Class 170/3 cascade to Chiltern postponed/cancelled?

[swt_passenger]

I was at a meeting in Basingstoke attended by Stuart Palmer, who was SWT's MD back in about 2008, at which he referred to their plans to run some 10-coach trains from Salisbury into London. It was about the time they'd just acquired the eleven class 158s. But although the platforms were extended the lengthened trains didn't appear.

The reason was probably something to do with those DMU trains which run peak-hours diagrams from Basingstoke towards Southampton. I wonder if SWT were expecting to operate them with EMUs and then decided to use the EMUs on some other services.

I think the simple answer is yes, because the tender issued in April 2009 for significantly more EMUs (120-180 vehicles) should have allowed for internal cascades by about 2011/2 - all things being equal a greater number of 10 car services from Salisbury could have run by then.

As we now know, after many delays, that tender eventually turned into the ongoing 458/5 and 456 conversion projects. Even if they are all in service by next summer's timetable change, say April or May 2015, that will have been 6 years since the process began. The 10 car platform lengthening from Salisbury towards Basingstoke was underway in late 2008, but it was quite a while before even the single 10 car train ran.

 

[Muzer]

Would you really want to join the trains at Basingstoke or Salisbury in the morning peak? There is always a risk with joining/splitting trains not working out, which is perhaps why the train is kept at full length from the start?

I never tended to be at Salisbury in the morning peak, but it wouldn't surprise me if trains did split and join there - it happens through most of the day. Given how well the 158s/159s are maintained, they probably have it down to a tee.

On the other hand, I expect a split/join at Basingstoke would rather be out of the question. I'd doubt if it even has the capacity for that in the morning peak, unlike Salisbury - given the number of services (1tph Weymouth (stopping at Basingstoke) each direction, 1tph non-stop same, 1tph stopper Poole each direction, 1tph Basingstoke to Waterloo locals (obviously need to turn around), 1tph CrossCountry (with some extensions for occasional 2 trains in one hour) each direction, 1tph Portsmouth via Eastleigh each direction, plus any peak-time local Southampton stoppers (can't remember exactly what happens in the morning peak but it wouldn't surprise me to see Basingstoke to Southampton services)). That doesn't leave much time for 158s/159s to split/join on just four platforms (I'm ignoring platform 5 and the Reading locals as they're pretty much self-contained, as far as platform capacity goes at least).

 

[WatcherZero]

http://www.transportforgreatermanch...loads/file/4826/item_04_minutes_28_march_2014

Does anyone have more details on this? If Chiltern are not taking on the 170/3s next year what will they be using instead or will the extra capacity for Chiltern be delayed?

Draft minutes have now been amended at adoption to say:

Members were pleased to note that DfT had confirmed that the proposal to
reallocate Class 170 diesel units from the north of England to the south east
would not now take place until April 2015.

 

[swt_passenger]

Draft minutes have now been amended at adoption to say:

Members were pleased to note that DfT had confirmed that the proposal to reallocate Class 170 diesel units from the north of England to the south east would not now take place until April 2015.

I'm more puzzled than before now. Are they really minuting that they are pleased that the reallocation will now take place at the same time the DfT had previously stated? Had it ever been any earlier, given that April 2015 is when TPE's lease expires?

Or has someone got the year wrong this time?

 

[Stats]

Perhaps they meant May 2015 as that is what DfT had previously stated discussions were taking place for TPE to retain the units until then. DfT has also said there was an opportunity for TPE to retain some of the units until March 2016.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yeah I think Dft Intervened, originally they would have had to hand over a couple of units for training before the whole fleet went off lease. Fleets dont move en masse one day, their is a overlapping time period of driver/technician training before being joined by the rest of the fleet.

 

[northwichcat]

TPE's lease on the 170/3s expires 4th February 2015 and Porterbrook have agreed a deal with Chiltern to take on the 170/3s after then until 2021 but don't need them in service until around August 2015.

There is a clause in the lease which allows the 170/3s to automatically transfer to the holder of the next TPE franchise for a period of up to 28 weeks* if required. It looks like that option has been exercised to ensure that the December 2014-May 2015 timetable can remain exactly as planned. (If TPE got 6 x 3 car DMUs or 90mph 158s as replacement then the timetable may need adjusting to allow for that.)

* I think 28 weeks is the longest possible period between a franchise end date and the next timetable change date.

 

[t_star2001uk]

Yeah I think Dft Intervened, originally they would have had to hand over a couple of units for training before the whole fleet went off lease. Fleets dont move en masse one day, their is a overlapping time period of driver/technician training before being joined by the rest of the fleet.

AFAIK they will be going from TPE to either Doncaster or Loughborough to be reconfigured and reliveried and will then be coming to us on Chiltern redesignated as 168/3.

