Settle-Carlisle line & low traffic levels

[Tomnick]

The signalled turnback move is indeed at Blea Moor (but on the Down Main rather than in the loop), and has even been to passenger standards with a main arm for quite a while now (I seem to remember that it was upgraded to allow the last passenger to turn back without detraining when running as a music train).

 

[leedslad82]

Why would through passengers opt for a much longer journey via Settle?
It is never going to compete with the upgraded ECML/WCML, even at 75mph and with through trains.

I did this a few weeks ago. It was nearly £100 cheaper to go from Leeds to Glasgow via the S & C and even with a twenty min connection at carlise was still 12 mins quicker

 

[ainsworth74]

Check that the Class 185s would be permitted on the S&C. The 185s are not permitted to do Sprinter speeds unlike 158s. Even 170s may not be permitted to use them even though they exploit them in other routes.

Whilst 185s are certainly heavy if the S&C can take fully loaded coal trains then surely to goodness it could cope with 185s!?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I did this a few weeks ago. It was nearly £100 cheaper to go from Leeds to Glasgow via the S & C and even with a twenty min connection at carlise was still 12 mins quicker

But you are up against a 2-hourly through XC service via Newcastle (hourly by changing at Edinburgh), and hourly 1-change services via Manchester or Preston, in similar times.
Anybody further afield than Leeds has an even greater disadvantage.
I love travelling on the S&C as much as anybody, but I do recognise its disadvantages when all the investment and frequency improvement has gone into the WCML/ECML/TP routes.
Extending S&C trains to Glasgow might seem attractive, but the G&SW is very slow and there are already 2tph on the Caledonian route with plenty of capacity.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm planning on meeting up with a family member in Glasgow later in the year, and I will be travelling by the S&C primarily because of the reasonable price (without needing to plan months in advance), so it's not all about speed. Of course, the excellent scenery is a bonus!

 

[Carlisle]

I think he means if it were to continue to Glasgow it'd need to be able to hit around three figures whilst on the WCML north of Carlisle

Maybe one day such a service could use 3 or 4 car class 221s if Xc or Virgin ever release some due to eventual expanding electrification

 

[Condor7]

But you are up against a 2-hourly through XC service via Newcastle (hourly by changing at Edinburgh), and hourly 1-change services via Manchester or Preston, in similar times.
Anybody further afield than Leeds has an even greater disadvantage.
I love travelling on the S&C as much as anybody, but I do recognise its disadvantages when all the investment and frequency improvement has gone into the WCML/ECML/TP routes.
Extending S&C trains to Glasgow might seem attractive, but the G&SW is very slow and there are already 2tph on the Caledonian route with plenty of capacity.

The point I was making was regarding the comment that always seems to come up about the low population between Settle and Carlisle. My point being that there are lots of stretches of track of 70 miles or so in the UK with low population but still have long distance passenger trains.

If we started to refer to it as the Midland Main Line (for instance) it takes in the much greater distance of Glasgow to West and South Yorkshire, and Nottinghamshire.

If more had been invested in the Settle and Carlisle section then journey times would be quicker from these areas to Western Scotland at least.

 

[infobleep]

The point I was making was regarding the comment that always seems to come up about the low population between Settle and Carlisle. My point being that there are lots of stretches of track of 70 miles or so in the UK with low population but still have long distance passenger trains.

If we started to refer to it as the Midland Main Line (for instance) it takes in the much greater distance of Glasgow to West and South Yorkshire, and Nottinghamshire.

If more had been invested in the Settle and Carlisle section then journey times would be quicker from these areas to Western Scotland at least.

I understand that. The question I was wondering was are there less stations on the L&C stretch and if so why? Given they are similar population perhaps they do have an equal number of stations. I don't actually know.

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[Class 170101]

Whilst 185s are certainly heavy if the S&C can take fully loaded coal trains then surely to goodness it could cope with 185s!?

Maybe but not using Sprinter differentials - therefore impacting on journey times. This should be checked before anyone suggests the 185s should run on the S&C.

As far as timetable improvements go I would suggest that the 19:19 from Leeds should run through to Carlisle, with the 21:00 ex Ribblehead starting in Carlisle.

