Bolton/London link newspaper headlines.

[Howardh]

Driving through Bolton the newspaper shops display board says something like "Bolton direct service to London plan". Looked on the newspaper website and can't find anything, and won't be able to pick up a paper until tomorrow.

Has anyone read the article and can fill me in until then (or it gets published on the website?) I would imaging any such plans would involve Scotland/London Virgin trains being re-routed through Manchester (again??) via Chorley/Bolton when the line is electrified.

However - a wider issue, even if that were so what kind of trains could the link take? I would imagine Pendolinos would be out - unsuitable line??-, so the best we could hope for would be 80-100mph units?

Soz if this has been dealt with somewhere else on the fourum but I'm on a quick 10 min break and haven't time to scurry around!! (*Boss approaches)

 

[Emyr]

Bolton's platforms #3 (up?) and #4 (down?) are long enough for Pendolinos, but the two problems I see are:

1. Capacity through Manchester: Deansgate - Oxford Rd - Piccadilly is already full enough for very short delays to have widespread impact and Ordsall Chord isn't going to change that in the short term. This sensitive section also extends through Salford Crescent and I don't believe there are any alternative routes south of Bolton.

2. How do you stop it from being just another Bolton-Manchester commuter service? I believe capacity on this flow is still lower now than a year ago due to service transferred to the electrified route through Wigan with 350s.

 

[northwichcat]

It sounds like Bolton council have asked Virgin to introduce a daily return working.

Transport bosses at Bolton Council have been in contact with Virgin Trains to see whether it would consider extending its morning services from Manchester Piccadilly to Bolton train station.

It would mean commuters could get a direct train from Bolton before 7.15am straight into the heart of the capital.

At a town hall scrutiny committee, Cllr David Chadwick, cabinet member for public transport and a committee member at Transport for Greater Manchester, laid out his vision for the scheme.

He said: “We’ve already approached the subject with Virgin about bringing the Pendolino service out along the Bolton corridor before it goes to Piccadilly, prior to 7am or 7.15am.

“Clearly they are quite willing to look at it.”

Following concerns from Cllr Martin Donaghey that there needed to be a return journey in the evening, Cllr Chadwick added: “We have asked for both ‘out’ and ‘in’ and they seem to be considering that as a serious entity.

“We have asked for services early in the morning and in the evening back to Bolton.”

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/11250015.Bolton_could_get_direct_train_to_London/

Maybe they could replace a double Voyager with a Pendolino on a Scottish working and use a double Voyager on a Manchester-London working but start it back from Bolton?

 

[cle]

Considering it takes the exact same route as changing at Piccadilly, how much time would it save? I'm assuming no stops at Salford or Oxford Road, due to platform lengths.

Or might a change at Wigan be quicker yet?

 

[northwichcat]

Considering it takes the exact same route as changing at Piccadilly, how much time would it save? I'm assuming no stops at Salford or Oxford Road, due to platform lengths.

Currently the quickest method for a departure between 06:45 and 07:30 involves a change at Piccadilly with a 20 minute connection time. The connecting trains call at Salford Crescent, Deansgate and Oxford Road so I imagine the total time saving for Bolton-Manchester Piccadilly (non-stop) then on to London could be around 25 minutes.

 

[Moonshot]

Wont happen - no demand.

 

[northwichcat]

Wont happen - no demand.

How many tickets are currently sold for Bolton to London? Virgin and First Group both included Bolton services in their bids for the next franchise so they must both think there's some demand.

 

[Moonshot]

How many tickets are currently sold for Bolton to London? Virgin and First Group both included Bolton services in their bids for the next franchise so they must both think there's some demand.

I have yet to see one ...... and if it does happen, it will be short lived. As I said, no demand.

 

[BantamMenace]

Surely a bigger market than the Skipton to London service by East Coast which has ran daily for years. The marginal cost of such extensions is surely minimal to the operator?

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I have yet to see one ...... and if it does happen, it will be short lived. As I said, no demand.

Based on what info? Most people didn't think GC services from Bradford/Wakefield/Pontefract to London could be profitable when there were direct and easy trains from Leeds to London, but they have obviously been sufficient to keep the service running. Similarly with EC's Harrogate and Skipton extensions.

 

[Moonshot]

Based on what info?? My own observations on ticket checks between Bolton and Manchester......and I cannot recall having seen one Bolton to London. Happy to be proved wrong and by all means drag this thread up.......but it wont happen

 

[northwichcat]

Based on what info?? My own observations on ticket checks between Bolton and Manchester......and I cannot recall having seen one Bolton to London. Happy to be proved wrong and by all means drag this thread up.......but it wont happen

How many TPE services between Bolton and Manchester have you ever worked? I imagine if someone asks for a First Class ticket they'll be told to use the TPE service to connect.

 

[Moonshot]

How many TPE services between Bolton and Manchester have you ever worked?

