Penalty Fare attempt at Norwich

[LowLevel]

Yet XC, that well known, highly profitable (ha) train operator managed to take it back in house - and even pays it's trolley operatives more than some TOCs pay their guards - strange that!

Funnily enough the contractors, cleaning and catering, at our TOC are pretty much constantly in a dispute/industrial action situation over being treated like human rubbish, and staffing availability is appalling - 'catering alteration' messages pinging about all day especially at weekends.

Nothing like good morale in the workforce - as a result if they're not about I certainly don't do their duties on my trains, so they go around full of rubbish all day with no refreshments. If the passengers complain it might make the company value the service they are provided with more to put the contractor under pressure.

EDIT: Going to step back away from the debate as this is well and truly threadjacking, but I'm afraid it's a bit of a 'touch a nerve' situation!

 

[bb21]

As for Norwich FC,

In which league do they play?

 

[RJ]

No idea, not a sport I follow! Post duly amended.

 

[plastictaffy]

Think I might start a website. www.shoparailwaydingleberry.co.uk

 

[RJ]

Think I might start a website. www.shoparailwaydingleberry.co.uk

To be honest, that's not really what I intend to do. I'm just fed up with these things happening - and further dismayed at the concept of it happening to other passengers who aren't in the wrong. It has gotten to the point where I'm prepared to offer my spare time to work on something that would alleviate the problems in the long term.

 

[island]

They may or may not be paid less after agency fees - I should know employing booking office staff and the like, but apparently you know more than me so I shall bow to your infinite wisdom on that one.

And also once again you claim this is for all TOCs yet you only point to G4S and Northern on their revenue duties. And once again I shall point out that not all TOCs do so but again I'll bow to your obviously far superior knowledge on the subject given that you dont even work in the industry.

I've had some experience employing agency staff. We were given a chart saying £x per hour paid to the employee would turn into a cost to us of £y after holiday pay, agency fees, employer's NI, VAT, and probably a few other things. I can't remember what the precise amounts were but I do remember £12/hour to the employee turned into £20.something to us. The cost of a permanent member of staff would be between £x and £y.

 

[talldave]

VAT is irrelevant to a VAT registered business, the company simply pays it and claims it back so it doesn't add to the cost. And would a company be paying employer's NI on agency staff? There should be no pension contributions and no severance pay when you don't need them any more.

 

[island]

Not all businesses can reclaim VAT, particularly if their supplies are exempt from VAT. I forget whether rail travel is exempt or zero-rated.

The agency pays employer's NI but charges it through the the employee.

 

[Deerfold]

Not all businesses can reclaim VAT, particularly if their supplies are exempt from VAT. I forget whether rail travel is exempt or zero-rated.

The agency pays employer's NI but charges it through the the employee.

Found someone who seems to know!

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=552206&postcount=12

Passenger transport is zero-rated, which is much better than being exempt!

 

[island]

I'm allowed to forget things!

 

[Deerfold]

I'm allowed to forget things!

No criticism intended - I found it on a google search, not of this site specifically...

 

[Tetchytyke]

I drive for a bus operator but am considered as "self employed." It's fine for me - I'm casual and fit it around other commitments. One benefit is the way I pay tax - I pay HMRC directly, so I get to rack up reward points on the credit card.

Less than ideal if it's your primary source of income however.

There are pros and cons of being self-employed. The big pro is where you have genuine flexibility in what you do and where and when you do it (which coincidentally is how self-employed status is defined).

The big con is that self-employed people are not treated as "workers" and are not entitled to even the most basic employment protection. Someone who is self-employed is not protected by the National Minimum Wage, for instance, hence why some employers try to define the low-paid as "self employed".

 

[RJ]

The big con is that self-employed people are not treated as "workers" and are not entitled to even the most basic employment protection. Someone who is self-employed is not protected by the National Minimum Wage, for instance, hence why some employers try to define the low-paid as "self employed".