I understand from Twitter the Friends of the Settle and Carlisle Line have also just submitted proposals to the DfT for extra service(s) on their line.

 

[The Planner]

Maybe but not using Sprinter differentials - therefore impacting on journey times. This should be checked before anyone suggests the 185s should run on the S&C.

Any speed improvements above the current 60 will more than likely be sprinter differentials, though it possibly could be DMU to capture Voyagers for the rare Virgin diversions.

 

[Tomnick]

I understand that. The question I was wondering was are there less stations on the L&C stretch and if so why? Given they are similar population perhaps they do have an equal number of stations. I don't actually know.

There are far fewer stations between Lancaster and Carlisle (only Oxenholme and Penrith) than there are between Settle and Carlisle - no doubt because of its importance as a main line. Would there be sufficient through traffic to justify faster trains on the S&C, though - and would the remaining local traffic continue to justify the current provision of stopping trains? I suspect not, given the relatively easy alternatives via either the ECML or the WCML.

 

[ainsworth74]

Maybe but not using Sprinter differentials - therefore impacting on journey times. This should be checked before anyone suggests the 185s should run on the S&C.

This is true but worth remembering that between Leeds and Hull similar restrictions apply but 185s can easily keep to 170/158 timings thanks to their far superior acceleration. I wonder if something similar might not apply here especially with some of the gradients on the line (after all 185s are supposed to be good at climbing hills ).

 

[Carlisle]

There are far fewer stations between Lancaster and Carlisle (only Oxenholme and Penrith) than there are between Settle and Carlisle - no doubt because of its importance as a main line. Would there be sufficient through traffic to justify faster trains on the S&C, though - and would the remaining local traffic continue to justify the current provision of stopping trains? I suspect not, given the relatively easy alternatives via either the ECML or the WCML.

There used to be many stations between the cities you mentioned on the west coast mainline only difference being most of the small stations on the S&C were re opened around 1986 whereas none have been reopened on the west coast route

 

[Tomnick]

I doubt the local demand from the former WCML intermediate stations would justify a dedicated stopping service though, whereas the more relaxed nature of the through trains on the Midland means that they can more readily serve the local demand as well as the relatively small number of through passengers. Take those through passengers away onto faster trains, and would the stopping trains then become uneconomic to run?

 

[Carlisle]

I have heard talk over the years of extending the SPT electrics south to Lockerbie serving some re opened stations and occasional talk of re opening stations like Shap but mainly for the reasons you give, I doubt any of this will happen

 

[RichmondCommu]

I doubt the local demand from the former WCML intermediate stations would justify a dedicated stopping service though, whereas the more relaxed nature of the through trains on the Midland means that they can more readily serve the local demand as well as the relatively small number of through passengers. Take those through passengers away onto faster trains, and would the stopping trains then become uneconomic to run?

I would argue not as travelling from the Northern Dales to Skipton by road is lengthy and tedious. There are many people who live in the Dales and who work in Leeds and rail travel is their best bet. And if we were to improve the stopping service their numbers would increase. Not only that but if we are to try and encourage young people to stay in the Dales we need to improve the service to Leeds.

 

[infobleep]

There are far fewer stations between Lancaster and Carlisle (only Oxenholme and Penrith) than there are between Settle and Carlisle - no doubt because of its importance as a main line. Would there be sufficient through traffic to justify faster trains on the S&C, though - and would the remaining local traffic continue to justify the current provision of stopping trains? I suspect not, given the relatively easy alternatives via either the ECML or the WCML.

It's a shame they can't find a way of providing additional stations on routes like the L&C. I often feel villages and towns miss out just because they happened to be located on a fast line. Where as similar sized places not located on fast lines are allowed to remain open to serve the local community.

I guess buses run for those places on the fast lines but it's not the same. There again I prefer train travel so I'm biased.

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[infobleep]

I have heard talk over the years of extending the SPT electrics south to Lockerbie serving some re opened stations and occasional talk of re opening stations like Shap but mainly for the reasons you give, I doubt any of this will happen

I wondered before whether Snap would server walkers, like some of the other stations in the country that are only there for walkers. Of course it's not in the heart of the lake district, which would count against it.