Considering I work for Northern Rail ( as you well know ) .....what a stupid question to ask.

I ll just re iterate.....this will not happen. Happy to be proven wrong. Bolton lost virtually all its direct services to Scotland.....which has had no impact whatsoever on passengers using Bolton station.

 

[northwichcat]

Considering I work for Northern Rail ( as you well know ) .....what a stupid question to ask.

I was trying to highlight the fact you don't work a representative sample of Bolton-Manchester services. If you want a pre-09:00 arrival in London or a post-20:00 departure from London you have to catch a connecting TPE service from Bolton, as the Northern services start later and finish earlier.

I ll just re iterate.....this will not happen. Happy to be proven wrong. Bolton lost virtually all its direct services to Scotland.....which has had no impact whatsoever on passengers using Bolton station.

Have you given your feedback to Virgin? Currently it's not a question of whether Bolton-London services will be introduced it's a question of whether it's soon or a few years down the line. Of course they may not survive in the long term. Maybe you could save them the hassle of introducing the service if you're so sure it'll fail.

 

[Moonshot]

I was trying to highlight the fact you don't work a representative sample of Bolton-Manchester services. If you want a pre-09:00 arrival in London or a post-20:00 departure from London you have to catch a connecting TPE service from Bolton, as the Northern services start later and finish earlier.



Have you given your feedback to Virgin? Currently it's not a question of whether Bolton-London services will be introduced it's a question of whether it's soon or a few years down the line. Of course they may not survive in the long term. Maybe you could save them the hassle of introducing the service if you're so sure it'll fail.

Why would I want to give Virgin my feedback? As I have stated ......this will not happen..end of. Happy to be proven wrong....

 

[northwichcat]

Why would I want to give Virgin my feedback? As I have stated ......this will not happen..end of. Happy to be proven wrong....

So Virgin and First Group critically analyse LENNON data spanning over years and both conclude that Bolton-London would be a viable proposition post-electrification of Bolton. The analysis would also have covered people who may drive from Bolton to Wigan North Western and future predicted demand. Your conclusion, based on the services you've worked over a short period since being a guard, is that the service isn't a viable proposition. I think I'll believe Virgin and First for now!

 

[Searle]

Wont happen - no demand.

well it will do one day

 

[tbtc]

Virgin and First Group both included Bolton services in their bids for the next franchise so they must both think there's some demand.

So Virgin and First Group critically analyse LENNON data spanning over years and both conclude that Bolton-London would be a viable proposition post-electrification of Bolton

You are making the assumption that Virgin and First both thought that there is a significant enough market for a through service, rather than "mentioning direct services from Bolton/ Shrewsbury/ Blackpool/ Stirling will be a nice bit of PR when bidding for the main prize of running Glasgow/ Manchester/ Birmingham to London".

I'm sure that there's *some* demand, but there's a difference between it being profitable to provide and it being a PR gimmick to "sell" a bid with a simple story for people in the media to understand

Currently the quickest method for a departure between 06:45 and 07:30 involves a change at Piccadilly with a 20 minute connection time. The connecting trains call at Salford Crescent, Deansgate and Oxford Road so I imagine the total time saving for Bolton-Manchester Piccadilly (non-stop) then on to London could be around 25 minutes.

That's assuming that any direct service could whisk past Salford Crescent/ Deansgate/ Oxford Road - a very busy bit of line where you are more likely to get stuck behind something else - so I'd stick with fifteen minutes (i.e. a five minute dwell at Piccadilly rather than a twenty minute connection)

Surely a bigger market than the Skipton to London service by East Coast which has ran daily for years. The marginal cost of such extensions is surely minimal to the operator?

Depends how serious they are - it's a lot of route knowledge/ training/ diagramming for the sake of a token one service a day just to keep local MPs/ council/ newspapers happy

Based on what info? Most people didn't think GC services from Bradford/Wakefield/Pontefract to London could be profitable when there were direct and easy trains from Leeds to London, but they have obviously been sufficient to keep the service running. Similarly with EC's Harrogate and Skipton extensions.

I don't think that GC *is* profitable from Bradford/Wakefield/Pontefract to London (but if they skim off enough Doncaster - London advance tickets plus the ORCATS share for that flow then there's maybe a chance).

What we are talking about in the Bolton case is the same TOC running Bolton - London as runs Manchester - London, so that's not an option.

 

[Howardh]

Not seen any through tickets Bolton/London?
Maybe that's because it's cheaper, off peak, on every Bolton/London journey I've EVER taken (and I've taken plenty) to have two separate tickets - BON/Man and Man/Euston. Just try the ticket line and see what you get!

Thanks for all the quick replies, and although the proposed outbound service would be of no use to me (too early) the return certainly would! It's always a hassle getting off the train at Picc, crossing to 13/14 and waiting for the next service in - especially as there are no toilets there, can be quite a long wait in the evenings as most (?) trains go nowadays from Vic.

