unpaid fare notice

[baggyknees]

Yesterday I intended to travel from London to Newcastle with an advanced ticket. I have been unwell and whilst I was on the train I felt so unwell I had to terminate my journey part way. Of course this broke the conditions of carriage and I now have been issued with an unpaid fare notice. I plan to appeal the notice because I had every intention of travelling to my correct destination but I was too ill. What do you think the chance are?

 

[Greenback]

Just a thought, but are you covered by your travel insurance?

 

[Haywain]

I think your chances are quite poor. Don't forget that you should pay the UFN and appeal, rather than appealling before payment.

 

[cuccir]

Whereabouts did you get off at? Have you seen a doctor or other medical professional? Did you later complete your journey to Newcastle?

How long do you have to pay the UFN? If there's a little grace time, it might be worth calling and/or Tweeting East Coast's customer services team. East Coast have certainly rescinded demands for fares when people have stopped early on Advance fares before.

All that said, this has broken the T&Cs of the ticket that you purchased. That you were compelled to do so by illness is unfortunate for you, but not (legally) relevant as far as I know. Still, always scope for discretion etc.

However, like Haywain I would advise that it is best to pay the UFN before it is due, although I'd argue that you're better seeing if you can get in cancelled first, while leaving sufficient time for payment (you could safely send it next-day recorded delivery, say, 72 or even 48 hours before payment is due for example).

 

[Eca99mab]

It's funny how train companies won't let you do this yet they can cancel / delay / remove reservations etc whenever they feel like it.

And to think you are supposedly the customer.

Presumably East Coast? I travel with them nearly every day and they seem to let everyone off for not travelling on the correct train so to punish you for falling ill seems a bit harsh.

 

[jkdd77]

Under Condition 16 of the NRCoC, the fare due is the excess fare between the advance fare paid and the appropriate London- [actual destination station] single (which may be a SSS, depending on the time of day).

If you start, break and resume, or end your journey at an intermediate station when you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available at a ticket office for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start, break and resume, or end your journey at that station on the service(s) you have used.

If the UFN is for the wrong amount (for example, if it is the full single from London to the intermediate station at which the OP disembarked), then there might well be grounds for an appeal on the basis that the amount charged is incorrect. This assumes that the OP was on the correct train, in the correct class, and that the ticket would have been for the journey actually made but for the prohibition on BoJ.

Edit- It appears from a FoI request that East Coast's own policy states that flexible tickets that prohibit BoJ should be excessed to the appropriate single, and that advance tickets used on the wrong train should be treated as void and, again, charged the appropriate single. The policy is wholly silent on what happens if an advance ticket is used for BoJ or "stopping short", but I believe that the NRCoC should prevail in any event.

 

[Greenback]

It's funny how train companies won't let you do this yet they can cancel / delay / remove reservations etc whenever they feel like it.

And to think you are supposedly the customer.

Presumably East Coast? I travel with them nearly every day and they seem to let everyone off for not travelling on the correct train so to punish you for falling ill seems a bit harsh.

I don't see that the failure to put out reservations has any relevance to what happened to the OP. Also, the fact that some people are shown discretion does not mean that everyone will be.

As far as the UPFN is concerned, the OP has nothing to lose by contacting EC via social media asking for sympathetic consideration to their case, but technically they are due to pay the fare due for the portion of the journey that was undertaken without a valid ticket for that service.

 

[Nick W]

So for future reference, next time the OP feels unwell, the OP should pull the passcom, causing lots of delay, and demand an ambulance, wasting the taxpayers money and potentially putting someone else's life at risk, if he/she doesn't want an UFN?

 

[bb21]

I don't see that the failure to put out reservations has any relevance to what happened to the OP. Also, the fact that some people are shown discretion does not mean that everyone will be.

As far as the UPFN is concerned, the OP has nothing to lose by contacting EC via social media asking for sympathetic consideration to their case, but technically they are due to pay the fare due for the portion of the journey that was undertaken without a valid ticket for that service.

Some people will have a moan at any opportunity. :roll:

So for future reference, next time the OP feels unwell, the OP should pull the passcom, causing lots of delay, and demand an ambulance, wasting the taxpayers money and potentially putting someone else's life at risk, if he/she doesn't want an UFN?

You missed a smilie at the end of that.

In fact I believe that there is an understanding within the industry nowadays after previous high-profile cases that passengers would not be charged under the circumstances described by the OP. A new ticket would be required if he wished to continue his journey later.

 

[Suraggu]

It's funny how train companies won't let you do this yet they can cancel / delay / remove reservations etc whenever they feel like it.

And to think you are supposedly the customer.

Presumably East Coast? I travel with them nearly every day and they seem to let everyone off for not travelling on the correct train so to punish you for falling ill seems a bit harsh.