I don't know how big the other places are but I always think of Tebay, which use to be a Junction station but is no more. Doesn't mean there's a big population there of course.

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[Buttsy]

Looking at the size of the places on the WCML, Shap & Tebay are about the size of Langwathby, so you wouldn't necessarily suggest new stations be opened at those places. Hest Bank, Bolton-le-Sands and Carnforth are the only places with bigger populations, which would be better served by local services on the Barrow/Leeds lines (which Carnforth is).

Crosby Garrett on the S&C didn't re-open which is probably similar size to Armathwaite. The reason why the stations opened on the S&C was that platforms were still extant in BR days (they probably don't meet modern requirements now). The only reason Ribblehead got a down platform was that the Friends (or similar association) put a fair wedge towards it. None of these stations would have re-opened had the platforms been demolished.

Shap is on the Coast to Coast walking route, but an extra day's walk from there gets you into Kirby Stephen and so most walking the route in 2 goes finish one leg there as it's about 5/6 days in.

 

[infobleep]

Looking at the size of the places on the WCML, Shap & Tebay are about the size of Langwathby, so you wouldn't necessarily suggest new stations be opened at those places. Hest Bank, Bolton-le-Sands and Carnforth are the only places with bigger populations, which would be better served by local services on the Barrow/Leeds lines (which Carnforth is).

Crosby Garrett on the S&C didn't re-open which is probably similar size to Armathwaite. The reason why the stations opened on the S&C was that platforms were still extant in BR days (they probably don't meet modern requirements now). The only reason Ribblehead got a down platform was that the Friends (or similar association) put a fair wedge towards it. None of these stations would have re-opened had the platforms been demolished.

Shap is on the Coast to Coast walking route, but an extra day's walk from there gets you into Kirby Stephen and so most walking the route in 2 goes finish one leg there as it's about 5/6 days in.

That's interesting. I wouldn't have thought a stations survival hinged on whether they were bothered to demolish the platforms in the past.

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[Buttsy]

That's interesting. I wouldn't have thought a stations survival hinged on whether they were bothered to demolish the platforms in the past.

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Noramlly it wouldn't but in the case of the S&C it did. There was assistance from the Friends and the DalesRail service to keep them in reasonable order between 1974 and 1985.

There were a few others during the BR sectorisation era, such as Bicester Town, Moss Side, some of the Chase Line stations, Lichfield TV High Level, as new services were tried initially where the train could run into extant platforms so little work was needed in rebuilding the station. Basically, re-openings were done on the cheap. None of the 80s era re-openings has closed I believe.

 

[Hebden Bridger]

That's interesting. I wouldn't have thought a stations survival hinged on whether they were bothered to demolish the platforms in the past.

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Well yes, when the S&C was under threat of closure in the 1980s, its survival was down partly to the entrepreneurial nature of the the young line manager (whose name I forget) who challenged British Rails' then closure culture. One of his actions was to arrange for the reopening of every station possible on the line at approximately zero cost (only Kirby Stephen and Appleby were then open), with the Friends of the S&C and local volunteers clearing up existing platforms. Another I remember was introducing extremely cheap tickets to London from the Dales.

Of course the other main reason was the campaigning of the Friends and local councils which ensured the line remained front page news for the 5 years it was under threat. Even Thatcher didn't dare close the line in the end.

Passenger numbers are now 1.2m a year, compared to 90,000 a year in the early 80s. I really don't think there is much wrong with the current service. It serves the local community, is popular with tourists and is still a viable alternative for Yorkshire to Scotland travel. Yes there are a few large villages which would in an ideal world have stations, but people in the Dales are used to driving and a short car journey to a station isn't a major deterrent.

 

[YorkshireBear]

With the loss of many dales bus services, particularly to Settle, the rail line is likely to become more important for local links to Skipton and Leeds. I do not think it is beyond all reason that a more regular service to Settle may be introduced at some point stopping at all stations.