 

[swt_passenger]

TPE's lease on the 170/3s expires 4th February 2015 and Porterbrook have agreed a deal with Chiltern to take on the 170/3s after then until 2021 but don't need them in service until around August 2015.

When I mentioned the expiry date a few posts ago, I was only going by your info in post #9 on page 1, which fairly unambiguously had it as 'April 2015'.

Whatever the accurate date turns out to be, all this political debate (over about 3 or 4 months at the most) seems a waste of meeting time...

 

[northwichcat]

When I mentioned the expiry date a few posts ago, I was only going by your info in post #9 on page 1, which fairly unambiguously had it as 'April 2015'.

Whatever the accurate date turns out to be, all this political debate (over about 3 or 4 months at the most) seems a waste of meeting time...

I was obviously getting mixed up with what was previously the Northern lease expiry date of 01/04/2014 and the current TPE lease expiry date of 04/02/2015.

 

[Class83]

Has there been any further info on what will replace these at TPE? Other than the 319s allowing a reverse cascade of Northern 158s.

 

[northwichcat]

Other than the 319s allowing a reverse cascade of Northern 158s.

That's effectively been ruled out as Northern have a guarantee in their Direct Award that they won't lose any DMUs as a result of gaining EMUs. Although, I suppose the possibility of Northern 158s can't completely be ruled out if Northern get replacement DMUs from other operator e.g. 156s from Scotrail.

An option could be loco hauled - TPE are running some loco hauled services on 6th July as discussed in this thread: http://railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=98482&page=3 so loco hauled returning to North TPE isn't just a fantasy option even if a more permanent return is at the moment.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

An option could be loco hauled - TPE are running some loco hauled services on 6th July as discussed in this thread: http://railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=98482&page=3 so loco hauled returning to North TPE isn't just a fantasy option even if a more permanent return is at the moment.

Yet another possible use for the 68s, then!

 

[MCR247]

That's effectively been ruled out as Northern have a guarantee in their Direct Award that they won't lose any DMUs as a result of gaining EMUs. Although, I suppose the possibility of Northern 158s can't completely be ruled out if Northern get replacement DMUs from other operator e.g. 156s from Scotrail.

Ha! ScotRail give up units

 

[northwichcat]

Ha! ScotRail give up units

Why do you think I said Scotrail 156s going to Northern and Northern releasing 158s to TPE and not Scotrail sending 158s to TPE?

 

[MCR247]

Why do you think I said Scotrail 156s going to Northern and Northern releasing 158s to TPE and not Scotrail sending 158s to TPE?

Good point, however I can't see ScotRail giving up units for a long time!

 

[Class83]

Why do you think I said Scotrail 156s going to Northern and Northern releasing 158s to TPE and not Scotrail sending 158s to TPE?

I'm still not sure where Scotrail is supposed to magic up the units from, given they are currently running the loco hauled service due to a shortage of DMUs. Unless there is evidence of more loco hauled services, perhaps Chiltern can lend them some mk3 carriages...

 

[thealexweb]

Good point, however I can't see ScotRail giving up units for a long time!

As someone who lives in Edinburgh I can safely say there is oversupply of rolling stock in some areas of Scotland, Edinburgh being one of them.

For example, all services between Edinburgh and Newcraighall could be run with a 153 (including peak time services) and still have seats to spare. I have filmed services on this route twice now and reviewing the footage have noticed 158 units departing empty, and by empty I mean zero passengers.

Also the Edinburgh to North Berwick / Dunbar services. Only on two / three services per day during the peak are all seats full. The rest of the day services run with seats half empty at best.

It frustrates me to see the wastage here and then go to back to Bolton, where I am originally from, and try to squeeze on to a single Class 142 to get to Manchester.

 

[Class83]

As someone who lives in Edinburgh I can safely say there is oversupply of rolling stock in some areas of Scotland, Edinburgh being one of them.

For example, all services between Edinburgh and Newcraighall could be run with a 153 (including peak time services) and still have seats to spare. I have filmed services on this route twice now and reviewing the footage have noticed 158 units departing empty, and by empty I mean zero passengers.

Also the Edinburgh to North Berwick / Dunbar services. Only on two / three services per day during the peak are all seats full. The rest of the day services run with seats half empty at best.

It frustrates me to see the wastage here and then go to back to Bolton, where I am originally from, and try to squeeze on to a single Class 142 to get to Manchester.

I think most of the Newcraighall services are effectively stock positioning moves as they need to clear through platforms at Waverley and turn the trains around somewhere quieter. The North Berwick services being full and standing only in peaks is what I'd expect for a commuter service, the stock requirement is based on what is needed at 8am not 11am. The is a lot of stock around London that is either running half empty or sitting on a depot during the day.

