Class 170/3 cascade to Chiltern postponed/cancelled?

[158722]

No chance mate. Northern cannot spare a single DMU for the forseeable future. Go ask Scotrail...

The DfT paying for the second ScotRail hauled turn around Fife to be reinstated again (it was removed in 2012?) would potentially free up 3 158s with the hauled set replacing one of the 6 car 158 or 170 turns. No crew training, passengers already familar with the stock, etc. Probably one of the easiest options to obtain some extra DMUs, but politically acceptable? Hmmm, thats a different matter...

ScotRail will also have 3 158s free when QS/Motherwell-Cumbernauld goes electric in May and 2 more in December when the same happens on the Whifflet line. Been made clear that these freed up units will be retained for extra services during the Commonwealth games & Ryder cup, plus extra services to Oban and around Inverness. Again, politics will come into any thoughts about DfT leaning on TS for units to be released...

 

[Class83]

The DfT paying for the second ScotRail hauled turn around Fife to be reinstated again (it was removed in 2012?) would potentially free up 3 158s with the hauled set replacing one of the 6 car 158 or 170 turns. No crew training, passengers already familar with the stock, etc. Probably one of the easiest options to obtain some extra DMUs, but politically acceptable? Hmmm, thats a different matter...

ScotRail will also have 3 158s free when QS/Motherwell-Cumbernauld goes electric in May and 2 more in December when the same happens on the Whifflet line. Been made clear that these freed up units will be retained for extra services during the Commonwealth games & Ryder cup, plus extra services to Oban and around Inverness. Again, politics will come into any thoughts about DfT leaning on TS for units to be released...

Scotrail needs to have about 6 DMUs free by summer 2015 for the Borders Railway. They're going to be just as short of units as Northern are from then until the EGIP mainline electrification kicks in between Dec '16 and May '17. At which point I suspect a selection of unrefurbished 158s and possibly some 156s will be surplus.

 

[Manchester77]

I thought boarders railway only needed 3 156s to be freed?

 

[Class83]

I thought boarders railway only needed 3 156s to be freed?

Half hourly service, journey time just under an hour, so minimum of 4 units, extras for peak doubles. You might be right that it's just 3 if they tack it on to the end of the current Newcraighall services, though that would cause problems with the loco hauled diagrams.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Is there a nationwide shortage of stock (DMUs at least) and if so, what's caused it?

 

[Manchester77]

Is there a nationwide shortage of stock (DMUs at least) and if so, what's caused it?

Growth in passenger numbers being higher the the amount of DMUs available

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Growth in passenger numbers being higher the the amount of DMUs available

Why weren't all the TOCs ordering new DMUs? If the passenger numbers had dropped the new ones could have been used and the older DMUs (14xs and 15xs) could have been mothballed

 

[MCR247]

Because ordering stock isn't down the the TOCs, ultimately it's the government (through the DfT)

 

[edwin_m]

The government was going to order new DMUs in about 2009 but changed its mind and decided to support electrification instead. Now the ROSCOs won't order any more DMUs because they are concerned that future electrification means they won't be able to lease them out for their full lifetimes.

 

[northwichcat]

The government was going to order new DMUs in about 2009 but changed its mind and decided to support electrification instead. Now the ROSCOs won't order any more DMUs because they are concerned that future electrification means they won't be able to lease them out for their full lifetimes.

The change regarding the 200+ diesel vehicles for FGW, TPE and Northern was cancelled after DfT decided to find a alternative uses for the old Thameslink EMUs, it was only in the last 12 months or so that it was decided that no new DMUs would be ordered for the forseeable future following further electrification annoucements.

 

[158722]

The change regarding the 200+ diesel vehicles for FGW, TPE and Northern was cancelled after DfT decided to find a alternative uses for the old Thameslink EMUs, it was only in the last 12 months or so that it was decided that no new DMUs would be ordered for the forseeable future following further electrification annoucements.

Indeed, leaving us with a considerable void between the available and required number of DMUs until at least 2016/17 when the effects of the wiring program start to be felt. The cancellation of the order mentioned will be acute and made worse by the lack of progress with Virgin's proposal to order mini-Pendos or whatever to replace their 221s on Brum-Scotland services, given the farce with the WC franchise renewal. And now new emissions regulations are in place, which apparently mean we are unlikely to see any more underfloor engined DMUs, other than the IEPs.

 

[northwichcat]

made worse by the lack of progress with Virgin's proposal to order mini-Pendos or whatever to replace their 221s on Brum-Scotland services, given the farce with the WC franchise renewal.

Well under the Virgin bid the 221s would have been available for another operator with new diesel locos being ordered to serve the non-electrified destinations like Holyhead but under the First bid a similar number of new electric carriages would have been ordered but they proposed they'd keep the 221s as well to serve the non-electrified destinations.