 

[Carlisle]

Interesting stuff on the settle line here, also if I remember correctly when I last used the nearby re instated Clitheroe train service it appeared some stations on that line needed major rebuilding to open again and don't serve communities that much larger than many settle line stations but have a much more regular service .hourly I think,same goes for stations like Islip on the Bicester line

 

[Bob Ames]

Meanwhile, in a field near the S&C:

 

[Mark62]

Maybe if Northern ran a few more trains that are more comfortable. Its a beautiful line that can be barely seen from the window of an 156 or 158. These units are also extremely noisy as the struggle on the route and the vibration is most disconcerting. Given northerns track record, they basically don't give a toss about any of these thing because they get paid whatever stock they run or how low traffic numbers are. They would run pacers on the route if they could. Under the current system thanks to the Tories lovely privatisation of the rails, there isn't any reason whatsover for TOCs like northern to have any considerations for passenger comfort etc. They really don't care how many passengers marginal routes like the S+C. And why would they?They are they to make as much money as possible. They can easily lease rolling stock in order to make the route more attractive, but why would they even bother to think about it. That costs money and it also needs someone to do it who actually cares about more than profit. No Sir, what is happening is all down to the current way we fund our railways. This is why operators can get away with four coach trains running from Penzance to Dundee. This is why a return ticket for two people from Nottingham to Skegness before 9am Mon-fri costs £75! I really feel sorry for people here in the UK who have to rely on our railways. Not everyone can travel off peak! And a substantial number of people here in the UK simply can not afford to travel even if they wanted. The railways are publicly funded and yet the people who fund them, have no say on how they are run, and can't afford to use the trains that they already pay for. This is the reality of railways in the UK.

 

[alastair]

Maybe if Northern ran a few more trains that are more comfortable. Its a beautiful line that can be barely seen from the window of an 156 or 158. These units are also extremely noisy as the struggle on the route and the vibration is most disconcerting. Given northerns track record, they basically don't give a toss about any of these thing because they get paid whatever stock they run or how low traffic numbers are. They would run pacers on the route if they could. Under the current system thanks to the Tories lovely privatisation of the rails, there isn't any reason whatsover for TOCs like northern to have any considerations for passenger comfort etc. They really don't care how many passengers marginal routes like the S+C. And why would they?They are they to make as much money as possible. They can easily lease rolling stock in order to make the route more attractive, but why would they even bother to think about it. That costs money and it also needs someone to do it who actually cares about more than profit. No Sir, what is happening is all down to the current way we fund our railways. This is why operators can get away with four coach trains running from Penzance to Dundee. This is why a return ticket for two people from Nottingham to Skegness before 9am Mon-fri costs £75! I really feel sorry for people here in the UK who have to rely on our railways. Not everyone can travel off peak! And a substantial number of people here in the UK simply can not afford to travel even if they wanted. The railways are publicly funded and yet the people who fund them, have no say on how they are run, and can't afford to use the trains that they already pay for. This is the reality of railways in the UK.

You raise some interesting points,some of which I agree with,however was it not "lovely" old BR who reduced the service to 2 trains per day each way in the 1980's? And who neglected upkeep of the line because they were so sure they could get away with closing it by falsely claiming Ribblehead viaduct was falling down?

Also,where is the rolling stock that Northern could "easily" lease? Judging by the hoo-ha when it was announced TPE were sending some units to Chiltern recently,it would seem that DMU's are at a severe premium.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Maybe if Northern ran a few more trains that are more comfortable. Its a beautiful line that can be barely seen from the window of an 156 or 158. These units are also extremely noisy as the struggle on the route and the vibration is most disconcerting. Given northerns track record, they basically don't give a toss about any of these thing because they get paid whatever stock they run or how low traffic numbers are. They would run pacers on the route if they could. Under the current system thanks to the Tories lovely privatisation of the rails, there isn't any reason whatsover for TOCs like northern to have any considerations for passenger comfort etc. They really don't care how many passengers marginal routes like the S+C. And why would they?They are they to make as much money as possible. They can easily lease rolling stock in order to make the route more attractive, but why would they even bother to think about it. That costs money and it also needs someone to do it who actually cares about more than profit. No Sir, what is happening is all down to the current way we fund our railways. This is why operators can get away with four coach trains running from Penzance to Dundee. This is why a return ticket for two people from Nottingham to Skegness before 9am Mon-fri costs £75! I really feel sorry for people here in the UK who have to rely on our railways. Not everyone can travel off peak! And a substantial number of people here in the UK simply can not afford to travel even if they wanted. The railways are publicly funded and yet the people who fund them, have no say on how they are run, and can't afford to use the trains that they already pay for. This is the reality of railways in the UK.