I'm not saying that the situation at Northern Rail is acceptable, but that from what I've seen Scotrail run and fill all of their stock during the peaks.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm still not sure where Scotrail is supposed to magic up the units from, given they are currently running the loco hauled service due to a shortage of DMUs. Unless there is evidence of more loco hauled services, perhaps Chiltern can lend them some mk3 carriages...

How many 158s will be released from Glasgow services after the Commonwealth Games? I thought Scotrail were holding on to diesel stock that has been freed up by electrification work due to the high level of passengers expected for the Commonwealth Games. Also the Campaign for Borders Rail assumes 158867 to 158872, 1588786 and 1588789 will be surplus to requirements on existing services next year and some of which can be moved on the re-opened Borders Line. (They want them properly refurbished first though!)

 

[thealexweb]

How many 158s will be released from Glasgow services after the Commonwealth Games? I thought Scotrail were holding on to diesel stock that has been freed up by electrification work due to the high level of passengers expected for the Commonwealth Games. Also the Campaign for Borders Rail assumes 158867 to 158872, 1588786 and 1588789 will be surplus to requirements on existing services next year and some of which can be moved on the re-opened Borders Line. (They want them properly refurbished first though!)

Its amazing that campaign group are making demands like that. They should be greatful for that they are getting rolling stock as good as 158s. What about stations like Wigan Wallgate that alone have higher passenger numbers than all the borders stations are likely to have put together yet has never seen anything of higher quality than a Class 156.

 

[Starmill]

Its amazing that campaign group are making demands like that. They should be greatful for that they are getting rolling stock as good as 158s. What about stations like Wigan Wallgate that alone have higher passenger numbers than all the borders stations are likely to have put together yet has never seen anything of higher quality than a Class 156.

They wanted 170s!

I can see their point... The end to end journey time will be slightly longer than they wanted and they will have one chance to make good first impressions on the line to get people to switch from cars to the train. Good quality rolling stock is clearly essential for this.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

* I think 28 weeks is the longest possible period between a franchise end date and the next timetable change date.

28 weeks I'm pretty sure is the standard 7-period automatic franchise extension period that DfT can invoke without renegotiating the franchise terms.

 

[northwichcat]

They wanted 170s!

As Scotrail have no 2 car 170s that was a bit optimistic to hope for 3 cars initially on a diesel route. Maybe LM would have been happy to swap 8 x 2 car 170s and 8 x 153s for 8 x 3 car 170s though?

 

[Grumpy]

Its amazing that campaign group are making demands like that. They should be greatful for that they are getting rolling stock as good as 158s. What about stations like Wigan Wallgate that alone have higher passenger numbers than all the borders stations are likely to have put together yet has never seen anything of higher quality than a Class 156.

You're forgetting your place in the British hierarchy.
Londoners get their snouts in the trough first. Then preference is given to the Scots, then the Welsh. Provincial England is the bottom of the pile.

 

[thealexweb]

You're forgetting your place in the British hierarchy.
Londoners get their snouts in the trough first. Then preference is given to the Scots, then the Welsh. Provincial England is the bottom of the pile.

It is annoying how Scotland gets better treatment than the north west. I would love to see a comparison on how many coaches per head are allocated in Scotland and Greater Manchester (similar population size?).

 

[northwichcat]

It is annoying how Scotland gets better treatment than the north west. I would love to see a comparison on how many coaches per head are allocated in Scotland and Greater Manchester (similar population size?).

Yorkshire & Humber is approx. the same population as Scotland. Greater Manchester only has around half as many people but the North West overall has around 2 million more residents than Scotland.

 

[Class83]

How many 158s will be released from Glasgow services after the Commonwealth Games? I thought Scotrail were holding on to diesel stock that has been freed up by electrification work due to the high level of passengers expected for the Commonwealth Games. Also the Campaign for Borders Rail assumes 158867 to 158872, 1588786 and 1588789 will be surplus to requirements on existing services next year and some of which can be moved on the re-opened Borders Line. (They want them properly refurbished first though!)

Are those the Scotrail 158s with the old seats? If so they need refurbished anyway and while there is some slack between the Cumbernauld electrification and the Borders Railway opening is as good a time as any. Though presumably on any given day the 158s will just come from a general pool at Haymarket depot and not have a subfleet for the Borders?

 

[LBSCR Times]

You're forgetting your place in the British hierarchy.
Londoners get their snouts in the trough first......

Yes, where are the 170/171's coming from for the Uckfield line, that are being talked about, to make the peak trains up to 10 cars.
NR are planning to extend the platforms down that route to enable this to happen, having told staff locally that the units would be coming from 'Up North'!

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Can anyone give a logical and commercially sound reason why Scotrail can not and will not release a load of 170s when the wires go up and they get EMUs?
The answer "Because they dont want to" holds no water!