Penalty Fare attempt at Norwich

[RJ]

I made a journey from Ely to Norwich recently. The ticket office at Ely was supposed to be open until 1am but when I got there, there was a notice on the window to say it had closed several hours early and would reopen late the following morning. I intended to buy a Priv Anytime Return from Ely to Norwich and had a RTV to cover the cost. The conductor on the train to Norwich wasn't doing tickets, else I would have obtained one on the way.

So I arrived at Norwich, went to the gateline assistant, said I had come from Ely and simply asked if I could buy a ticket. I explained the ticket office was shut and that I wasn't able to make use of the Ticket Vending Machine (TVM). The gateline assistant asked if I was aware that Ely was a Penalty Fare station. I said yes, so he said that as I didn't have a ticket, he would have me issued with a Penalty Fare.

I decided not to bother arguing with this individual and just said "fine." I find that these situations tend fizzle out by themselves when I don't do or say anything. He radioed somebody to ask if there were any guards on the station who could issue a Penalty Fare. I presume the response was negative, as he said "it's your lucky day" and opened the barrier for me. At no point in the conversation did he suggest I buy a ticket from the ticket office there.

He had decided I was trying to evade paying the fare from the outset. I showed him my Priv and said that I wasn't able to buy a Priv ticket from the machine anyway. He said that that didn't matter, then fondly recalled a story of a FCC member of staff travelling up from London without paying and being taken away by revenue staff. Quite what that had to do with the situation, I couldn't quite fathom. I went straight to the ticket office and bought the ticket I would have gotten from Ely. I'm sure ATOC have issued and reissued briefs telling staff to use common sense and allow Priv holders to buy a ticket where there was no opportunity to obtain one previously. Too many revenue staff out there with the inability to judge each situation on its own merits - this one clearly had trust issues, to the point where no effort was made to investigate my claims about Ely ticket office or the conductor on the train.

The problems I had at the other end of the line four years ago was what caused me to start reading up about the ticketing system in the first place - apparently to the chagrin of many retail/revenue staff, front line and senior since. It's a pity that in all that time, there hasn't been any improvement in the way this line's revenue staff handle matters like this. It makes me wonder how many other people they Penalty Fare when they had no facility to buy a ticket beforehand.

Finally, I'm pleased to report that I didn't give this a second thought for the remainder of the evening and as ever, Norwich was a jokes night out!

The following day, I travelled back through Liverpool Street. I went through the gateline on the Underground concourse and was immediately stopped by a plain clothed ticket inspector - the Oyster Card I was using flagged up as requiring an accompanying photocard. I was quite surprised, because I've never actually had a ticket check on the Underground in all my years. I showed her the photocard and joked that I thought such inspectors were a myth because I'd never seen one before. I'm glad that this is done, because staff and Freedom pass abuse is a problem.

The day after, I travelled on EMT out of St Pancras, I had my ticket checked by my favourite RPI - the one who spent 45 minutes trying to UFN me on one day, then chased me down the platform and physically apprehended him the next time he spotted me. I saw him coming, smiled and said "Good morning sir, how are you today?" I barely got a grunt in response - but I didn't have any issues with the ticket I was using

 

[Llanigraham]

I made a journey from Ely to Norwich recently. The ticket office was supposed to be open but when I got there, there was a notice on the window to say it had closed several hours early and would reopen late the following morning. I intended to buy a Priv Anytime Return from Ely to Norwich and had a RTV to cover the cost. The conductor on the train to Norwich wasn't doing tickets, else I would have obtained one on the way.

So I arrived at Norwich, went to the gateline assistant, said I had come from Ely and simply asked if I could buy a ticket. I explained the ticket office was shut and that I wasn't able to make use of the Ticket Vending Machine (TVM). The gateline assistant asked if I was aware that Ely was a Penalty Fare station. I said yes, so he said that as I didn't have a ticket, he would have me issued with a Penalty Fare.

I decided not to bother arguing with this individual and just said "fine." I find that these situations tend fizzle out by themselves when I don't do or say anything. He radioed somebody to ask if there were any guards on the station who could issue a Penalty Fare. I presume the response was negative, as he said "it's your lucky day" and opened the barrier for me. At no point in the conversation did he suggest I buy a ticket from the ticket office there.