Sounds like you didn't use the S&C during BR steam days. Service - haha ha.
Slow goods trains were what mattered rather than passengers.
Although it was oddthat there were two passenger trains from Blackburn to Hellifield within abouthalf an hour in the morning! About a dozen passengers between them.
Not the S&C but slow and infrequent passenger trains with dirty seats were the norm around Lancashire. Today's service is infinitely better. If youneed examples I am happy togive details

 

[BantamMenace]

If i were to be organising a bid for the next Northern franchise i'd be on the blower to the likes of West Coast Railways and getting a quote for how much it would cost them to run a weekend (and possibly summer) service say a 9:00am and a 11:30am steam hauled departure from Leeds and returning departing at 16:00 and 18:30 from Carlisle. This would allow DMUs to be used elsewhere and no doubt increase ridership hugely. I'd ask them to provide drivers, guards and all other staff associated with running a steam service other than a ticket seller/revenue support person which would solely sell tickets onboard.

This would increase ridership no end and if network rail had issues pathing the run arounds at Leeds i'd give KWVR a ring and see if they'd welcome it as a Keighley or Oxenhope to Carlisle service.

 

[tbtc]

One point that I think some people are missing is that the best thing about the S&C (the scenery, the hills, the twists through some of England’s finest countryside) is also the reason why it’s a relatively quiet route with relatively slow passenger services.

As regards the S&C traffic (passenger) , 140 years ago the Midland was forced into building it by getting Parliamentary rights - even then , loadings on the crack trains well into the 20thC were low ,if not poor. 40 per train on the crack Anglo-Scottish diners north of Leeds was not uncommon. Maybe it is after all , a regional and tourist line ....?

That seems like a fair description. Not that that's a bad thing. There seem to be enough people to keep the various single and double 15* units occupied on the route.

There’s nothing wrong with the S&C in its current form – a bi-hourly passenger service from Leeds to Carlisle (plus lots of slow freight). Not every line needs to be a main line/ through line/ have express services, not every line is on the way to somewhere else.

Enthusiasts seem to be very keen to complicate things with through services linking unrelated places – I think that the basic set up for the S&C is fine as it is – the stock seems suitable for the journey lengths (though presumably a 153/155 could cope fine with the timings, given the lack of fast running (?).

However there does seem to be a habit on such threads of people suggesting that the line in question needs a London service, needs an express service, needs something bigger and better.

The other extreme is those threads where people seem to enjoy being contrary and suggesting services that avoid the biggest market en-route (I often see suggestions of running Cardiff to Milford Haven avoiding Swansea via the District Line, the Dawlish thread had people suggest running Bristol/London – Okehampon - Plymouth to avoid Exeter, a current TPE thread has suggestions of running Manchester – Leeds services non-stop through Huddersfield station, any mention of the Highland Chieftain on this forum seems guaranteed to have someone wanting a train from Inverness to Birmingham/London whilst avoiding Edinburgh/Glasgow).

In my humble opinion, the S&C seems pretty fine as it is. If you want to throw extra stock at it then you could stick an extra 153 on the services for the busier summer trips, stick a 153 to shuttle from Settle etc to Skipton to provide the southern end with better connections to the frequent Airedale services, no radical surgery required though.

I'm afraid that your idea for a Skipton to Settle class 153 shuttle service is a non starter for two reasons. Firstly I'm not sure where we'd find a spare class 153. However more importantly there is no cross over at Settle and indeed there hasn't been one since the early 1980's

Okay, a 153 shuttling from Ribblehead to Skipton – a forty minute journey time, so one unit could easily provide a bi-hourly service slotting in between the bi-hourly 158s to Carlisle, giving Ribblehead/ Settle/ Hellifield an hourly service to Skipton...

