Class 170/3 cascade to Chiltern postponed/cancelled?

[northwichcat]

Members were pleased to note that DfT had confirmed that the proposal to relocate Class 170 diesel units from the north of England to the south east would not now take place.

http://www.transportforgreatermanch...loads/file/4826/item_04_minutes_28_march_2014

Does anyone have more details on this? If Chiltern are not taking on the 170/3s next year what will they be using instead or will the extra capacity for Chiltern be delayed?

 

[Manchester77]

I saw that too guess this is because in the northern direct award it confirmed that northerns werent to lose any carriages and so TPE couldn't take any 158s off northern

 

[jopsuk]

I wonder if there will now be some sort of "encouragement" given to Chiltern to increase their LCHS fleet with further fully upgraded rakes, freeing up DMUs for other services?

 

[FQ]

I wonder if there will now be some sort of "encouragement" given to Chiltern to increase their LCHS fleet with further fully upgraded rakes, freeing up DMUs for other services?

Agreed.
As that was the original plan maybe chiltern will get enough 68s to work all of the Birmingham Moor Street trains and the Kidderminster's. It is obvious that not all of the 68s would need to be in service on weekends so chiltern could maybe a few 168s could drop onto a few Birmingham trains.

 

[Wolfie]

I wonder if there will now be some sort of "encouragement" given to Chiltern to increase their LCHS fleet with further fully upgraded rakes, freeing up DMUs for other services?

It was previously announced that the transfer to Chiltern was going to be delayed until 2015 (eg see link). I strongly suspect that this is nothing more than that. Given that Chiltern and Porterbrook presumably have a legally binding contract I strongly suspect DfT would have to offer something much more substantial than "encouragement" (try £s and lots of them!) for the transfer to actually be completely cancelled at their instigation.

http://www.globalrailnews.com/2014/03/13/ftpe-class-170s-to-move-over-to-chiltern-in-2015/

 

[Tetchytyke]

Can TOCs enter into rolling stock contracts without DfT approval?

That's often cited as the reason why the likes of Northern are "not allowed" to hire more trains, so I'd be surprised if Chiltern had been able to.

 

[northwichcat]

Can TOCs enter into rolling stock contracts without DfT approval?

I think they are if the franchise doesn't operate on a financial subsidy.

 

[swt_passenger]

Can TOCs enter into rolling stock contracts without DfT approval?

That's often cited as the reason why the likes of Northern are "not allowed" to hire more trains, so I'd be surprised if Chiltern had been able to.

Chiltern definitely had 'DfT approval'. There was a letter quoted a few weeks back explaining to the transport select committee that the decision was delegated to DfT officials:

...officials, acting under the agreed process and within the delegated authority, gave consent for the lease on behalf of the SofS in February 2014.

http://www.parliament.uk/documents/...ughlin to ChairTransPennine Rolling Stock.pdf

 

[northwichcat]

It was previously announced that the transfer to Chiltern was going to be delayed until 2015 (eg see link).

TPE's lease for the 170/3s expires on 02/2015 so Porterbrook would be breaching that if they leased to Chiltern before then without TPE agreeing. There's also an up-to 28 week extension clause written in to the leasing agreements which can be enforced if replacement rolling stock isn't sourced in time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Out of interest, out of all the 170s which interiors would most closely match what Chiltern require? A lot of people were commenting on the 170/3s not having plug sockets, wi-fi, only having 8 FC seats per unit etc.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

http://www.transportforgreatermanch...loads/file/4826/item_04_minutes_28_march_2014

I see this quotation has even found its way onto Chiltern's Wikipedia entry.
What a pity nobody knows what it means.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiltern_Railways

The Porterbrook lease-end dates show 31 December 2021 for the FTPE class 170s, which happens to be the same date as Chiltern's class 168s.
http://www.porterbrook.com/pages/LeaseEndDates.htm

 

[TEW]

Out of interest, out of all the 170s which interiors would most closely match what Chiltern require? A lot of people were commenting on the 170/3s not having plug sockets, wi-fi, only having 8 FC seats per unit etc.

TPE's 170s do have plug sockets don't they? Do any any 170s have wi-fi? Do any other than TPE ones have plug sockets, apart from a couple in First Class? Chiltern don't have any First Class so the small number of First Class seats is a good thing if anything.

 

[RPM]

TPE's 170s do have plug sockets don't they? Do any any 170s have wi-fi? Do any other than TPE ones have plug sockets, apart from a couple in First Class? Chiltern don't have any First Class so the small number of First Class seats is a good thing if anything.

I think Chiltern's proposal is/was to substantially refurbish them to match the 168 specification/interior, so the existing layout & facilities are not a factor.

 

[thealexweb]

Good.

However, the discussions in to more rolling stock for TPE and Northern should continue. The overcrowding continues to be frustrating as hell.

 

[umontu]

TPE's 170s do have plug sockets don't they? Do any any 170s have wi-fi? Do any other than TPE ones have plug sockets, apart from a couple in First Class? Chiltern don't have any First Class so the small number of First Class seats is a good thing if anything.

Yes.
No.
Yes.

 

[samuelmorris]

I'm sure someone told me a Cross Country 170 they travelled on had plug sockets. Don't know if they differ by subclass, though.

 

[sng7]

All the Scotrail 170s are wifi fitted now

 

[Philip Elliott]

I'm sure someone told me a Cross Country 170 they travelled on had plug sockets. Don't know if they differ by subclass, though.

Only in First Class.

 

[northwichcat]

I see this quotation has even found its way onto Chiltern's Wikipedia entry.
What a pity nobody knows what it means.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiltern_Railways

Really if there's uncertainty about what will happen then I don't think it should be mentioned at all on Wikipedia until something is confirmed.