He had decided I was trying to evade paying the fare from the outset. I showed him my Priv and said that I wasn't able to buy a Priv ticket from the machine anyway. He said that that didn't matter, then fondly recalled a story of a FCC member of staff travelling up from London without paying and being taken away by revenue staff. Quite what that had to do with the situation, I couldn't quite fathom. I went straight to the ticket office and bought the ticket I would have gotten from Ely.

The problems I had at the other end of the line four years ago was what caused me to start reading up about the ticketing system in the first place - apparently to the chagrin of many retail/revenue staff, front line and senior since. It's a pity that in all that time, there hasn't been any improvement in the way this line's revenue staff handle matters like this.

Sorry but how do you know that? Did he tell you that was what he had decided or are you making an assumption of the situation?

 

[BestWestern]

From the description of the incident it's difficult to reach any other conclusion, isn't it?! The passenger gave a clear explanation, the gateline attendant appears to have immediately disregarded it and made attempts to issue a penalty fare, before reciting an irrelevant tale of what was presumably deemed a similar situation involving a previous fare evader.

Sounds like chip was firmly on shouler for whatever reason.

 

[RJ]

Sorry but how do you know that? Did he tell you that was what he had decided or are you making an assumption of the situation?

He said that because I had no ticket and had travelled from a Penalty Fare station, he would be calling for someone to PF me. This was after I explained everything, which included the reasons why there were insufficient facilities for me to obtain a ticket - and making no attempt to verify my explanation. This is not the way a member of staff behaves if they're being neutral towards someone.

Him saying that it was my lucky day because there was no revenue around was actually quite offensive, as was going on about some fare evader in the past - especially since I asked him if I could buy a ticket before anything else.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Incredible how some (minority of) staff treat other Railway staff like this, must say I've never had that myself, most are very welcoming to other Railway staff which is good to see as they might get the favour returned one day!

 

[sarahj]

Wished I'd been on duty in Norwich land that night. 'Oh you want a priv, no problem sir, here you go, have a nice day'.

When people show me a priv, wish I could share my responce on an open forum.

But as the person on the barrier showed, 'there is always one'.

 

[RJ]

I've dismissed this one as an isolated instance where the member of staff allowed his keenness to cloud his better judgement. I don't often come across GA revenue staff very often but when I have, it's unfortunate that it had to be a negative experience considering I was travelling legitimately each time. The only other time I recall was when I sat in FC on a Stansted Express service at Liverpool Street - I was approached as soon as I sat down and asked for a ticket, this was before the train left. No smile, no please or anything. I was less than impressed by this, ticket inspectors are generally quite respectful with their initial approach.

The irony is that if you show a Priv and ask to be let through without paying, you're less likely to have problems than if you ask to buy a ticket then show your Priv - or hold an unusual but valid Priv ticket for the journey. I have never done the former as I like to do things by the book - but doing so seems increase the likelihood of getting grief!

 

[Clip]

So I arrived at Norwich, went to the gateline assistant, said I had come from Ely and simply asked if I could buy a ticket. I explained the ticket office was shut and that I wasn't able to make use of the Ticket Vending Machine (TVM). The gateline assistant asked if I was aware that Ely was a Penalty Fare station. I said yes, so he said that as I didn't have a ticket, he would have me issued with a Penalty Fare.

I decided not to bother arguing with this individual and just said "fine." I find that these situations tend fizzle out by themselves when I don't do or say anything. He radioed somebody to ask if there were any guards on the station who could issue a Penalty Fare. I presume the response was negative, as he said "it's your lucky day" and opened the barrier for me. At no point in the conversation did he suggest I buy a ticket from the ticket office there.

He had decided I was trying to evade paying the fare from the outset. I showed him my Priv and said that I wasn't able to buy a Priv ticket from the machine anyway. He said that that didn't matter, then fondly recalled a story of a FCC member of staff travelling up from London without paying and being taken away by revenue staff. Quite what that had to do with the situation, I couldn't quite fathom. I went straight to the ticket office and bought the ticket I would have gotten from Ely. I'm sure ATOC have issued and reissued briefs telling staff to use common sense and allow Priv holders to buy a ticket where there was no opportunity to obtain one previously. Too many revenue staff out there with the inability to judge each situation on its own merits - this one clearly had trust issues, to the point where no effort was made to investigate my claims about Ely ticket office or the conductor on the train.

This is the problem with some gateline staff who seem to think they know all about the intricacies of ticketing and what is or isnt allowed. Ive got a few who no matter how many times they get told still seem to think they know it all and still cause no end of rows at some gatelines. Just email GA and let them know about it and hopefully someone will get there and tell him to wind his neck in.