There is that. Every operator wants the best drivers, those who always turn up when they agree to work, don't blow out, crash the buses or wind up the customers, so pay tends to be very competitive wherever you go. Market rate is about £10.50 - £11 per hour. A good incentive is normally a guaranteed minimum day's pay of 7.5+ hours, even if you're only doing an hour's work. They also pay for things like tachographs and the required ongoing industrial vocational training (Driver CPC). In return, they get loyalty from good drivers. The industry is riddled with drivers with "colourful" backgrounds, people who have either been sacked or jumped before they were pushed from other operators.

As you say, the downside is the lack of protection - they could just stop asking you to work rather than train you if you're rubbish, or if they lose contracts. Precisely why it's good to have other things on the go! Some people do treat it as a full time gig, doing school bus work and regular jobs but I really wouldn't want to.

It works in that industry - but I can't imagine that self employed "full time employees" get such a good deal where in industries where people capable of doing the work are in plentiful supply.

 

[jopsuk]

Whilst the way you were treated does sound shoddy, I am a little confused as to why you thought you could get a ticket from Ely station at 1am, and when you were then travelling?

The last train from Ely to Norwich is at 2310. The first is at 0620
The last train from Ely to anywhere at all is at 0026 (to Kings Lynn, currently replaced most night by a later bus). The first is at 0525 (to London)

National Rail enquiries gives the ticket office hours as

Opening hours
Monday - Friday 06:00 - 20:00
Saturday 06:00 - 20:00
Sunday 08:30 - 18:30

It does however give "Information services " opening hours as

Monday - Friday 05:15 - 01:00
Saturday 05:15 - 01:00
Sunday 08:00 - 01:00

I'm not sure what "Information services" actually comprises of, but it is fairly clear that it is not ticket selling, no matter how hard you may try and argue otherwise. If you can show that before this incident the website information was different then that's another matter- it would hardly be the first time information has been amended after someone has caught them out.

 

[RJ]

Whilst the way you were treated does sound shoddy, I am a little confused as to why you thought you could get a ticket from Ely station at 1am, and when you were then travelling?

The last train from Ely to Norwich is at 2310. The first is at 0620
The last train from Ely to anywhere at all is at 0026 (to Kings Lynn, currently replaced most night by a later bus). The first is at 0525 (to London)

National Rail enquiries gives the ticket office hours as


It does however give "Information services " opening hours as


I'm not sure what "Information services" actually comprises of, but it is fairly clear that it is not ticket selling, no matter how hard you may try and argue otherwise. If you can show that before this incident the website information was different then that's another matter- it would hardly be the first time information has been amended after someone has caught them out.

I wasn't travelling at 1am - I was travelling at a time the ticket office was supposed to be open, well before 20:00. The notice on the ticket office window said it had closed around midday and would re-open the following morning.

I quoted from the wrong tab on the NRE site - 20:00 would have been the correct time, not 1am - sorry for any confusion.

 

[Deerfold]

Whilst the way you were treated does sound shoddy, I am a little confused as to why you thought you could get a ticket from Ely station at 1am, and when you were then travelling?

The last train from Ely to Norwich is at 2310. The first is at 0620
The last train from Ely to anywhere at all is at 0026 (to Kings Lynn, currently replaced most night by a later bus). The first is at 0525 (to London)

National Rail enquiries gives the ticket office hours as


It does however give "Information services " opening hours as


I'm not sure what "Information services" actually comprises of, but it is fairly clear that it is not ticket selling, no matter how hard you may try and argue otherwise. If you can show that before this incident the website information was different then that's another matter- it would hardly be the first time information has been amended after someone has caught them out.

Surely it makes no difference what the claimed ticket office hours are? The ticket office was shut at the time RJ wished to travel. I'm not aware of any obligation to buy a ticket in advance of going to the station to start your journey.

 

[jopsuk]

Confusion did indeed reign- RJ had quoted from the wrong tab, and I'm made a leaping assumption that he'd attempted to buy a ticket just before the time he thought the ticket office closed.

The reality is much more sensible!

 

[34D]

The RMT are always going to be against using agency staff. Less full time staff = less membership fees for them.

I would tell you all about agency fees but its going too far off topic and I doubt you would understand because apparently enough TOCs do so I'll leave it at that. I cant be bothered to get into it with you.

