Mid Cheshire line - a new station?

[Holly]

The biggest issue is that where Hartford Station is presently sited (on a two track section) impairs the WCML capacity significantly every time a train is stopped there. This is probably the greatest impediment to the open access operators who wish to add Hartford to their services (notably between Blackpool and the South).

A small distance away and it is already quad tracked. The other and smaller benefits of relocation are numerous, but just that (smaller).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Those distances you've given would put Hartford station north of Acton Bridge station! ...

You need a better measuring stick.

It is 2 miles and 54 chains from Acton Bridge Station to Hartford Station.
Source:
Railway Clearing House distances between the stations and junctions of the railways of which the clearing system is in operation volume VI, published January 1884.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The biggest issue is that where Hartford Station is presently sited (on a two track section) impairs the WCML capacity significantly every time a train is stopped there. This is probably the greatest impediment to the open access operators who wish to add Hartford to their services (notably between Blackpool and the South).

What you have said here concerning the WCML capacity being affected every time that a stop is made there is a perfect example of why, further up the WCML, there should be no stations re-opened in the Preston to Lancaster section, which is two track as is the case in your area at Hartford.

 

[northwichcat]

You need a better measuring stick.

It is 2 miles and 54 chains from Acton Bridge Station to Hartford Station.
Source:
Railway Clearing House distances between the stations and junctions of the railways of which the clearing system is in operation volume VI, published January 1884.

I didn't measure the Acton Bridge-Hartford distance. I wrongly assumed your Acton Bridge-Hartford curve distance was correct and as moving Hartford station 1 mile North would put it 0.44 miles north of the Hartford curve, moving Acton Bridge to the Hartford curve would have put it south of Hartford IF Hartford was moved 1 mile north.

 

[Emyr]

The rail routes to travel between Knutsford and St Helens involve changing at Chester or Manchester Piccadilly.

On examining the map, I found that east of Northwich there is a tempting crossing of the Mid-Cheshire line and what I assume is WCML (between Crewe and Warrington).

Greenbank (A) and Hartford (E) are only 1 mile apart.
Acton (I) is 2.7 miles up the main line from Hartford.

A station on Hodge Lane would offer Northwich and other rural Cheshire settlements far better links to commuting and leisure destinations.

There doesn't seem to be much obvious impediment to such a station.

 

[northwichcat]

The problem will be LM services - they can only usually call at 2 stations between Crewe and Runcorn, which is why Winsford has some gaps in service, so that Acton Bridge gets some trains. Hartford is a lot closer to the village and the numerous schools and colleges than your proposed location so it would be unpopular to remove it as a calling point for the services used most by the villagers and scholars especially at peak time.

As an alternative idea there's proposals to run a Manchester-Greenbank semi-fast every hour and a proposal to run a Birmingham-Preston slow including calls at Hartford and Warrington Bank Quay, so extend the Manchester-Greenbank semi-fast to Warrington and connectivity is vastly improved with little infrastructure investment required.

 

[8A Rail]

St Helens? Junction or Central? Why would you wish to travel between Knutsford and St Helens? Even if you had a station at location "I", still need to change at WBQ or Wigan NW. Going via Chester, means 3 trains in total! Going via Manchester Piccadilly, is not possible as no trains go to St Helens (either station) as far as I am aware. Am I missing something or you have stated incorrect location?

 

[northwichcat]

Going via Manchester Piccadilly, is not possible as no trains go to St Helens (either station) as far as I am aware.

Liverpool-Manchester Airport via Manchester Piccadilly services call at St Helens Junction.

 

[Polarbear]

I'm sure that the erstwhile Cheshire County Council once had a plan for a "Mid Cheshire Parkway" which would have resulted in a station being constructed at the point where the WCML & Mid Cheshire lines intersect?

Indeed, it appears I said much the same several years ago;

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=30378

 

[yorkie]

I'm sure that the erstwhile Cheshire County Council once had a plan for a "Mid Cheshire Parkway" which would have resulted in a station being constructed at the point where the WCML & Mid Cheshire lines intersect?

Indeed, it appears I said much the same several years ago

Good point; I've merged relevant threads into one.
Edit: Sorry, old thread which I merged into was locked, it's unlocked now!

 

[Joseph_Locke]

What you have said here concerning the WCML capacity being affected every time that a stop is made there is a perfect example of why, further up the WCML, there should be no stations re-opened in the Preston to Lancaster section, which is two track as is the case in your area at Hartford.

Except at Oubeck, opposite the University of Galgate ...

 

[theshillito]

I don't know what the status is with Alliance Rail's proposals for GNWR, but they make reference to "Winsford Parkway" http://www.alliancerail.co.uk/gnwr/

 

[northwichcat]

I don't know what the status is with Alliance Rail's proposals for GNWR, but they make reference to "Winsford Parkway" http://www.alliancerail.co.uk/gnwr/

Alliance have been told by ORR they won't be given any paths to operate services on the WCML ahead of the next WCML recast, which won't happen before a new West Coast franchise is awarded.

Ian Yeowart admitted 'Winsford Parkway' might not work in practice due to the subsidence risk in the area and has Hartford down as a back up calling point. Originally Grand Central had a competing bid calling at Hartford so Alliance wanted to put in a different bid but now Alliance and Grand Central have the same parent company so aren't competing with one another.