The following day, I travelled back through Liverpool Street. I went through the gateline on the Underground concourse and was immediately stopped by a plain clothed ticket inspector - the Oyster Card I was using flagged up as requiring an accompanying photocard. I was quite surprised, because I've never actually had a ticket check on the Underground in all my years. I showed her the photocard and joked that I thought such inspectors were a myth because I'd never seen one before. I'm glad that this is done, because staff and Freedom pass abuse is a problem.

They're a rare breed but you will encounter them more often should you use Stockwell station from my experience. What kind of gets my goat is on the DLR - I have no problem with the ticket checks but I know it comes up on their machine as staff pass butvery rarley do the PSAs or TSO's actually ask to look at your photocard, I tell me lass that if they are not going to do it properly then why bother at all?

 

[yorkie]

It's a false economy but the Train Companies seem to think they can employ (or, in some cases, get a third party to employ) any random person with barely any training and then expect them to be able to interpret complex rules regarding ticketing.

It often results in one of the extremes; either allowing any old ticket through, or dis-allowing valid tickets. :roll:

 

[Haywain]

He had decided I was trying to evade paying the fare from the outset. I showed him my Priv and said that I wasn't able to buy a Priv ticket from the machine anyway. He said that that didn't matter, then fondly recalled a story of a FCC member of staff travelling up from London without paying and being taken away by revenue staff. Quite what that had to do with the situation, I couldn't quite fathom. I went straight to the ticket office and bought the ticket I would have gotten from Ely. I'm sure ATOC have issued and reissued briefs telling staff to use common sense and allow Priv holders to buy a ticket where there was no opportunity to obtain one previously. Too many revenue staff out there with the inability to judge each situation on its own merits - this one clearly had trust issues, to the point where no effort was made to investigate my claims about Ely ticket office or the conductor on the train.

An alternative interpretation is that as you did not have a valid ticket he concluded that you may be liable to a penalty fare and felt it appropriate to call for a suitably qualified person to deal with and decide on the matter. If he decided that you were evading the fare a penalty fare would not have been appropriate anyway.

 

[Clip]

An alternative interpretation is that as you did not have a valid ticket he concluded that you may be liable to a penalty fare and felt it appropriate to call for a suitably qualified person to deal with and decide on the matter. If he decided that you were evading the fare a penalty fare would not have been appropriate anyway.

But follow on from the red bit you highlighted and you can see that when even shown the PRIV it still didnt matter to the assistant which more than means he had already made up his mind.

He had in fact decided that he was evading the fare by trying to call someone over to PF him, he probably didnt understand about prosecutions anyway.

 

[Tibbs]

An alternative interpretation is that as you did not have a valid ticket he concluded that you may be liable to a penalty fare and felt it appropriate to call for a suitably qualified person to deal with and decide on the matter. If he decided that you were evading the fare a penalty fare would not have been appropriate anyway.

Based on the account he didn't do that. He called on a more senior person to generate the penalty fare he'd decided on, not to aid the investigation. The other person may have done the right thing, but we don't know that for sure.

Of course we only one side of the incident, but based on verified incidents in the past RJ is a pretty compelling witness.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I've dismissed this one as an isolated instance where the member of staff allowed his keenness to cloud his better judgement. I don't often come across GA revenue staff very often but when I have, it's unfortunate that it had to be a negative experience

I'm not convinced it's an isolated incident. I've heard incidents of Northern staff, legitimately travelling on a Northern staff pass, having issues with barrier staff on the Greater Anglia network.

It comes down to training and knowledge in most cases. TOCs keep this to a bare minimum for cost reasons and, as Yorkie says, it's a bit of a false economy.

 

[Clip]

It comes down to training and knowledge in most cases. TOCs keep this to a bare minimum for cost reasons and, as Yorkie says, it's a bit of a false economy.

Simply not true.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Clip, you might be right. The G4S contracted staff at Northern have an impeccable knowledge of the intricacies of ticketing regulations and the routeing guide.

Oh, wait a second...

 

[bb21]

But your assertion was that they do it solely for cost reasons. Can you prove it?

 

[Clip]

Clip, you might be right. The G4S contracted staff at Northern have an impeccable knowledge of the intricacies of ticketing regulations and the routeing guide.

Oh, wait a second...

So thats nothing to do with costs across all TOCs is it?