...what I love about these threads is the way that people can suggest all sorts of “blue sky” improvements (taking just this thread as an example - finding sufficient 125mph stock to run bi-hourly London services via the single track/passing loops of the Penistone line, doubling the S&C frequency from Leeds to Carlisle, putting Voyagers/185s on the S&C, finding sufficient 125mph stock to run bi-hourly London services up the S&C, extending S&C services to Nottingham/ Doncaster/ Glasgow etc)...

...but when you suggest something rather modest like finding one spare 153 (a class which Northern operate, a class that already runs some S&C services when coupled to a 158) to fill some gaps on the busiest section of the route, you get told that there are no spare 153s.

Okay, at the moment there are no spare DMUs full stop (we’ll have to wait a couple of years for more electrification – I wasn’t planning on introducing any new service in the next week), but that kind of detail is never mentioned when people make outlandish suggestions.

Whenever we get a thread about the S&C this argument always comes up.
In actual fact the distance between Lancaster and Carlisle is about the same as the S&C and the population between them is also sparse, yet no one suggests that it is not worth running trains over that section of line.

there are lots of stretches of track of 70 miles or so in the UK with low population but still have long distance passenger trains

Distance is irrelevant. Those miles on the S&C with top speed of 60mph are going to take almost twice as long as a comparable distance on the WCML. As I said earlier in the thread, you could do Leeds – Carlisle via Manchester (approx 3h, inc time to change trains) almost as quickly as Leeds – Carlisle via Settle (approx 2h 45). With TPE electrification, and an increase in frequency via Huddersfield, this may become an even faster journey before long.

If you want to argue about Leeds – Manchester – Carlisle not being a sensible route then sitting on a Northern DMU via the Copy Pit line and changing at Preston can be faster than a direct service up the S&C, despite the longer distance.

From Sheffield/ East Midlands etc, there’s even less need to get to Carlisle/ Glasgow via Leeds and Settle (when you can change at Manchester for a faster journey).

The fact that one private company tried to squeeze a market up the middle of the country to compete with the London – Scotland trade on the WCML and ECML doesn’t mean that there’s any justification for pretending that the S&C is part of a “Midland Main Line” today. The modern railway has plenty of backwaters that used to be the main line to somewhere else, just like the main road from London to Carlisle used to be the A6 through Buxton. It may be more direct than the M6, but which way would 99% of people prefer to drive to Carlisle?

We never refer to that section as the Lancaster and Carlisle railway, because we see it as only a part of a much larger journey.

I sometime wonder if calling the S&C by that name is not it's undoing, as everyone seem to see it as just that

If we started to refer to it as the Midland Main Line (for instance) it takes in the much greater distance of Glasgow to West and South Yorkshire, and Nottinghamshire

Call it the pan-European-superlink if you want, it’ll still be a 60mph railway that serves few intermediate stations of any size.

Certainly for areas like Leicester, Nottingham, Sheffield, Wakefield, Leeds, Bradford, it is the most direct route to Scotland

For many of those places, it’s not the fastest route to Scotland. Normal passengers may worry about journey time or frequency, but they don’t generally fret about how many miles the train has travelled between origin station and destination. You’re looking for problems that don’t exist.

we need to be looking at the line as just a part of a much larger overall journey and invest further to bring that about

We need to spend lots of money to “solve” a problem that isn’t there?

I do think that the frequency on the S & C should be improved

In all fairness I think the suggestion of running shuttles north from Skipton is not sensible irrespective of what units were used

How are you going to run a more frequent service on the S&C if you don’t want to start with a simple shuttle from Skipton into the Dales? Good luck finding spare paths from Leeds to Shipley, for start.

I don't see any real issues with the current timetable I suspect it meets the majority of demand, as has been pointed out the population beyond Settle is sparse, yet both ends of the line have a morning commuter train, while there is a good spread of trains from Leeds in the morning to cater for Walkers and those that want to travel the line etc.

Agreed. Compared to other rural lines which don’t serve large intermediate populations, the S&C has a good service. For example, you can commute on the S&C at both ends of the route – you can’t commute so easily on the Heart Of Wales line, the Whitby line, the Kyle of Lochalsh line etc.

