Steam replacing electric trains on the mainline

[J123]

I was talking to someone the other day who had an interesting theory about the future of Britain's railways. Basically he thinks that steam may return to some branch lines which aren't worth electrifying/modernising.

For example... It is possible that much of the third rail network in the south will be converted to 25kv. He thinks however that in some situations the cost of modernisation won't be justified. The exact line he spoke about was the Lymington branch. He thinks the Lymington branch line will not receive 25kv, instead it will have its third rail lifted and either run by a DMU or steam locomotives as a heritage commuter service.

Does anyone think this may happen? or are there any similar plans currently in place elsewhere in the country which I don't know about?

Anyhow I think it's an interesting topic, Discuss..

 

[Firesprite]

The Lymington branch service is already being provided by a Class 159 DMU on weekdays

 

[J123]

I'm told that the 159 got SWT in trouble due to the fact that energy is being wasted powering the third rail which isn't being used. Idk how reliable my source of this information is that's also why I've come to ask about this on the forum.

Anyway we are talking in the distant future, 159's will probably be in their final phase by the time the south gets 25kv.

 

[Crawley Ben]

I was talking to someone the other day who had an interesting theory about the future of Britain's railways. Basically he thinks that steam may return to some branch lines which aren't worth electrifying/modernising.

For example... It is possible that much of the third rail network in the south will be converted to 25kv. He thinks however that in some situations the cost of modernisation won't be justified. The exact line he spoke about was the Lymington branch. He thinks the Lymington branch line will not receive 25kv, instead it will have its third rail lifted and either run by a DMU or steam locomotives as a heritage commuter service.

Does anyone think this may happen? or are there any similar plans currently in place elsewhere in the country which I don't know about?

Anyhow I think it's an interesting topic, Discuss..

It's wishful thinking & nothing more in my honest opinion. I honestly cannot see Steam Locomotives being used in regular service on branch lines. Yes they may have done in the past but that was a long time ago & things have moved on since then. As for the third rail being lifted, again it's possible but highly unlikely I would think due to the expense involved etc.

Ben

 

[Bill Stanier]

It could happen because unlike in the past when steam was uneconomic in manpower terms, with a heritage line operated by volunteers this is no longer an issue.

I don't think it's likely though, as heritage steam might not provide a reliable enough service (due locos going tech, etc) for a commuter line.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What about the price of coal though? I remember reading somewhere that the price of coal has shot up over the last few years. The branch lines will either be run by DMUs or by some sort of light rail system or by trams.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

It would be a nice idea, could be possible maybe on some lines, perhaps to Swanage for example, as it's almost geared for that now, just need a few adjustments at Wareham.

Similar for the Whitby/Middlesborough line although the reversal at Battersby would need to be sorted out.
They already have the NYMR connection there for part of the route and it's being improved at Whitby.

There is a regular steam service on the Mallaig brach from Fort William if that counts.

 

[E&W Lucas]

It would be a nice idea, could be possible maybe on some lines, perhaps to Swanage for example, as it's almost geared for that now, just need a few adjustments at Wareham.

Similar for the Whitby/Middlesborough line although the reversal at Battersby would need to be sorted out.
They already have the NYMR connection there for part of the route and it's being improved at Whitby.

The NYMR hasn't got enough working steam locos to run the NYMR, let alone anything else!

As for believing what someone's said about preserved steam replacing electrics, etc, of steam, have you heard the one about putting a tooth under your pillow, and a fairy visiting during the night, and a coin magically appearing in the morning?
1968 happened. Get over it!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

It would be a nice idea, could be possible maybe on some lines, perhaps to Swanage for example, as it's almost geared for that now, just need a few adjustments at Wareham.

Similar for the Whitby/Middlesborough line although the reversal at Battersby would need to be sorted out.
They already have the NYMR connection there for part of the route and it's being improved at Whitby.

There is a regular steam service on the Mallaig brach from Fort William if that counts.

Swanage Railway are running into Wareham next year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-21402534

They're going to be using a DMU. I'm wondering if SWT might eventually run a couple of services per day in the summer from Bournemouth

 

[Crawley Ben]

It would be a nice idea, could be possible maybe on some lines, perhaps to Swanage for example, as it's almost geared for that now, just need a few adjustments at Wareham.

Similar for the Whitby/Middlesborough line although the reversal at Battersby would need to be sorted out.
They already have the NYMR connection there for part of the route and it's being improved at Whitby.

There is a regular steam service on the Mallaig brach from Fort William if that counts.

I suspect it's the Jacobite service your referring too.... Yes it's regular during the summer, but it's not a commuter service.