According to https://www.gov.uk/agency-workers-your-rights/your-rights-as-a-temporary-agency-worker agency workers are entitled to equal pay and equal benefits (free travel perks, etc) after 12 weeks?

Is this not what happens on the ground? Surely the RMT et al need to have a recruitment drive amongst them?

 

[najaB]

According to https://www.gov.uk/agency-workers-your-rights/your-rights-as-a-temporary-agency-worker agency workers are entitled to equal pay and equal benefits (free travel perks, etc) after 12 weeks?

I can't speak for the rail industry, but I can tell you that in the communications sector it's not uncommon for agency workers to be put on 'pay between assignments' contracts. This means that they are not covered by the 12-week rule.

 

[SussexMan]

According to https://www.gov.uk/agency-workers-your-rights/your-rights-as-a-temporary-agency-worker agency workers are entitled to equal pay and equal benefits (free travel perks, etc) after 12 weeks?

Is this not what happens on the ground? Surely the RMT et al need to have a recruitment drive amongst them?

I think you will find there is a big difference between an employer using an agency to fill a position or using an agency worker, compared to an employer contracting out part of their operation.

So if a TOC has in-house cleaners but uses an agency to help recruit some or fill a short-term need then after 12 weeks they will have the same rights as the TOC's own employees. However, if the TOC contracts out its cleaning to an agency, then they will not be entitled to the same rights as the TOC's employees.

 

[34D]

I think you will find there is a big difference between an employer using an agency to fill a position or using an agency worker, compared to an employer contracting out part of their operation.

So if a TOC has in-house cleaners but uses an agency to help recruit some or fill a short-term need then after 12 weeks they will have the same rights as the TOC's own employees. However, if the TOC contracts out its cleaning to an agency, then they will not be entitled to the same rights as the TOC's employees.

But under TUPE those 'contracted out' staff get the same rights anyway.....

 

[SussexMan]

But under TUPE those 'contracted out' staff get the same rights anyway.....

Yes, the TUPE'd staff do but those pay and conditions will be different to the contracted company's std terms. Any agency staff would be entitled to the contracted company's std terms, not the protected terms of the TUPE'd staff.

e.g. TOC pays £8.00 to cleaners. They contract out the cleaning to "SuperFast Cleaning Company". 25 staff move over to Superfast on protected TUPE conditions. However, Superfast's policy is to employ cleaners on NMW. If they use an agency (not sub-contractor) to recruit staff then after 12 weeks those agency workers need to be given the same conditions as Superfast's std conditions (not the same conditions as the protected TUPE'd staff).

 

[najaB]

But under TUPE those 'contracted out' staff get the same rights anyway.....

I assure you this is not always the case, from personal experience. As SussexMan points out, the protections under TUPE only apply to people who were employees at the time of the transfer. At one point we had 10 people in my team and three different sets of T&C's due to multiple transfers. This meant that even though we were doing the same job, there was about £10K per annum difference in pay.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But under TUPE those 'contracted out' staff get the same rights anyway.....

Bear in mind that TUPE really only protects your basic employment terms (e.g. pay, holiday entitlement, working hourse). Things such as pensions are specifically excluded from TUPE. I believe that additional perks such as free travel or season ticket loans are too, but I'm not certain on that.

TUPE only protects employees at the time of transfer. That's why some TOCs have huge discrepancies in pay and conditions, Northern pay more to their "east side" staff AFAIK.

 

[Deerfold]

I believe that additional perks such as free travel or season ticket loans are too, but I'm not certain on that.

I think that depends on whether they're contractual or not. I've had a certain amount of free travel and an interest-free season ticket loan for 13 years - but it's made quite clear that they can in theory be withdrawn at any time (though there would be some commotion if they were and a lot of added paperwork in claiming back costs on business-related travel).

There are also ways of changing terms and conditions. We had a standardisation process a few years ago trying to come up with 1 set or terms and conditions - I signed up straight away as they were better than what I was on. For some people (mostly with long terms of service) the new terms had fewer leave days so some did not sign up for it. However annual pay rises after that were only awarded to those on the new terms (and were cummulative but not backdated) if anyone had left a gap before signing up) so over time most people transferred, retired or left.