What is the issue is getting staff together for training because if we took them all off at once there would be no ****er at the station. So we try and do it in very small groups which takes time and actually costs more money in the long run. But as I said previously in this thread and countless others - it is also down to the idividual to retain that knowledge and use it correctly, which unfortunatly a lot of them dont which leads to the situation RJ found himself in.

What would you like us to do - sack them?

 

[Tibbs]

But your assertion was that they do it solely for cost reasons. Can you prove it?

You've chosen the wrong null (or default) hypothesis. The onus is on you to prove that they not doing it because of cost.

The sole reason for a private company to exist is to generate profit for its shareholders. Therefore, there are only 2 reasons for someone to be employed by a company - to generate profit or to control cost. All their decisions must be made according to that end goal.

A ticket examiner is there to generate revenue for the organisation, but you then have to examine why the organisation goes to an outside agency.

Looking at the evidence on this board, a house employed ticket examiner is better trained and more knowledgable about ticketing matters and should therefore generate more revenue than the agency employee. (Your thoughts?). So it stands, by default that the agency person is there because it's cheaper to employ them. The poorer performance is offset by the cheaper wage.

 

[RJ]

Training and the necessary appraisal at some TOCs does appear to be a two bit operation. This by no means extends to every TOC.

One TOC I worked for, I went to a dedicated ticket training school for four weeks and had to pass a 5 hour exam with a minimum of 85% before going into service. Thereafter followed three weeks of being mentored by an existing member of staff.

Where I am now, I was put on a gateline assistant course - I had two days of product knowledge training, followed by three "weeks" of being shadowed in the ticket office. I gather the GAs went on to do ticket gate, Avantix Mobile and other revenue training

What I'd like to see is an emphasis on really empowering retail and revenue staff with the knowledge and skills they need to take the most appropriate course of action, which requires a few things;

- Product and procedure knowledge

- Recognition of exactly when they should realise that there is an element of uncertainty and as such;

- Knowing exactly where to look to find out anything not known

- Having a designated ticketing expert post who can provide support and guidance to staff on the front line by telephone.

There is certainly a psychological element to the job which is something I've seen missed time and time again - training staff up on being confident enough to look things up is just as important as the product knowledge itself.

From my own experience, many staff want to be seen to be knowledgeable about tickets - which is great, but this natural yearn is failed by poor training practices - too many staff see it as an indignity to admit to a passenger that they need to look something up - this is something training should encourage staff to do, turning it into a positive thing.

I'd even give up my time to work on this vocationally if I thought that anyone was interested.

 

[bb21]

You've chosen the wrong null (or default) hypothesis. The onus is on you to prove that they not doing it because of cost.

I don't have to prove anything because I am not the one making the claim, neither is Clip, or did I miss something?

My personal opinion on what the exact reason is is irrelevant. That is not the issue we are talking about.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But your assertion was that they do it solely for cost reasons. Can you prove it?

What would you like us to do - sack them?

Given that G4S, Trainpeople and other agency staff are paid less and have fewer employment rights and perks than their equivalent TOC staff, I can only imagine that TOCs choose agency staff for cost reasons- they're cheaper to employ and cheaper to get rid of. The RMT and other trade unions certainly seem to think so.

My views are the same as those of the RMT: sack the agencies not the workers.

As the RMT say, "They only have one motive, to make a profit, and the only way that can happen is at the expense of jobs, security and decent pay and conditions."

 

[bb21]

They may be cheaper. They may not, after adding agencies' fees and other associated costs. I don't think the RMT are that trustworthy given that they have vested interests in this issue. But I don't know the answer.

My point is that you need to be careful what you claim, because if you don't have the facts to hand to back up your claims, it could appear as nothing more than a cheap swipe at the train companies.

 

[jon0844]

Agency staff are usually the same price or more in my experience of using them when I worked at a local authority. What they offered was flexibility, although you'd think for a role like gateline assistant or revenue protection officer, you'd know how many you needed.

 

[Clip]

Given that G4S, Trainpeople and other agency staff are paid less and have fewer employment rights and perks than their equivalent TOC staff, I can only imagine that TOCs choose agency staff for cost reasons- they're cheaper to employ and cheaper to get rid of. The RMT and other trade unions certainly seem to think so.

My views are the same as those of the RMT: sack the agencies not the workers.

As the RMT say, "They only have one motive, to make a profit, and the only way that can happen is at the expense of jobs, security and decent pay and conditions."

They may or may not be paid less after agency fees - I should know employing booking office staff and the like, but apparently you know more than me so I shall bow to your infinite wisdom on that one.