Also it might attract Blackburn/Burnley based travellers - presume they make their way towards Preston rather than Manchester just now??

If it goes ahead, and is successful, then maybe more services could be introduced (and a first-class lounge at Trinity...no, behave!)?

 

[Moonshot]

As pointed out by TBTC, this is probably more of a PR gimmick.......if there was some serious demand from Bolton to London, then open the market up to genuine free market forces and see what happens........I would stake my mortgage on absolutely nothing.

 

[northwichcat]

Not seen any through tickets Bolton/London?
Maybe that's because it's cheaper, off peak, on every Bolton/London journey I've EVER taken (and I've taken plenty) to have two separate tickets - BON/Man and Man/Euston. Just try the ticket line and see what you get!

That's one of the things with cheap PTE tickets, it's quite often cheaper to split tickets. It's also worth noting season tickets issued for journeys within the TfGM area are valid for any train journey within the PTE area at weekends, so any season ticket holder with sense making a journey to London from the Bolton or Salford areas would buy a Stockport-London ticket if they were travelling via Manchester.

 

[Moonshot]

Makes you wonder why Bolton doesnt appear as a station on the HS2 map if there is such a great demand ...

 

[northwichcat]

Makes you wonder why Bolton doesnt appear as a station on the HS2 map if there is such a great demand ...

Maybe because Bolton doesn't need 3 or 4 tph to London unlike Birmingham and Manchester? Stoke won't be served by HS2 either yet gets 2tph to London.

 

[Moonshot]

lol .....

Anyway, as i said, it aint gonna happen.......and I rather suspect a whole load more of other ideas are going to be quashed.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I have yet to see one ...... and if it does happen, it will be short lived. As I said, no demand.

Is that the same "no demand" which applies to direct Bolton-Scotland services, and which generates so much heat on this forum?

Also for reference, VT (and First I think) proposed to serve Bolton at their commercial risk, not as part of the franchise commitment.
VT will in any case be using the route for Pendolino ECS workings after electrification, as they do with Voyagers now.

 

[Moonshot]

Is that the same "no demand" which applies to direct Bolton-Scotland services, and which generates so much heat on this forum?

Also for reference, VT (and First I think) proposed to serve Bolton at their commercial risk, not as part of the franchise commitment.
VT will in any case be using the route for Pendolino ECS workings after electrification, as they do with Voyagers now.

There has been plenty of heat generated about Bolton on this forum over the last few months........but that does not reflect the reality at the coalface so to speak, and I am certainly better qualified than most on here to see that.

 

[30907]

Depends how serious they are - it's a lot of route knowledge/ training/ diagramming for the sake of a token one service a day just to keep local MPs/ council/ newspapers happy

Except that Virgin will almost certainly want drivers to learn the route for diversion purposes (for when via Wigan is blocked).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Also it might attract Blackburn/Burnley based travellers - presume they make their way towards Preston rather than Manchester just now??

Unlikely as Preston-London will still be faster

 

[northwichcat]

Except that Virgin will almost certainly want drivers to learn the route for diversion purposes (for when via Wigan is blocked).

Yes. Virgin are keen for route knowledge to be retained of Chester-Northwich-Sandbach for occasional diversions, which proved useful a few weeks ago when the Crewe-Chester line was closed for 5 days so why would Manchester-Bolton-Leyland be different? That not only covers closures affecting Wigan but also between Crewe and Warrington.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is that the same "no demand" which applies to direct Bolton-Scotland services, and which generates so much heat on this forum?

In the 2011/12 year, 3,259 million journeys were recorded as being made to/from Bolton, of those 1,659 million journeys were between Manchester and Bolton. So that means half of journeys made from Bolton are to Manchester but it does also mean half of journeys are made to other destinations from Bolton as well. Consequently last year Network Rail said:

The Long Distance Market Study recommends an improvement in services from Blackpool, Preston and Bolton to other towns and cities in the North West and other regions.

 

[Moonshot]

This thread feels like we are just going over an old thread from a while ago.......for those of you who predicted doom and gloom for Bolton passengers, it absolutely HAS NOT happened.

 

[northwichcat]

This thread feels like we are just going over an old thread from a while ago.......for those of you who predicted doom and gloom for Bolton passengers, it absolutely HAS NOT happened.

You've concluded a lot from checking tickets on a small proportion of trains serving Bolton.

If there's no problems then why's Bolton going to benefit from extra capacity in December when only 2 DMUs will be released - there's many Northern routes which could do with extra capacity. And why 2 weeks ago did the Bolton West MP flag issues with TPE changes in parliament?

This summer is probably going to see more North West England passengers than ever before going to Scotland with the Commonwealth Games and then the Edinburgh festival soon after. As a lot of people plan such journeys in advance they are going to find out before they turn up at Bolton station that there are no longer direct services to Glasgow and Edinburgh so aren't going to get on a train you're working and complain about it to you.