 

[Bill Stanier]

At one time there was talk of extending the line through Manchester Airport (initially in tunnel, presumably) to join the Mid Cheshire Line near Mobberley for a northwards connection to WCML, making MA a through station.

Anyone know if that's still being considered?

 

[Bevan Price]

Can an I add - going back to the original question - that in the early days the original route north from Crewe was planned as going direct to Middlewich, then Northwich, then over roughly via Marbury, Cogshall, Bartington and then keeping to the north side of the Weaver valley would have retaken the same route as today just north of Weaver Junction. The route made a lot of sense in that it didn't cross the Weaver twice like the present route but would have had some complexity at Northwich in crossing the CLC at right-angles. Perhaps a two level station aka Tamworth and Lichfield?

I doubt that there would have been any problem at Northwich. The WCML was built long before the CLC existed. If the WCML had passed through Northwich, then it is very likely that the CLC line would have had direct connections onto that version of "WCML".

 

[Joseph_Locke]

At one time there was talk of extending the line through Manchester Airport (initially in tunnel, presumably) to join the Mid Cheshire Line near Mobberley for a northwards connection to WCML, making MA a through station.

Anyone know if that's still being considered?

It hasn't gone away and the route under the Airport is still being protected for it.

 

[Bill Stanier]

It hasn't gone away and the route under the Airport is still being protected for it.

What from? Moles?

Sorry, couldn't resist it!

 

[snowball]

It's a good job the WCML wasn't routed through Northwich!

http://www.geographical.co.uk/magazine/northwich_jan_08.html

 

[Joseph_Locke]

What from? Moles?

Terminal stands, fuel tanks and lines, lighting masts ...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Except at Oubeck, opposite the University of Galgate ...

Is it just to the south of the Oubeck Loops that a six-arch viaduct carries the WCML over the River Condor ?

 

[Emyr]

What from? Moles?

Terminal stands, fuel tanks and lines, lighting masts ...

Deep concrete piles supporting hotels...

 

[northwichcat]

It's a good job the WCML wasn't routed through Northwich!

http://www.geographical.co.uk/magazine/northwich_jan_08.html

Well that photo is of the Castle area of Northwich, which is a couple hundred yards from the village of Hartford. Guess what goes through Hartford?

Winsford, also on the WCML, has suffered from subsidence very close to where the WCML is.

Maybe that's why the WCML through Hartford and Winsford is 2 track not 4 track?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Anyone know if that's still being considered?

Yes it was mentioned in a recent Network Rail document as a potential CP6 scheme.

 

[Bill Stanier]

Brine subsidence used to be a major problem on the Crewe - Sandbach part of the line to Manchester, leading to very severe speed restictions over the roller-coaster twisted track. Brine subsidence is not stabilised and the line speed is raised accordingly.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Is it just to the south of the Oubeck Loops that a six-arch viaduct carries the WCML over the River Condor ?

Yes, it is.

 

[Holly]

... Maybe that's why the WCML through Hartford and Winsford is 2 track not 4 track?
Yes it was mentioned in a recent Network Rail document as a potential CP6 scheme.

As previously discussed, due to housing developments and short of tunneling, the only way to four-track through Hartford Station is to eliminate Hartford Station and run tracks on the land presently occupied by the platforms.
And presumably build a new replacement station a half mile or so North (or just possibly to the South).

However, four-tracking where the historic Weaver viaducts are sited would be a major issue for the NIMBYs.

A tunnel under Hartford was examined as part of early HS2 investigations, the land contours fit reasonably well.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

However, four-tracking where the historic Weaver viaducts are sited would be a major issue for the NIMBYs.

There is nothing more certain that such a proposal to which you allude would most certainly bring out some of the major national bodies who concern themselves with nationally known monuments, not just those to which you refer as NIMBYs.

 

[stockport1]

My unlimited cheshire cash wishlist:

4 track winsford-warrington
electrify + 4 track mid -cheshire northwich to knutsford
rebuild hartford station where the WCML meets mid-cheshire 4 platforms
rebuild winsford station at bostock road-4 platforms
rebuild lostock-grahlam station into park and ride
twin track middlewich line + electrify
new stations at
rudheath and middlewich
4 track and platforms at northwich.

altrincham - remove metrolink.reinstate heavy rail to central.
reinstate 4 platform stations at sale etc and 4 track.
providing heavy rail alternative mainline from manchester - south + wales.

 

[Bill Stanier]

I agree remove Metro from Altrincham and re-instate heavy rail (that vital piece of the south Manchester rail network should never have been taken away). But no need to bring back Central is there?

Why 4-track Northwich to Knutsford?

You missed the Airport to Mobberley link!

Re-double the singled (to make M60 bridges cheaper! How car-centric was that bit of thinking?) parts of the Skelton Junction to Stockport line.

 

[Holly]

Electrification of the three miles from Northwich to Hartford curve (near Weaverham and Acton Bridge). Together with reinstatement of the trailing crossover immediately North of Acton Bridge Station.

Small cost, huge new service opportunities. Not even on the radar.

 

[Gareth]

Runcorn was a dreadful experience when I was last there. A group of teenagers, totally rotten on cheap cider, were roaming the platforms. Couldn't wait for the train to show up.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Runcorn was a dreadful experience when I was last there. A group of teenagers, totally rotten on cheap cider, were roaming the platforms. Couldn't wait for the train to show up.

"Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps" was not chosen to be set in Runcorn for its aesthetic properties....