And also once again you claim this is for all TOCs yet you only point to G4S and Northern on their revenue duties. And once again I shall point out that not all TOCs do so but again I'll bow to your obviously far superior knowledge on the subject given that you dont even work in the industry.

 

[Tetchytyke]

They may or may not be paid less after agency fee's

I'm not sure what agency fees have to do with the price of fish? The employee doesn't receive them.

Are agency fees more or less than the on-costs (e.g. employer NICs) and end-of-employment costs associated with direct employment?

The RMT are clear in their opinion that agency staff are paid less and treated more poorly than directly employed staff, and that the only reason for using agency staff is that they're cheaper to hire and cheaper to fire. The RMT are biased, of course they are, but there must be some benefit to a TOC in using agency staff.

Maybe an agency contract is cost-neutral to the TOC, but it'd be the first one in history that is.

And also once again you claim this is for all TOCs yet you only point to G4S and Northern on their revenue duties. And once again I shall point out that not all TOCs do so but again Ill bow to your obviously far superior knowledge on the subject given that you dont even work in the industry.

I used G4S on revenue duties as an example, but I could equally have chosen the abysmal RailGourmet on catering duties. Or I could have chosen the delightful way One (as was) attempted to claim that their Stansted Express catering staff were "self employed".

Not all TOCs behave in this manner, of course not, but enough do.

As for "not working in the industry", you mentioned it twice I'm not sure what relevance that has to the discussion? I've worked in social welfare law long enough to know that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably a duck.

I also think we've gone way off topic from what was a passing comment on my behalf.

 

[Clip]

The RMT are always going to be against using agency staff. Less full time staff = less membership fees for them.

I would tell you all about agency fees but its going too far off topic and I doubt you would understand because apparently enough TOCs do so I'll leave it at that. I cant be bothered to get into it with you.

 

[LowLevel]

Yeah, it's great how I can see, on the same train in cases, 'contractor' staff pushing trolleys for minimum wage with no real pension to speak of and whatever else with 12 hour or longer shifts and short turnarounds and no real break, and in house staff, on much better wages, with good pensions, travel rights, protection in terms of their working hours etc.

It's one of the quietest crimes on the rail network that it's allowed to happen.

It's also off topic but as a guard who has to work with these poor people it really upsets me.

 

[38Cto15E]

The gateline assistant was probably having a bad day, especially if he was a supporter of the local football team.
RJ, good to see you posting again I really enjoy reading your tales, is the Blog up and running yet?

 

[Clip]

Yeah, it's great how I can see, on the same train in cases, 'contractor' staff pushing trolleys for minimum wage with no real pension to speak of and whatever else with 12 hour or longer shifts and short turnarounds and no real break, and in house staff, on much better wages, with good pensions, travel rights, protection in terms of their working hours etc.

It's one of the quietest crimes on the rail network that it's allowed to happen.

It's also off topic but as a guard who has to work with these poor people it really upsets me.

Oh man up,man. There's probably every chance that if they didn't contract out the trolley services on some tocs then you wouldn't have one at all.

 

[RJ]

I used G4S on revenue duties as an example, but I could equally have chosen the abysmal RailGourmet on catering duties. Or I could have chosen the delightful way One (as was) attempted to claim that their Stansted Express catering staff were "self employed".

I drive for a bus operator but am considered as "self employed." It's fine for me - I'm casual and fit it around other commitments. One benefit is the way I pay tax - I pay HMRC directly, so I get to rack up reward points on the credit card.

Less than ideal if it's your primary source of income however.

The gateline assistant was probably having a bad day, especially if he was a supporter of the local football team.
RJ, good to see you posting again I really enjoy reading your tales, is the Blog up and running yet?

Thanks, I've been quite busy recently dealing with another matter involving another Train Operating Company - they had me reported for fare evasion for using a permitted route on a valid ticket that was cheaper than their point to point fare for the journey I was making. The gateline assistant that had me reported was another one who was devoid of the knowledge and humility required to make an appropriate decision - even when presented with relevant printouts from the NRE journey planner, the Routeing Guide and her employer's own journey planner. Still ongoing and proving to be expensive and time consuming to deal with.

As for Norwich City, I expect he should probably be used to disappointment by now - they're going to need a serious run of luck to escape relegation. Not that I take an interest in football, but I had quite an animated conversation with the cab driver about it - he was a Sunderland fan.