 

[thealexweb]

Indeed, leaving us with a considerable void between the available and required number of DMUs until at least 2016/17 when the effects of the wiring program start to be felt. The cancellation of the order mentioned will be acute and made worse by the lack of progress with Virgin's proposal to order mini-Pendos or whatever to replace their 221s on Brum-Scotland services, given the farce with the WC franchise renewal. And now new emissions regulations are in place, which apparently mean we are unlikely to see any more underfloor engined DMUs, other than the IEPs.

Hasn't the mini-pendo idea been sunk by most of the Scotland to Birmingham services being extended to London? Most are now allocated double voyagers or a nine-car pendo and the demand is there.

 

[northwichcat]

Hasn't the mini-pendo idea been sunk by most of the Scotland to Birmingham services being extended to London? Most are now allocated double voyagers or a nine-car pendo and the demand is there.

Virgin proposed using 6, 9 and 11 car Pendolinos to serve all destinations and future destinations in the WC franchise, with new diesel locos being used to drag them to unelectrified destinations.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Hasn't the mini-pendo idea been sunk by most of the Scotland to Birmingham services being extended to London? Most are now allocated double voyagers or a nine-car pendo and the demand is there.

VT would probably say they want 5-ish full size Pendos (9/11-car) to replace the Euston-Birmingham-Scotland Voyager fleet, and another 7-ish shorter ones for Chester/Holyhead/Shrewsbury (with loco haulage off the wires).
The Blackpool service is interesting - it will start with a 5-car Voyager, but it should really be integrated into the wider Preston-route electric service.
There was also talk of services to Bolton and Stirling after the wires got there.
The 6-car mini Pendolino design is awkward as you can't seriously double it up to 12 cars without a lot of platform extensions.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

VT would probably say they want 5-ish full size Pendos (9/11-car) to replace the Euston-Birmingham-Scotland Voyager fleet, and another 7-ish shorter ones for Chester/Holyhead/Shrewsbury (with loco haulage off the wires).
The Blackpool service is interesting - it will start with a 5-car Voyager, but it should really be integrated into the wider Preston-route electric service.
There was also talk of services to Bolton and Stirling after the wires got there.
The 6-car mini Pendolino design is awkward as you can't seriously double it up to 12 cars without a lot of platform extensions.

What about the rumours that they were looking to take over the Manchester-Scotland routes from TPE, would 6 car mini Pendolinos be used for that route as well?

By the time Blackpool is wired (2016 right?) it should be able to operrate as an electric service straight away (splitting/ joining at Preston?)

 

[158722]

Hasn't the mini-pendo idea been sunk by most of the Scotland to Birmingham services being extended to London? Most are now allocated double voyagers or a nine-car pendo and the demand is there.

Indeed, something like another 6-8 full size Pendo sets would seem like the best way forward now, with 8 or so 221s retained for the Holyhead services until the wires (hopefully) go up there in CP6.

A useful cascade of 221s from WC to XC or ScotRail, who give up 170s which will happily find any number of new homes...

 

[Starmill]

And more specifically the Lymington diesel unit which has been done to death a hundred times on this forum! :roll:

Oh, please God not this AGAIN! :P

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What about the rumours that they were looking to take over the Manchester-Scotland routes from TPE, would 6 car mini Pendolinos be used for that route as well?
By the time Blackpool is wired (2016 right?) it should be able to operrate as an electric service straight away (splitting/ joining at Preston?)

The TP Manchester-Scotland transfer to VT is a frequent suggestion but hasn't got any traction within DfT.
TP being retained as a franchise rather than being merged with Northern also suggests they will keep the service.
But tilting stock would be a good solution, whoever runs the service.
Blackpool-Euston electrics could start in 2016, but there won't be any new VT stock by then.
Either they keep Voyagers or divert the odd Pendolino that way.
We don't know yet how the Blackpool platforms will be configured after electrification.
I don't think they can currently handle an 11-car Pendolino.
Another issue here is the future of the "10th path" out of Euston, with competing VT and Alliance proposals (but no stock to resource it).

 

[Whistler40145]

I thought that a OHLE Feeder Station was required on the North Fylde line so Pendolino stock could work to Blackpool North, but EMUs wouldn't encounter any problems.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I thought that a OHLE Feeder Station was required on the North Fylde line so Pendolino stock could work to Blackpool North, but EMUs wouldn't encounter any problems.

By all accounts the Blackpool line upgrade scheme is under review (costs were too high).
But the Series 2 wiring being used across the NW should be fine for all traffic (autotransformers and all that).

 

[Whistler40145]

So what's happening to the North Fylde line?