Not at Stations with Ticket barriers, EC are working together with other TOCs to enforce the rules on revenue protection. More staff training and strictly enforcing Advance ticket early get offs.

 

[baggyknees]

Thanks for your replies. I got off the train at Darlington. I did not continue to Newcastle but had I have done I would have bought a new ticket. I will pay the fine if necessary before the deadline but I don't think it is fair to charge me for being ill. I did go to the doctor the follow day and they will write a letter if necessary but for now I am going to send a copy of my prescription. I do understand the fine enforcement but I think given the circumstances they could have been more lenient. I was made to feel like a a criminal. Not what you want when you are ill!

 

[GadgetMan]

Thanks for your replies. I got off the train at Darlington. I did not continue to Newcastle but had I have done I would have bought a new ticket. I will pay the fine if necessary before the deadline but I don't think it is fair to charge me for being ill. I did go to the doctor the follow day and they will write a letter if necessary but for now I am going to send a copy of my prescription. I do understand the fine enforcement but I think given the circumstances they could have been more lenient. I was made to feel like a a criminal. Not what you want when you are ill!

Out of interest how did you continue your journey from Darlington to Newcastle if it wasn't by train?

Most passengers who feel unwell get off, visit a cafe, have a drink, sit on a chair/bench for a bit then when they feel better board a following train. In most cases from experience they speak to a member of staff either on board or at the station especially so when on an Advance ticket.

 

[Deerfold]

Out of interest how did you continue your journey from Darlington to Newcastle if it wasn't by train?

Most passengers who feel unwell get off, visit a cafe, have a drink, sit on a chair/bench for a bit then when they feel better board a following train. In most cases from experience they speak to a member of staff either on board or at the station especially so when on an Advance ticket.

In the bit you've quoted the OP has said they did not continue to Newcastle.

 

[GadgetMan]

In the bit you've quoted the OP has said they did not continue to Newcastle.

I know, which is why I'm asking the question seeing as the passenger "intended" to travel to Newcastle. Is the passenger still stood outside Darlington Station or was there a more convenient result of feeling unwell and getting off early?

 

[Tetchytyke]

If you were going to Newcastle, but you ended up in Darlington because of illness, what happened? You're presumably not still sitting on Darlington station with a packet of Neurofen, so what did happen? Did you buy a new ticket to Newcastle, did you return to London, or something else? It might be in your interests to explain this when you write to them and/or challenge the UFN (but be aware of admitting you "started short" on the return leg, if you had an Advance ticket).

Another trick might be to whinge about it in the Northern Echo. It's worked before with the barrier staff at Darlington, who are pretty hot on this sort of thing. Just ask the principal of Trevelyan College, University of Durham.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks for your replies. I got off the train at Darlington. I did not continue to Newcastle but had I have done I would have bought a new ticket. I will pay the fine if necessary before the deadline but I don't think it is fair to charge me for being ill. I did go to the doctor the follow day and they will write a letter if necessary but for now I am going to send a copy of my prescription. I do understand the fine enforcement but I think given the circumstances they could have been more lenient. I was made to feel like a a criminal. Not what you want when you are ill!

They are not allowed to issue a fine. As you say a fine is for criminals, but only a Court can declare someone a criminal and issue a fine.

The Train Company can charge the difference between the fare you paid (how much?) and the cheapest available ticket that would have allowed break of journey (which I can't calculate, as I don't know when you travelled or if you held a Railcard), this is not a fine, and would normally be for a relatively small amount of money however ATOC policy is not to charge anything in your circumstances.

If you draft up a letter, I will be happy to proof read it for you. Send me a PM with your draft.

I'd write to East Coast, ATOC (I know a good person to write to) and also Passenger Focus.

 

[Suraggu]

Thanks for your replies. I got off the train at Darlington. I did not continue to Newcastle but had I have done I would have bought a new ticket. I will pay the fine if necessary before the deadline but I don't think it is fair to charge me for being ill. I did go to the doctor the follow day and they will write a letter if necessary but for now I am going to send a copy of my prescription. I do understand the fine enforcement but I think given the circumstances they could have been more lenient. I was made to feel like a a criminal. Not what you want when you are ill!

I doubt you were made to feel like a criminal, every passenger who gets a UFN, with ticket or not always says they feel like a criminal, your only feel like a criminal when the police are called if you do not give your details and the BTP are called.
The Advance ticket rules are enforced, if East Coast let one off then you might as well let them all off. The railway is a business.

If you have a letter from your doctor then you do stand a good chance at winning an appeal, but I will say you were 30 mins from your destination so my guess is you really felt ill enough to get off and go to Darlingtons Urgent Care Centre and not be able to hold out another 30 mins. Mind you if the Train Guard called for an ambulance for you they would not have given you a UFN.