The idea will never get off the ground & anyone that thinks it can/will needs a dose of reality rather quickly

Ben

 

[ralphchadkirk]

There will never be any commercial, commuter, lines returning to a timetable steam service.

 

[ac6000cw]

As far as using steam - in your dreams....

De-electrification has happened before - the local North Tyneside services were originally 3rd rail electrified by the North Eastern Railway starting in 1904 (and later extended to South Shields by the LNER). BR replaced some of the the rolling stock with essentially a northern version of a 2-EPB in the 1950's, but falling traffic and life-expired electrification equipment meant that BR decided it was more cost-effective to change to DMU operation in stages between 1963 - 1967.

Ironically of course most of the lines were re-electrified (using overhead wires) to form the main part of the original Tyne and Wear Metro system in the 1980s.....

It's also possible (had Manchester Metrolink not happened) that the Manchester Victoria - Bury line would have gone to DMU operation. It had a unique 1200V side-contact 3rd rail system, and both the electrification and the rolling stock were getting old by the late 1980's (and there was no other electrification at Victoria, or any prospect of it back then, so converting it to 25 kV overhead would have been expensive).

 

[NSEFAN]

Any return to steam traction would be a seasonal operation like the Jacobite. I don't think we will see steam return to any kind of serious commuter service which people rely on to get to work, etc. The price of oil may be going up, but IIRC steam traction is abysmally inefficient (around 5% efficient?) compared to modern traction. In fact steam power is only worth it in very large systems like power stations, so you'd do better to use electric traction for the trains themselves, especially with advances like modern regenerative braking.

 

[yorksrob]

The only way I could imagine a return to steam would be some sort of major long term international crisis that cut off supply lines of oil (coal is something we still have decent reserves of !). Of course, this wouldn't happen on electrified lines - we'd just burn the coal to generate the electricity.

 

[Darren R]

But it would mean that a use would finally be found for that strategic steam reserve that's been holed-up in ....... (insert appropriate name here depending on which version you believe!)

 

[ac6000cw]

But it would mean that a use would finally be found for that strategic steam reserve that's been holed-up in ....... (insert appropriate name here depending on which version you believe!)

 

[Chris125]

It could happen because unlike in the past when steam was uneconomic in manpower terms, with a heritage line operated by volunteers this is no longer an issue.

Unlike heritage operations, lines like the Lymington branch operate from early morning to late evening all year round with much lower relative fares - they can't possibly be operated by volunteers on the same financial model. It's a complete fantasy I'm afraid.

Chris

 

[yorksrob]

But it would mean that a use would finally be found for that strategic steam reserve that's been holed-up in ....... (insert appropriate name here depending on which version you believe!)

Well I don't believe in the strategic steam reserve

But you never know when the balloon will go up.

Perhaps it comes from being brought up in the cold war

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Unlike heritage operations, lines like the Lymington branch operate from early morning to late evening all year round with much lower relative fares - they can't possibly be operated by volunteers on the same financial model. It's a complete fantasy I'm afraid.

Chris

Would the Lymington branch be able to exist financially without the passengers getting on it for the ferry over to the IoW?

 

[broadgage]

I doubt that we will see any significant de electrification, even if the third rail system has no very long term future I expect that outlying bits useing reclaimed equipment will survive for decades.

I can however see an eventual return to steam for lightly used branches that do not merit the capital cost of electrification.
Diesel fuel may become unafforadable as crude oil supplies deplete, coal is still in relatively plentifull supply.

In an oil-poor world such branches will become vital links in the absence of affordable oil powered road or air transport.
A twice daily steam hauled train conveying both passengers and light goods could be a lifeline for remote communities, as was the case 100 years or more ago.

In the nearer term, many heritage lines could run through services to the national network, probably useng mainly DMUs but with steam haulage at peak times.

 

[Flying Snail]

It could happen because unlike in the past when steam was uneconomic in manpower terms, with a heritage line operated by volunteers this is no longer an issue.

That is a non-runner. The availability of volunteer staff for all current heritage lines is far from guaranteed, especially as the generation who grew up with steam get older. The prestigous jobs are one thing but steam locos require a lot of hard dirty graft to keep them running and to service a regular schedule you would either need to guarantee 100% availability or have a modern train+paid staff on standby to cover.

Expecting to get unpaid workers to cover a near 24h 7 day operation is just fantasy. Are you volunteering to permanently cover the night shift prepping a steam loco to be ready for first service?

This is one of the reasons that few if any heritage lines whose routes could now possibly support regular passenger traffic have seriously considered expanding their leisure timetables into ones more suitable for passenger traffic. Swanage is the only exception and that is by coming to an arrangement for a TOC to run services not trying to do it themselves with volunteers.