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[Taunton]

---- strengthening advertised by SWT for the future the following formations should happen in the peaks ---- 0550 Yeovil-Waterloo: 10-15x

This is the sort of thing the current railway appears to get wrong. Whoever is even awake in deepest rural Somerset at 0550. Not only that, this train appears to leave Salisbury empty at 0430 to run to Yeovil in the first place. Yet its final arrival at Waterloo at 0814 puts it firmly in the peak, and it stops at Basingstoke at 0728 where it probably picks up a third or more of its total load, which is what the strengthening is really needed for. I would guess that Andover and Basingstoke probably provide half the train load, yet to handle these Basingstoke passengers it has already been out for 3 hours, and is taking the Basingstoke passengers on a wholly electrified line in a diesel with 10 engines running.

Is there really not a more efficient way?

 

[3141]

This is the sort of thing the current railway appears to get wrong. Whoever is even awake in deepest rural Somerset at 0550. Not only that, this train appears to leave Salisbury empty at 0430 to run to Yeovil in the first place. Yet its final arrival at Waterloo at 0814 puts it firmly in the peak, and it stops at Basingstoke at 0728 where it probably picks up a third or more of its total load, which is what the strengthening is really needed for. I would guess that Andover and Basingstoke probably provide half the train load, yet to handle these Basingstoke passengers it has already been out for 3 hours, and is taking the Basingstoke passengers on a wholly electrified line in a diesel with 10 engines running.

Is there really not a more efficient way?

I don't think Yeovil is "deepest rural Somerset" any more than Taunton is.

Yes, there is a more efficient way. If the train picks up a third of its total load at Basingstoke, six coaches from Yeovil are sufficient, and you simply prevent anyone from boarding at Basingstoke. Should be done easily enough. Then you use one of the fastest paths from Basingstoke to Waterloo for just six coaches instead of maximising the operation of your scarce resources on one of the busiest lines in the country.

 

[TEW]

This is the sort of thing the current railway appears to get wrong. Whoever is even awake in deepest rural Somerset at 0550. Not only that, this train appears to leave Salisbury empty at 0430 to run to Yeovil in the first place. Yet its final arrival at Waterloo at 0814 puts it firmly in the peak, and it stops at Basingstoke at 0728 where it probably picks up a third or more of its total load, which is what the strengthening is really needed for. I would guess that Andover and Basingstoke probably provide half the train load, yet to handle these Basingstoke passengers it has already been out for 3 hours, and is taking the Basingstoke passengers on a wholly electrified line in a diesel with 10 engines running.

Is there really not a more efficient way?

To be fair, the service only runs as a 3-car 159 from Yeovil-Salisbury, where the other 7 coaches are added. The 0430 ECS runs as a 9-car unit, 6 of those form the 0515 Yeovil-Waterloo, the other 3 the 0550 service.

 

[swt_passenger]

To be fair, the service only runs as a 3-car 159 from Yeovil-Salisbury, where the other 7 coaches are added. The 0430 ECS runs as a 9-car unit, 6 of those form the 0515 Yeovil-Waterloo, the other 3 the 0550 service.

Network Rail spent a fair bit of cash extending platforms for 10 car operation from Salisbury towards Basingstoke - I guess they must have been able to justify it somehow...

 

[NSEFAN]

Yes, there is a more efficient way. If the train picks up a third of its total load at Basingstoke, six coaches from Yeovil are sufficient, and you simply prevent anyone from boarding at Basingstoke. Should be done easily enough. Then you use one of the fastest paths from Basingstoke to Waterloo for just six coaches instead of maximising the operation of your scarce resources on one of the busiest lines in the country.

Would you really want to join the trains at Basingstoke or Salisbury in the morning peak? There is always a risk with joining/splitting trains not working out, which is perhaps why the train is kept at full length from the start?

 

[swt_passenger]

Would you really want to join the trains at Basingstoke or Salisbury in the morning peak? There is always a risk with joining/splitting trains not working out, which is perhaps why the train is kept at full length from the start?

That wasn't actually the suggestion. ITYF that 3141 was sarcastically pointing out that another option would be to run a shortened train east of Basingstoke, because it's capacity was unnecessary west of Basingstoke.

 

[NSEFAN]

That wasn't actually the suggestion. ITYF that 3141 was sarcastically pointing out that another option would be to run a shortened train east of Basingstoke, because it's capacity was unnecessary west of Basingstoke.

My sarcasm detector seems to be malfunctioning.

 

[3141]

Network Rail spent a fair bit of cash extending platforms for 10 car operation from Salisbury towards Basingstoke - I guess they must have been able to justify it somehow...

I was at a meeting in Basingstoke attended by Stuart Palmer, who was SWT's MD back in about 2008, at which he referred to their plans to run some 10-coach trains from Salisbury into London. It was about the time they'd just acquired the eleven class 158s. But although the platforms were extended the lengthened trains didn't appear.

The reason was probably something to do with those DMU trains which run peak-hours diagrams from Basingstoke towards Southampton. I wonder if SWT were expecting to operate them with EMUs and then decided to use the EMUs on some other services.