 

[yorkie]

The Advance ticket rules are enforced, if East Coast let one off then you might as well let them all off. The railway is a business..

That's strange, as I've had PMs from EC gateline staff stating it's EC policy not to charge in the circumstances described. High-up people in ATOC have also confirmed this is a national policy.

I'm aware of someone being charged an incorrect fare at Darlington. This not only got EC a load of negative publicity, but also resulted in the UFN being cancelled. I expect the UFN to be cancelled in this case too.

 

[38Cto15E]

If a passenger was taken ill say between York and Darlington and the train manager phoned for medical assistance to meet the train at Darlington, would the station staff ask for the passengers ticket (say Advance Kings Cross-Newcastle) at the barriers even if the passenger was on a stretcher? and then follow it up with a PFN.

 

[GadgetMan]

If a passenger was taken ill say between York and Darlington and the train manager phoned for medical assistance to meet the train at Darlington, would the station staff ask for the passengers ticket (say Advance Kings Cross-Newcastle) at the barriers even if the passenger was on a stretcher? and then follow it up with a PFN.

The barrier staff would refuse to let the paramedics through without a valid ticket so the passenger would not get the stretcher until they make their own way to the public side of barrier to meet the ambulance. Ticket would be inspected/UFN handed over as they crawl through gateline dying.

 

[Suraggu]

The barrier staff would refuse to let the paramedics through without a valid ticket so the passenger would not get the stretcher until they make their own way to the public side of barrier to meet the ambulance. Ticket would be inspected/UFN handed over as they crawl through gateline dying.

Absolute horseradish. Medical assistance is an entirely different situation.

 

[island]

I'm sure GadgetMan's tongue was firmly wedged in his cheek.

 

[SussexMan]

I'm sure GadgetMan's tongue was firmly wedged in his cheek.

Does he need some medical assistance then? Sounds nasty.

 

[Emyr]

He might need medical assistance getting it back out.

edit: hah! beaten to it!

 

[Flamingo]

Calling medical assistance to get through barriers does happen ...

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . don't go giving them any more 'bright ideas'! Please!




Anyway, I would be very pleased to hear back from baggyknees to learn how the matter is concluded.

This seems one of those cases which, if they'd only asked beforehand, it would all have been fine (unless PS was the guard!), but not having asked, then they fall foul of the rules (and as Suraggu correctly recalls from the EC briefing to Guards, a policy has been issued which seeks to treat 'stopping short' as the breach of Conditions which it expressly is).

 

[jkdd77]

...
This seems one of those cases which, if they'd only asked beforehand, it would all have been fine (unless PS was the guard!), but not having asked, then they fall foul of the rules (and as Suraggu correctly recalls from the EC briefing to Guards, a policy has been issued which seeks to treat 'stopping short' as the breach of Conditions which it expressly is).

If the OP only fell ill during the journey, then it presumably wouldn't have occurred to him/her to ask beforehand, since he/she was healthy enough at the time, and genuinely intended to make the full journey.

I don't deny that the OP breached the conditions of travel, but do think that, under the NRCoC, and under my personal interpretation of East Coast's published documentation (as linked to previously in the thread), the correct remedy would have been to charge an excess fare rather than for a new ticket, albeit that SSSs purchased 'on the day' are already very expensive.

Having just said that, I also acknowledge that a passenger who does not present a valid ticket when obliged to do so, (and an advance ticket is not valid for a shorter journey), is not absolutely entitled to an excess fare, and may instead be reported for prosecution under byelaw 18.

 

[pethadine82]

Not at Stations with Ticket barriers, EC are working together with other TOCs to enforce the rules on revenue protection. More staff training and strictly enforcing Advance ticket early get offs.

yes this is true, travelling from york to Peterborough, FCC were doing a block at Peterborough, and they were checking tickets on the East Coast train that I just got off and making sure that the arrival time was correct, some people got caught out, not sure about their fate!

 

[yorkie]

I'm still willing to proof read a letter....

 

[Haywain]

I don't deny that the OP breached the conditions of travel, but do think that, under the NRCoC, and under my personal interpretation of East Coast's published documentation (as linked to previously in the thread), the correct remedy would have been to charge an excess fare rather than for a new ticket, albeit that SSSs purchased 'on the day' are already very expensive.

The OP hasn't stated how much the Unpaid Fares Notice was issued for, and East Coast do issue them in respect of excess fares, so it may well be in respect of the appropriate amount for the circumstances. However, to the best of my knowledge, UFN's are not issued by barrier staff at any East Coast station - I am therefore curious to know when and where it was issued.