The Porterbrook lease-end dates show 31 December 2021 for the FTPE class 170s, which happens to be the same date as Chiltern's class 168s.

Porterbrook haven't made any announcement on their website about a deal with Chiltern for the 170/3s. The only leasing deal they've announced is that they've extended the leases with Northern Rail. They also mention Scotrail 158s getting wi-fi which implies that lease will be extended but nothing about Chiltern or possible conversion of 170/3s in to 168s. However, the date given suggests the 170/3s aren't now available for another operator to take on until 2021.

http://www.porterbrook.com/pages/corp2014.html

 

[CyrusWuff]

Porterbrook haven't made any announcement on their website about a deal with Chiltern for the 170/3s. The only leasing deal they've announced is that they've extended the leases with Northern Rail. They also mention Scotrail 158s getting wi-fi which implies that lease will be extended but nothing about Chiltern or possible conversion of 170/3s in to 168s. However, the date given suggests the 170/3s aren't now available for another operator to take on until 2021.

I don't think the "Lease End Dates" table is up to date, as it shows the Northern leases still expiring on 01/04/2014, despite the item on the news page about the franchise extension to 02/2016.

 

[swt_passenger]

Looks now like this 'postponement/cancellation' is based on a misreading of the situation by someone at TfGM, according to Tony Miles' posts in wnxx overnight.

TPE have told him nothing has changed...

 

[Tetchytyke]

Call me an old cynic, but Chiltern Railways go through Conservative heartlands and TPE generally go through Labour heartlands. There's a general election coming up in 2015, and there's plenty of bitching about overcrowding on Chiltern.

I'm sure none of this has influenced DafT in any way, shape or form, just as it obviously hasn't with First Great Western converting a load of first class carriages for the benefit of home counties commuters.

It'll be interesting what happens. If there's enough stink I can see Chiltern sub-leasing the 170s back to TPE in the short-term, just as Northern had to sub-lease all their 158s to Scotrail.

 

[northwichcat]

Call me an old cynic, but Chiltern Railways go through Conservative heartlands and TPE generally go through Labour heartlands. There's a general election coming up in 2015, and there's plenty of bitching about overcrowding on Chiltern.

I wonder who originally gave Chiltern the idea of taking on the TPE 170/3s. Given there are plans for TPE to have 60 x DMUs until December 2018, taking the LO 172s (or LM 170s released by a cascaded of 172s to LM) would have made more sense.

It'll be interesting what happens. If there's enough stink I can see Chiltern sub-leasing the 170s back to TPE in the short-term, just as Northern had to sub-lease all their 158s to Scotrail.

One thing we now know is the Northern Direct Award states that they'll be able to keep all their DMUs until February 2016. Stephen Hammond has assured Northern MPs that TPE will get replacement stock for the 170s so TPE services don't need to be cut back or short formed. Unless an operator takes on loco-hauled stock then someone is going to lose DMUs without getting replacement diesel stock.

 

[swt_passenger]

I wonder who originally gave Chiltern the idea of taking on the TPE 170/3s. Given there are plans for TPE to have 60 x DMUs until December 2018, taking the LO 172s (or LM 170s released by a cascaded of 172s to LM) would have made more sense.

What would LO have used until 2019 then?

 

[northwichcat]

What would LO have used until 2019 then?

LO will start to get new EMUs in 2017 (to replace 315s with Anglia and 172s on Gospel Oak): https://www.publictenders.net/node/2559296 so how are they not better placed to release 172s ahead of TPE releasing 170s? I didn't say it was a good solution just that it would have made more sense than Chiltern taking TPE's 170s.

 

[swt_passenger]

LO will start to get new EMUs in 2017 (to replace 315s with Anglia and 172s on Gospel Oak): https://www.publictenders.net/node/2559296 so how are they not better placed to release 172s ahead of TPE releasing 170s? I didn't say it was a good solution just that it would have made more sense than Chiltern taking TPE's 170s.

The timescales for Chiltern wanting the extra 170s are for 2015. LO 172 would be two years late. That's all I'm saying...

 

[3141]

I wonder who originally gave Chiltern the idea of taking on the TPE 170/3s. Given there are plans for TPE to have 60 x DMUs until December 2018, taking the LO 172s (or LM 170s released by a cascaded of 172s to LM) would have made more sense.

Could they have thought of it for themselves?

 

[northwichcat]

The timescales for Chiltern wanting the extra 170s are for 2015. LO 172 would be two years late. That's all I'm saying...

And if you wait until the 170s are surplus to requirements with TPE then that's the end of 2018 assuming North TPE electrification runs to schedule and TPE get EMUs in time.

 

[Muzer]

I wonder who originally gave Chiltern the idea of taking on the TPE 170/3s. Given there are plans for TPE to have 60 x DMUs until December 2018, taking the LO 172s (or LM 170s released by a cascaded of 172s to LM) would have made more sense.



One thing we now know is the Northern Direct Award states that they'll be able to keep all their DMUs until February 2016. Stephen Hammond has assured Northern MPs that TPE will get replacement stock for the 170s so TPE services don't need to be cut back or short formed. Unless an operator takes on loco-hauled stock then someone is going to lose DMUs without getting replacement diesel stock.

*eyes the small surplus of 158s/159s in home TOC's area warily*

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Is there many DMUs in storage anywhere in the country (maybe ones that are off-lease) that could come into play?

 

[route:oxford]

Is there many DMUs in storage anywhere in the country (maybe ones that are off-lease) that could come into play?

The only "spare" DMUs are the ones on heritage railways - most of which are no longer suitable for use on mainline railways.