronic equipment, but this is rarely advertised by car dealerships because they seem to be allergic to any extra work!

It's not an urban myth, but you've not quite got it right.
The majority of car speedos will over read, and are legally allowed to up to 10%, however it's illegal for a car speedo to under read.
Every car I've owned has had a speedo that over reads, as do the majority of the buses I drive.

The British regulations which were superseded by the international standard did allow reading under, the margin was ±5% and a further 6mph (10km/h) over. The Australian Design Regulations copied this system for some time until the UN 10%+4 standard came in, and I used to have an old Toyota Corolla which would read a couple of kilometres over at 60km/h but a few kilometres under at 100km/h. The reading under was almost never a problem though - that car was only capable of hitting 100km/h on maybe four or five stretches of fast downhill road anywhere within a 100km radius of home!

Just for fun, on my carbon fibre Scott Foil bicycle I have my bike computer calibrated to inside ±0.1% - we have a number of yearly tarmac rallies in Adelaide for which a straight road near the city has a couple of signs permanently posted at a surveyed distance for entrants to do an odometer check run during pre-rally scrutineering.

 

[jon0844]

GPS can usually give a fairly accurate reading. Otherwise it's a case of getting the speedo regularly calibrated and certified, as happens with the police but I imagine that might be rather expensive and time consuming!

 

[DownSouth]

GPS can usually give a fairly accurate reading. Otherwise it's a case of getting the speedo regularly calibrated and certified, as happens with the police but I imagine that might be rather expensive and time consuming!

GPS is no good if for some reason you're not able to get it to sight the required number of satellites to get an accurate position - as in tunnels, cities, steep valleys, roads with lots of overpasses etc.

For the average motorist in a car less than 25 years old from when the UN standard came into force, there's no need to spend money getting a speedo calibrated unless you have made modifications to the car (e.g. different size tyres, changed the final drive ratio etc) or have good reason to believe it is reading under.

If anything, a traditional magnetic speedo is more likely to gradually start reading a little higher over time as the torsion spring weakens a bit. As I wrote before, this is why new cars usually have the speedo - whether magnetic or electronic - set to +5% so it's right in the middle of the range allowing for wiggle room either way.

 

[jon0844]

GPS is no good if for some reason you're not able to get it to sight the required number of satellites to get an accurate position - as in tunnels, cities, steep valleys, roads with lots of overpasses etc.

No, in those cases it's useless. But I just wanted to say that it will (in the right circumstances) give you a very accurate idea of the speed you're doing and how far out your speedo is.

Modern GPS receivers aren't badly affected by most of the things you've mentioned.

You can look around the net to see plenty of people who say they were done for, say, 46 in a 40 or 36 in a 30.. and then they'll start to claim that it's unfair given the supposed 10% + nn rule.

What they're failing to admit is that they're actually quite lucky given they were almost certainly thinking they were doing 50 or 40, and it's the offset speedo that prevented them getting done for a higher speed!

 

[Antman]

Problem with a stinger-type device (not sure if this was a serious suggestion) is that then you've got a vehicle with punctured tyres sat on the crossing as a train is approaching. Which is unarguably a Bad Thing.

The problem we have is that attempts to get people to obey the law on the roads are portrayed as part of a "war on the motorist" - it's probably the only area where politicians will worry about losing votes for being "tough on crime".

A stinger device causes a slow puncture, I don't know if it was a serious idea but it would get my vote.

I don't think anybody would seriously suggest that cracking down on motorists jumping level crossing lights, or red lights in general, was a "war on the motorist". It's speed camera's people won't accept, certainly outside of urban areas. A traffic cop told me that camera's on high speed dual carriageways and motorways are a distraction for drivers, whilst they're looking for camera's and looking down at their speedo they are not looking at the road ahead and at high speed even a momentary distraction can have very serious consequences.