I was thinking about this the other day, is there a reason the Nottingham-Leeds couldn't join up with Leeds-Carlisle to operate a through Nottingham-Carlisle? This could also be extended to Glasgow as many people seem to want on this forum

If it’s not worth cross-contaminating disruptions by mixing the Northern EMUs from Doncaster to Leeds with the Northern DMUs from Leeds to Bradford (with all of the problems of getting across the Leeds “throat”) – giving the city of Bradford a regular link to the ECML at Doncaster – then no.

Any market from Nottingham to Carlisle is going to be tiny. A northbound Sunday lunchtime service and return Sunday teatime service would suit the leisure market, and that’s what Northern have done.

The “extend it to Glasgow” argument doesn’t really convince me, I’m afraid – there are already a couple of trains an hour from Carlisle to Glasgow at many times of the day, so plenty of connections – you’d then struggle to path a 75mph/90mph DMU up the WCML (I know that most S&C services are wholly 158s, but if you want to have the flexibility of adding a 153 on for capacity then you have to path a service for the slowest type of stock)

I would argue not as travelling from the Northern Dales to Skipton by road is lengthy and tedious. There are many people who live in the Dales and who work in Leeds and rail travel is their best bet. And if we were to improve the stopping service their numbers would increase. Not only that but if we are to try and encourage young people to stay in the Dales we need to improve the service to Leeds.

...since you’ve pointed out that there isn’t a single spare 153 in the country (and you don’t want shuttles from Skipton), I’d be interested to know how you are going to improve journey opportunities for those wanting to get from the Dales to Leeds (?).

I doubt that there are any spare paths at the Leeds end (six EMUs an hour through Kirkstall plus lots of random slow freight plus the current bi-hourly S&C services plus a handful of awkwardly timed Lancaster/Morcambe services), which is why I was suggesting a shuttle to/from Skipton, to connect with those regular EMUs to Leeds/ Bradford (off topic - funny how often I read that Bradford needs better services to places south of it, but you never see people suggest services from Bradford to Morecambe/ Settle etc).

So, if you want to increase the number of journey opportunities from the Settle area to Leeds then you can either find some spare Sprinters with good acceleration to run in the path of a four coach high density 333 on the Airedale service, or you can hope for something simple like a spare 153 to shuttle from Skipton to Ribblehead. It’s not glamorous, it’s not as exciting as running 125mph stock from London up the S&C, but it’d fill the gaps between the current bi-hourly S&C service and would be a good starting position to assess whether there’s much more of a market out there. Who knows, it could even be upgraded to a 142 after a couple of years...

Passenger numbers are now 1.2m a year, compared to 90,000 a year in the early 80s. I really don't think there is much wrong with the current service. It serves the local community, is popular with tourists and is still a viable alternative for Yorkshire to Scotland travel.

Agreed, it’s generally fine as it is.

Maybe if Northern ran a few more trains that are more comfortable. Its a beautiful line that can be barely seen from the window of an 156 or 158. These units are also extremely noisy as the struggle on the route and the vibration is most disconcerting. Given northerns track record, they basically don't give a toss about any of these thing because they get paid whatever stock they run or how low traffic numbers are. They would run pacers on the route if they could

Well, if you want units with big windows, then the view out a bus seated Pacer is pretty scenic...

(the view inside a bus seated Pacer is less scenic, mind)

If i were to be organising a bid for the next Northern franchise i'd be on the blower to the likes of West Coast Railways and getting a quote for how much it would cost them to run a weekend (and possibly summer) service say a 9:00am and a 11:30am steam hauled departure from Leeds and returning departing at 16:00 and 18:30 from Carlisle. This would allow DMUs to be used elsewhere and no doubt increase ridership hugely. I'd ask them to provide drivers, guards and all other staff associated with running a steam service other than a ticket seller/revenue support person which would solely sell tickets onboard.

This would increase ridership no end and if network rail had issues pathing the run arounds at Leeds i'd give KWVR a ring and see if they'd welcome it as a Keighley or Oxenhope to Carlisle service.

I’d not considered a direct steam service from the KWVR up to Carlisle, but I could see it being popular – plus it avoids the complications of paths at the Leeds end (plenty of 333s to connect to at Keighley). Interesting