Steam replacing electric trains on the mainline

[electrolux]

I don't think it will happen but it will be awsome if it does however they are more likely to develop electric trains powerd by batterys rather than return to old style steam

 

[starrymarkb]

Utter pie in the sky wibble from some kind of rabid fantasist.

Could it be The 8AT guy who reckons his kettle will out accelerate a voyager or EMU?

 

[al.currie93]

Steam powered trains as we know them will not come back unless the other technologies (diesel and electric and so on) become unavailable or uneconomical AND society doesn't collapse as a result of that; steam trains as we know them are simply less energy and labour efficient (albeit actually more carbon efficient!).

However, never say never to steam powered trains in general :P steam trains could well come back in a new form if one is discovered that is on par with or more efficient than diesel or electric and so on... you never know what might be developed!

This can in part be shown by Bulleid's Leader Class, which was a step (albeit a small one) in transforming steam into something different.

 

[J123]

For my college project a few years ago I drew up plans for a steam engine that ran off the current electrical infrastructure. Electricity from overhead lines simply powered a giant heating element inside a boiler full of water. The loco had a tender full of water and electric injectors. It essentially was just a kettle.

However this design would be largely inefficient. It was just for a project. I wanted to make a working model but sadly it would be too complicated to make in the college workshop, Instead I built a model of what It would look like.

 

[Bill Stanier]

For my college project a few years ago I drew up plans for a steam engine that ran off the current electrical infrastructure. Electricity from overhead lines simply powered a giant heating element inside a boiler full of water. The loco had a tender full of water and electric injectors. It essentially was just a kettle.

That has been done in (I think) Switzerland, or maybe it was another country, but it was somewhere with a lot of cheap hydro electricity available!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Steam powered by overhead is pointless, you may as well use a conventional ac emu. Steam powered by coal for a normal train on the main line is also pointless, what would happen when NR ban steam because of lineside fire risks in the summer?

 

[Bill Stanier]

what would happen when NR ban steam because of lineside fire risks in the summer?

NR could chop the trees down. No fires, no leaf fall problem, and a view from the train!

 

[J123]

Steam powered by overhead is pointless, you may as well use a conventional ac emu. Steam powered by coal for a normal train on the main line is also pointless, what would happen when NR ban steam because of lineside fire risks in the summer?

Hey my overhead wire steam engine college project got me an A* pointless design or not ha.

 

[route:oxford]

Wouldn't you just build a fixed location steam engine to generate local power to transmit to overhead wires or 3rd rail?

More efficient if it's not dragging a few tonnes of coal behind it...

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Why not save on all the electrical heating element and the expensive OLE and use a clean, reliable and long lasting source of power...

Nuclear.

 

[Bill Stanier]

Why not save on all the electrical heating element and the expensive OLE and use a clean, reliable and long lasting source of power...

Nuclear.

Because you'd be carting around a nuclear reactor which would be big and heavy enough to survive undamaged the worst possible crash so that's maybe 50 tons alone. Then you'd need the rest of the nuclear power station in your loco - a steam turbine and alternator with a superheated high pressure coolant system that would also have to crash-proof. Then you'd need everything an OLE electric loco has - transformers, control gear, traction motors blowers etc.

That's going to be one very, very heavy loco (far to heavy for any current rail route) and also incredibly expensive. And still potentially quite dangerous in an accident.

Best to keep your nuclear power station 'on shore' and use OLE to power the trains.

 

[J123]

My view on steam engines returning to the mainline has been changed after today. I went on SouthEastern high speed for the first time today... wow. If only all trains, stations and trackwork was that advanced. Until now the most advanced trains I had been on were Desiros. I thought they was as good as electric trains get. ha

 

[DJL]

Because you'd be carting around a nuclear reactor which would be big and heavy enough to survive undamaged the worst possible crash so that's maybe 50 tons alone. Then you'd need the rest of the nuclear power station in your loco - a steam turbine and alternator with a superheated high pressure coolant system that would also have to crash-proof. Then you'd need everything an OLE electric loco has - transformers, control gear, traction motors blowers etc.

That's going to be one very, very heavy loco (far to heavy for any current rail route) and also incredibly expensive. And still potentially quite dangerous in an accident.

Best to keep your nuclear power station 'on shore' and use OLE to power the trains.

Aren't some spacecraft nuclear powered?

Mind you they don't need to be crash protected after launch.

 

[bangor-toad]

Because you'd be carting around a nuclear reactor which would be big and heavy enough to survive undamaged the worst possible crash so that's maybe 50 tons alone. Then you'd need the rest of the nuclear power station in your loco - a steam turbine and alternator with a superheated high pressure coolant system that would also have to crash-proof. Then you'd need everything an OLE electric loco has - transformers, control gear, traction motors blowers etc.

That's going to be one very, very heavy loco (far to heavy for any current rail route) and also incredibly expensive. And still potentially quite dangerous in an accident.
.

There was some serious consideration given to just such a machine in the USA in the late 50's. Clicky link It didn't get developed due to cost and diesels just being a better option.

Every decade or so the Russians dust off their plans for one. The reasoning there seems to be a vast country where it's probably worth the effort of dragging a reactor around with you. Here's a link to one of the latest incantations of their idea.

Aren't some spacecraft nuclear powered?

Few (any non military?) Earth orbit satellites have any form of nuclear power. It'd be a bit of a PR headache. Mind you, many deep space probes are nuclear powered but these normally use some form of radioisotope thermoelectric generator.
These take the heat of radioactive decay and directly, but rather inefficiently, convert it to electrical power. You get a few hundred watts, maybe a kilowatt. Whilst that's fine for specially designed spacecraft, it's never going to power a train!


Speculating wildly though, there are a number of compact nuclear reactors used in submarines. Could one of these be crammed into a (large) locomotive? Given the size of the UK I couldn't ever see any conceivable reason why we'd need to do this but it could be handy for the very long runs that could (any number of wars permitting!) run between Europe & Asia...

Cheers,
Mr Toad

 

[ac6000cw]

My view on steam engines returning to the mainline has been changed after today. I went on SouthEastern high speed for the first time today... wow. If only all trains, stations and trackwork was that advanced. Until now the most advanced trains I had been on were Desiros. I thought they was as good as electric trains get. ha

Well if you think travelling at 140 mph is good, you need a ride on proper high-speed train - better book a trip on Eurostar (they do 186 mph on the same track).

 

[Emyr]

It's still not worth lugging it around. OHLE should be more efficient.

 

[J123]

Well if you think travelling at 140 mph is good, you need a ride on proper high-speed train - better book a trip on Eurostar (they do 186 mph on the same track).

I would love to but I don't have a passport sadly. I'm going to look into going to see the Maglev in Germany next year.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I would love to but I don't have a passport sadly. I'm going to look into going to see the Maglev in Germany next year.

Since you'll need to get a passport to do that anyway, might I suggest going to Germany via Eurostar to Bruxelles and then connect to the Thalys or ICE onwards? that way you'll experience three different types of high speed train on the one trip...

 

[The Decapod]

I would love to but I don't have a passport sadly. I'm going to look into going to see the Maglev in Germany next year

Do you mean Transrapid and its Emsland test track?
Unfortunately it's gone - it was closed in 2012 and the track is being demolished.
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transrapid

 

[SpacePhoenix]

From googling it looks like Siemens had an public open day at their test track in Germany back in 2012, can't find any mention of any since then so maybe public open days are very, very rare there

 

[J123]

Its gone now, unfortunately. I hope we see another one sometime in the near future.

 

[Beveridges]

Return to Steam ? No chance!

Yes, it has been done on preserved lines. But would it be any use on the real railway ? Look at all these features preserved lines have and you would quickly see why it wouldn't work:

1) Prices are about 10X higher per mile. This is despite with volunteers running it.
2) No early morning services. No evening services at all. Even a late afternoon service can be hard to come by on a heritage line.
3) Trains that do not run every day - especially week days.
4) Very poor reliability of locomotives.

Looking at these three huge drawbacks that the heritage lines offer, I cannot see steam ever returning to serious commuter lines.

If it ever did, it would need to be ran very differently to the heritage lines. You'd need paid staff, improved infrastructure for faster linespeeds and better locomotive & rolling stock maintenance, the already "Very High" ticket prices will go up immensely!!

 

[nferguso]

I honestly cannot believe the question behind this thread: anybody with the most basic understanding of history, economics or management would not even think of asking such a silly question. Thank you to 'Beveridges' for injecting a bit of realism.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

How about a train with pedals / treadles / treadmills.

Or like the car the Anthill Mob has in Whacky Races.

Power to the passenger!

1) The busier the train (or the more you pedal), the quicker you get to your destination.

2) The country saves a fortune from the NHS budget because the lard-arses lose weight and get exercise.

3) Individuals have more money by not buying gym memberships.

WIN, WIN, WIN!

 

[The Decapod]

You could even have dual power engines; 25kV overhead which could then switch over to steam-electric for the non-powered branches. In fact, you could use the 25kV to pre-heat the boiler to save some combustible mass!

Or use the 25kv overhead to charge batteries! Batteries might not last for ever, but neither do steam boilers - at least not without the periodic need for removal, overhaul, testing, certification and refitting!

 

[ac6000cw]

I honestly cannot believe the question behind this thread: anybody with the most basic understanding of history, economics or management would not even think of asking such a silly question. Thank you to 'Beveridges' for injecting a bit of realism.

This is a discussion forum i.e. an online debating society, partly.

Discussing apparently 'silly' subjects has long been a feature of debating societies, and long may it continue (life would be a bit boring if all discussion was 'serious' ).

 

[341o2]

the issue of the 750v dc 3rd rail normally surfaces after disruption due to a cold spell (ice on the conductor rails) concluded so far that in the long term complete conversion to 25kv of all the Southern network unfeasable given the level of disruption

Both the Lymington branch and extending the Isle of Wight steam railway to Ryde have been mentioned before on this forum, I can't see steam ever returning commercially to the national network apart from special charter trains. On the Lymington branch where do you maintain and stable the stock?

in passing, the Brighton line was once run by overhead electrics, converted to third rail to match the rest of the system and steam did once briefly return to the Lymington branch in the form of Manston returning to the Swanage line after the Eastliegh 150 celebrations. The loco was shunted onto the Lymington branch and waited just off platform 4 waiting for a path west at Brockenhurst. Doubtless thoses forced to wait another 30 mins for their train as the Lymington service was cancelled while Manston was in the way were not exactly happy

 

[D6975]

It's not that silly an idea.

The Germans looked into building modern efficient steam engines some time back (1990s was it?) - I think they even built a prototype.

They didn't persue it (obviously) and if the Germans can't get it to work economically then I don't think we stand a chance...