Class 170/3 cascade to Chiltern postponed/cancelled?

[jopsuk]

Is there many DMUs in storage anywhere in the country (maybe ones that are off-lease) that could come into play?

Definitely not. That's why Scotrail in the last few years have had to run loco hauled services on the Fife circle at peak hours, because they didn't have enough DMUs and needed to run more and longer services.

 

[northwichcat]

*eyes the small surplus of 158s/159s in home TOC's area warily*

Which of course have the necessary provisions for TPE services like FC accommodation, that 158s with other operators like Northern, EMT and ATW do not.

 

[cjmillsnun]

*eyes the small surplus of 158s/159s in home TOC's area warily*

This could be why they agreed to spot hire a 159 to FGW...

 

[swt_passenger]

*eyes the small surplus of 158s/159s in home TOC's area warily*

What does 'home TOCs' mean?

Even SWT couldn't realistically give away 9 x 158s without their service going down the pan...

 

[RobShipway]

What does 'home TOCs' mean?

Even SWT couldn't realistically give away 9 x 158s without their service going down the pan...

Not sure if they still are, but I believe SWT have short term leased more than one Class 158 at a time to other TOC's. I believe while one Class 158, was being leased to FGW, another at the same time was being leased to EMT, correct me if I am wrong which makes me suspect that SWT do have a small surplus of Class 158/159's with spares still available in case they need them.

 

[edwin_m]

If SWT was ever hiring out two 158s at the same time (Northern had one for a while as well) it was several years ago and with increasing passenger numbers they may not be able to spare two today. Even if this isn't so, I can't see where nine or ten will come from, at least until the Blackpool electrification displaces some more 185s. Assuming some EMUs are found to replace them...

 

[swt_passenger]

Not sure if they still are, but I believe SWT have short term leased more than one Class 158 at a time to other TOC's. I believe while one Class 158, was being leased to FGW, another at the same time was being leased to EMT, correct me if I am wrong which makes me suspect that SWT do have a small surplus of Class 158/159's with spares still available in case they need them.

2 units isn't 9.

You can't possibly bring the maintenance allowance into fantasy cascades, even though you could probably generate a few dozen 'spares' around the whole country if you did. Not being able to maintain anything would be a bit stupid wouldn't it...

 

[northwichcat]

at least until the Blackpool electrification displaces some more 185s.

Which is supposed to coincide with the Ordsall Chord opening and a new North TPE timetable which will require additional units similar in number to the number needed to run Airport-Blackpool services. Northern will be in a position to withdraw their services between Stalybridge and Huddersfield when that happens but then they are supposed to extend services to/from Rochdale to Manchester Airport so that they'll be 4tph between Victoria and Manchester Airport over the new Ordsall Chord.

 

[WestCountry]

If SWT was ever hiring out two 158s at the same time (Northern had one for a while as well) it was several years ago and with increasing passenger numbers they may not be able to spare two today.

This month's Modern Railways suggests that they might loan a 159 to FGW over the summer, in addition to the 158, so they can still spare two (perhaps with a few shortforms on London commuter trips during the quieter period?).

Of course, if they're lending them to FGW the units can't go anywhere else.

 

[swt_passenger]

This month's Modern Railways suggests that they might loan a 159 to FGW over the summer, in addition to the 158, so they can still spare two (perhaps with a few shortforms on London commuter trips during the quieter period?).

The possible explanation is in the recent thread (in the allocations forum) about the 159 to FGW for the summer. Since the situation edwin_m described SWT have started to receive more EMUs - part of the internal cascade is to move 158s and 159s back onto the Salisbury - Exeter route to strengthen certain services.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=100009

However it is likely this strengthening isn't happening exactly as planned because the 458/5 introduction is delayed, but by the summer they should have half the 456s in service, and we know that and the pair of 458/5s already in use has released a few 450s, e.g. from the Guildford - Ascot route, and that in turn may have released a 159 or two previously used on Portsmouth Harbour to Basingstoke/Waterloo peak extras. But as I mentioned in that other thread, SWT do have some published plans for the use of the displaced units on the West of England route.

 

[northwichcat]

2 units isn't 9.

The total number of seats on a pair of TPE 170s is 232 so at a pinch they could probably get away with having 4 x 159s and 1 x 158 but realistically I can't see that happening.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Of course, if they're lending them to FGW the units can't go anywhere else.

TPE will have the 170/3s until the May 2015 timetable change. The summer timetable is when operators like ATW and FGW are more likely to sub-lease an extra unit than to sub-lease out one of their units.

 

[3141]

The possible explanation is in the recent thread (in the allocations forum) about the 159 to FGW for the summer. Since the situation edwin_m described SWT have started to receive more EMUs - part of the internal cascade is to move 158s and 159s back onto the Salisbury - Exeter route to strengthen certain services.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=100009

However it is likely this strengthening isn't happening exactly as planned because the 458/5 introduction is delayed, but by the summer they should have half the 456s in service, and we know that and the pair of 458/5s already in use has released a few 450s, e.g. from the Guildford - Ascot route, and that in turn may have released a 159 or two previously used on Portsmouth Harbour to Basingstoke/Waterloo peak extras. But as I mentioned in that other thread, SWT do have some published plans for the use of the displaced units on the West of England route.

I'd be very pleased to see SWT strengthening some of their peak time West of England line services into and out of Waterloo. Several of them currently consist of six or eight coaches, when electric services to Winchester, Southampton and onwards consist of 10 coaches. You can make up a train of 10 DMUs with 2 x 158 and 2 x 159. Between Waterloo and Basingstoke a six-car 159 provides a lot less capacity than 10 cars of 444, though I appreciate that west of Basingstoke the towns of Andover and Salisbury are not as large as Winchester, Eastleigh and Southampton.