 

[ac6000cw]

Would the Lymington branch be able to exist financially without the passengers getting on it for the ferry over to the IoW?

Probably not - actually it might never have been built in the first place were it not for the IoW traffic.

 

[DarloRich]

I was talking to someone the other day who had an interesting theory about the future of Britain's railways. Basically he thinks that steam may return to some branch lines which aren't worth electrifying/modernising.

For example... It is possible that much of the third rail network in the south will be converted to 25kv. He thinks however that in some situations the cost of modernisation won't be justified. The exact line he spoke about was the Lymington branch. He thinks the Lymington branch line will not receive 25kv, instead it will have its third rail lifted and either run by a DMU or steam locomotives as a heritage commuter service.

Does anyone think this may happen? or are there any similar plans currently in place elsewhere in the country which I don't know about?

Anyhow I think it's an interesting topic, Discuss..

Utter pie in the sky wibble from some kind of rabid fantasist.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

The NYMR hasn't got enough working steam locos to run the NYMR, let alone anything else!


Are the NYMR Short of steam locos then?

 

[The Decapod]

He thinks the Lymington branch line will not receive 25kv, instead it will have its third rail lifted and either run by a DMU or steam locomotives as a heritage commuter service.

Aren't they developing an EMU that can run either off the 25kv overhead or off batteries that are charged from the overhead? The idea being that they can run onto on short branches that adjoin an electrified line without the need for electrifying the branch.

I've found this: http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/rolling-stock/british-group-to-test-battery-powered-emu.html

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I doubt that we will see any significant de electrification, even if the third rail system has no very long term future I expect that outlying bits useing reclaimed equipment will survive for decades.

I can however see an eventual return to steam for lightly used branches that do not merit the capital cost of electrification.
Diesel fuel may become unafforadable as crude oil supplies deplete, coal is still in relatively plentifull supply.

In an oil-poor world such branches will become vital links in the absence of affordable oil powered road or air transport.
A twice daily steam hauled train conveying both passengers and light goods could be a lifeline for remote communities, as was the case 100 years or more ago.

In the nearer term, many heritage lines could run through services to the national network, probably useng mainly DMUs but with steam haulage at peak times.

That is a very good argument. Through running could happen on many lines, although some track infrastructure alterations may be required etc. For example at Duffied, on the EVR and also on the Wensleydale, Weardale, WSR, SVR, Bluebell etc etc.

 

[Pugwash]

Aren't they developing an EMU that can run either off the 25kv overhead or off batteries that are charged from the overhead? The idea being that they can run onto on short branches that adjoin an electrified line without the need for electrifying the branch.

I've found this: http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/rolling-stock/british-group-to-test-battery-powered-emu.html

Light rail or tram trains would seem the best way of cutting costs in the long term.

If this can be done with batteries all well and good, my concern would be the longevity of the batteries.

Steam is just not going to happen - far too labour intensive.

 

[ac6000cw]

Aren't they developing an EMU that can run either off the 25kv overhead or off batteries that are charged from the overhead? The idea being that they can run onto on short branches that adjoin an electrified line without the need for electrifying the branch.

I've found this: http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/rolling-stock/british-group-to-test-battery-powered-emu.html

Yes, it was mentioned in Modern Railways as well, as far as I remember.

Not that it's a new idea in 3rd rail territory - anyone remember the SR Motor Luggage Vans that were used to haul boat trains on the Folkstone Harbour branch with battery power ? (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_419 )

 

[SpacePhoenix]

In any case steam as a regular propulsion method for service trains would probably fall well foul of emissions regs anyway. There is also the far greater risk of lineside fires.

 

[bangor-toad]

Hi there,
I can't ever see the use of heritage steam engines being used for regular mainline services. For all the reasons pointed out by others it's just not viable.


Let me speculate though...
At some point diesel is going to become increasingly expensive. Bio-diesel will fill in some uses but other sources of power could be considered.

I could foresee a new breed of steam engine. These would be based on a compact boiler burning pretty much anything but let's say biomass pellets or pulverised coal. (These boilers are commercially available now). Couple the steam output of that to a standard Rankine Cycle turbine (a smaller version of what's used in almost all power stations today) to generate electrical power.

Feed that electrical power into some lightweight batteries / flywheel for power smoothing and or storage purposes. Take the power as electrical energy to drive conventional traction motors.

You could even have dual power engines; 25kV overhead which could then switch over to steam-electric for the non-powered branches. In fact, you could use the 25kV to pre-heat the boiler to save some combustible mass!

All fantasy though.
Whilst this is all technically possible today there seems to be no need as the standard diesel technology does quite nicely and will do so for quite a few years. Still, anyone fancy an interesting project?

Mr Toad