My view is not so much that SWT have spare DMU stock but that they don't use them as fully as they might. And that's not only in the peak - I've travelled on a mid-afternoon train from Exeter Central where a single 159 contained many standing passengers, and four or five coaches would have been justified by the demand.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'd be very pleased to see SWT strengthening some of their peak time West of England line services into and out of Waterloo.

That's what they announced isn't it? I didn't want to repeat it again because I'd already copied the relevant bits of the press release into the other thread in the allocations section...

 

[455driver]

I'd be very pleased to see SWT strengthening some of their peak time West of England line services into and out of Waterloo. Several of them currently consist of six or eight coaches, when electric services to Winchester, Southampton and onwards consist of 10 coaches. You can make up a train of 10 DMUs with 2 x 158 and 2 x 159. Between Waterloo and Basingstoke a six-car 159 provides a lot less capacity than 10 cars of 444, though I appreciate that west of Basingstoke the towns of Andover and Salisbury are not as large as Winchester, Eastleigh and Southampton.

My view is not so much that SWT have spare DMU stock but that they don't use them as fully as they might. And that's not only in the peak - I've travelled on a mid-afternoon train from Exeter Central where a single 159 contained many standing passengers, and four or five coaches would have been justified by the demand.

Which platforms are these 10 coach diesel trains going to use at Waterloo?
They currently (as 6/8 coach trains) use platforms 6 and 7 (occasionally 5) which are 8 coach platforms (P5 is 6 coach), there are no 10 coach platforms available for them.

 

[TEW]

Can Platform 7 not fit 10-carriages? The 0550 Yeovil Junction-Waterloo and 0850 Waterloo-Salisbury are both booked 10-carriages and are booked to, and from RTT do seem to, use Platform 7.

 

[455driver]

yes it is (serves me right for not reading through what I am writing), but 5 and 6 are much shorter.

In my defence your honour I dont drive any SWT diesel units and I only drive 5 or 10 coach 444s so dont really have complete knowledge of how many 23m coaches (except 5 or 10 coach lengths) fit in each platform.

 

[TEW]

I've just had a look through. Based on current formations, and the stregnthening advertised by SWT for the future the following formations should happen in the peaks:

0543 Salisbury-Waterloo: 9-159
0515 Yeovil-Waterloo: 9-159
0550 Yeovil-Waterloo: 10-15x
0510 Exeter-Waterloo: 9-159

1620 Waterloo-Exeter: 8-15x
1650 Waterloo-Yeovil: 6-159 (Limited by platform length at Waterloo)
1720 Waterloo-Exeter: 9-159
1750 Waterloo-Yeovil: 8-15x (Currently 6-159 and limited by platform length but SWT advertise this as being lengthened to 8.)
1820 Waterloo-Exeter: 9-159
1850 Waterloo-Salisbury: 6-159

Everything in the morning peak is running at either 9 or 10 coaches, so near maximum capacity. Services in the evening peak are shorted, but the evening peak is probably more spread out.

 

[Muzer]

Sorry, I didn't mean that comment seriously - I'm aware that SWT can't spare 9 DMUs

What does 'home TOCs' mean?

"home TOC's" - as in belonging to* the TOC that operates nearest my home. I didn't phrase that very well


* Yes, I know they're leased and not owned outright



But no, seriously, it does seem to be a bit of a mystery where they'll come from. Maybe the DfT will just give them extra EMUs and hope they go away?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

SWT could free up another DMU by using an EMU all the time on the Lymington branch.

Could a Salisbury-Waterloo train access the old international terminal or is there no physical connection?

 

[Muzer]

From memory of the track layout, I believe they could, but they'd have to cross all the Windsor lines and run on them for a short distance (using the large ladder crossover before Waterloo station), so it'd hardly be practical except maybe very off-peak. Why?

 

[TEW]

SWT could free up another DMU by using an EMU all the time on the Lymington branch.

Yes, they could, but where do you plan on finding this EMU from?

 

[RobShipway]

Yes, they could, but where do you plan on finding this EMU from?

What about any of the two car class 456's, that SWT have recently acquired?

 

[Muzer]

What about any of the two car class 456's, that SWT have recently acquired?

It'll be horrible waste sending them to and from Wimbledon all the time.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

It'll be horrible waste sending them to and from Wimbledon all the time.

They could train a few staff at Bournemouth depot to do the daily and routine maintenance and only send them to Wimbledon for heavier work

 

[Darren R]

Yes, they could, but where do you plan on finding this EMU from?

Take one of Northern's EMUs!

 

[swt_passenger]

Take one of Northern's EMUs!

Is the best suggestion so far...

 

[PHILIPE]

Although it is rather easy to deviate from the Origin of the post, this was relating to TPE and Chiltern (170s) but has now turned into a discussion on various types of SWT trains.

 

[thealexweb]

Is the best suggestion so far...

No chance mate. Northern cannot spare a single DMU for the forseeable future. Go ask Scotrail...

 

[Drsatan]

No chance mate. Northern cannot spare a single DMU for the forseeable future. Go ask Scotrail...

But no doubt Scotrail will state it cannot give up any of the ex Wessex Trains 158s that were "temporarily" loaned to them in 2006... (I can't comment any further, as I'm not familiar with 158 diagrams in Scotland)

 

[455driver]

Although it is rather easy to deviate from the Origin of the post, this was relating to TPE and Chiltern (170s) but has now turned into a discussion on various types of SWT trains.

And more specifically the Lymington diesel unit which has been done to death a hundred times on this forum! :roll: