Where a delayed peak train runs in the path of an off-peak train

[northwichcat]

This morning I saw a 150 passing through Knutsford at around the time I expected to see the 08:04 Chester-Manchester passing through. However, it was actually the 06:54 Chester-Manchester running 67 minutes late.

This has made me think what if it was the 08:04 Chester-Manchester that was running around an hour late? As there aren't information displays or PA systems at most stations on the line most people wouldn't know whether the previous train had been cancelled or whether the previous train was very late so a lot would board that service with off-peak tickets unless the conductor (or station staff where available) told them otherwise. Could an operator penalise passengers for being on a peak service with off-peak services in such circumstances?

 

[bb21]

In theory if the restriction forbids it then yes, but I would imagine discretion being shown in this case. Imagine the public outcry otherwise.

 

[DJL]

If the train is that late aren't all the passengers* entitled to a full refund anyway?
That being the case the type of ticket you have seems somewhat irrelevant...
(Although I could see there could be issues with 1st/std class and it seems logical to me that if the train is full priority should be given to those with thee peak tickets as they have, presumably, been waiting longer!

*At least all the ones who originally planned to catch that same train.

 

[yorkie]

Could an operator penalise passengers for being on a peak service with off-peak services in such circumstances?

In theory yes, depending on the wording of the restriction code, an excess fare could be charged. However the passengers would be able to fight back, by contacting Customer Services, Passenger Focus, and let's just say 'other avenues' available to them. I would therefore suggest that the issuing of an excess fare would be unwise.

 

[northwichcat]

If the train is that late aren't all the passengers* entitled to a full refund anyway?

Compensation varies between operators, under Northern you need a 60 minute delay before you get any compensation and then it's 25% of the cost of a return ticket or 50% of a single ticket in the form of rail travel vouchers - not a cash/card refund. Monthly and annual season ticket holders have different criteria. If you haven't started your outward journey and decide not to travel due to the disruption then you can get a full refund on your unused ticket.

That being the case the type of ticket you have seems somewhat irrelevant...

*At least all the ones who originally planned to catch that same train.

Well in the example I gave the people holding the tickets with the B3 restrictions are the ones who haven't been waiting an hour.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In theory yes, depending on the wording of the restriction code, an excess fare could be charged. However the passengers would be able to fight back, by contacting Customer Services, Passenger Focus, and let's just say 'other avenues' available to them. I would therefore suggest that the issuing of an excess fare would be unwise.

Interestingly while National Rail restrictions say the scheduled departure time applies to the restriction e.g. http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/63107.aspx for the TfGM Wayfarer ticket the TfGM site says:

"Wayfarer lets you travel for a whole day by bus at any time and by train and tram after 9.30am weekdays and anytime Saturday, Sunday and public holidays."

http://tfgm.com/journey_planning/Tickets/Pages/tickets_wayfarer.aspx which implies the actual departure time opposed to the scheduled departure time.

 

[yorkie]

If the train is that late aren't all the passengers* entitled to a full refund anyway?

I agree that passengers wishing to take the delayed train are entitled to a full refund, if they wish to abandon their journey.

The 0829 arrival at Manchester arrived at 0931, the 0856 terminated Stockport 0931 and so passengers would have arrived at 0847, and the 0935 arrival arrived at 1002.

Delay compensation is subject to the delay to a passengers' journey.

That being the case the type of ticket you have seems somewhat irrelevant...

Northern will pay compensation if "a delay to a Northern service adds an hour or more to your journey..." which means exactly that.

To clarify, compensation is not due if your journey was delayed less than an hour but the train itself was running over an hour late.

 

[yorkie]

...for the TfGM Wayfarer ticket the TfGM site says:
http://tfgm.com/journey_planning/Tickets/Pages/tickets_wayfarer.aspx which implies the actual departure time opposed to the scheduled departure time.

Indeed, the restrictions on some tickets are worded simply as 'valid after <time>' and such tickets are valid on late running trains which were scheduled to operate at a barred time. This is very common with Rovers, Day Rangers, and other zonal products.

 

[bunnahabhain]

In theory if the restriction forbids it then yes, but I would imagine discretion being shown in this case. Imagine the public outcry otherwise.

It depends on the circumstances really, if you're running 30 minutes late and its an hourly service then no, I'd charge the peak time fare. People who are catching the train would be prepared to pay the peak time fare and if they feel they deserve compensation for the delay then they can go through that process. Its not for the person who sells the ticket to decide whether they deserve it or not, especially as they could have sold tickets to another 100 people who were otherwise not shown that discretion by virtue of being on the train before it was delayed.

Edit

It also depends upon your perception of such an event. As a passenger boarding half a dozen stops later near the end of the journey after the off-peak ticket becomes available, you're going to want that because it saves you money on the normal fare. As a member of staff I'm going to consider all aspects of that and issue you the "fair fare", which in that case and my view would be the full fare because that is fair to all of the passengers and isn't positively discriminating towards you.

 

[Chrisgr31]

It depends on the circumstances really, if you're running 30 minutes late and its an hourly service then no, I'd charge the peak time fare. People who are catching the train would be prepared to pay the peak time fare and if they feel they deserve compensation for the delay then they can go through that process. Its not for the person who sells the ticket to decide whether they deserve it or not, especially as they could have sold tickets to another 100 people who were otherwise not shown that discretion by virtue of being on the train before it was delayed.

Edit

It also depends upon your perception of such an event. As a passenger boarding half a dozen stops later near the end of the journey after the off-peak ticket becomes available, you're going to want that because it saves you money on the normal fare. As a member of staff I'm going to consider all aspects of that and issue you the "fair fare", which in that case and my view would be the full fare because that is fair to all of the passengers and isn't positively discriminating towards you.

The reality is that if it is an hourly service running half an hour late you are unlikely to be at the station in order to catch it!

So lets say its an hourly service running 55 minutes late, so there is every chance passengers for the later train will be there.

Passengers arent going to want to cacth it because it saves them money but because if one train is 55 minutes its a fair certainity that the next one will be late (albeit not necessarially so late) so the reason people will want to catch it is that the late running one will get the to their destination at the time they want to get to it.

 

[northwichcat]

The reality is that if it is an hourly service running half an hour late you are unlikely to be at the station in order to catch it!

There might be some passengers who just turn up without looking at the timetable but the majority intending to catch the next train, as you say, would not be at the station yet in those circumstances.

 

[Muzer]

I think some people are somewhat missing the point - the point is that the passenger has *no way of knowing* (since there are no real-time information screens at many stations in the north) that it's the earlier train they're getting on if it's sufficiently delayed, so could unwittingly be having to pay a peak time fare when they thought they were getting the later off-peak train. By the time they're on it, it's too late.

 

[jon0844]

I'd hope discretion was shown and it wouldn't be a big deal for the (hopefully relatively) few times it happened.

I totally agree with the comment that a heavily delayed train might be seen as worth boarding even if the scheduled one is only a short time away (and perhaps even showing as 'On Time') as it's quite possible that it won't be on time in reality.

Even places with screens can get this wrong, as the train you're waiting for is on time until it starts and the system(s) notice that the train isn't there, and starts to count up the delay minutes. Over the years I've been caught out by this a few times, although some systems are now a bit more intelligent or are manually updated (such as when everything goes tits up).

Without a screen, it must be even more confusing.

On the plus side, it should just be an excess so it's not as if your mistake will land you in court or get you a criminal record.

 

[northwichcat]

On the plus side, it should just be an excess so it's not as if your mistake will land you in court or get you a criminal record.

Although if you are asked to excess what if you don't have the funds for an excess available?

Even places with screens can get this wrong, as the train you're waiting for is on time until it starts and the system(s) notice that the train isn't there, and starts to count up the delay minutes. Over the years I've been caught out by this a few times, although some systems are now a bit more intelligent or are manually updated (such as when everything goes tits up).

Sometimes if a train is say, 3 minutes late it appears as 'on time' and has disappeared from the displays before the train actually arrives.

 

[bb21]

Although if you are asked to excess what if you don't have the funds for an excess available?

An Unpaid Fares Notice can be issued.

 

[jon0844]

Sometimes if a train is say, 3 minutes late it appears as 'on time' and has disappeared from the displays before the train actually arrives.

Yes, and it all depends on the location and how the screens are fed information.

We have real time information on buses in Hertfordshire, but it rarely works and often gives incorrect data (i.e. suggesting a bus is 8 or 9 minutes away, then it turns up in 2 minutes) and often reverts back to just showing the timetable - which means the bus goes the minute after it was due, even though it hasn't arrived yet.

I believe that many rail users also get data that is just fixed, but how is the poor passenger supposed to know about all the different setups (and indeed how they can each go wrong at times).

 

[island]

An Unpaid Fares Notice can be issued.

While this is technically true, a guard who posts regularly has pointed out that a UPFN can only be issued for a full anytime fare.

 

[Haywain]

While this is technically true, a guard who posts regularly has pointed out that a UPFN can only be issued for a full anytime fare.

A Unpaid Fares Notice (UFN) can be issued for any outstanding amount, such as an excess fare. However, a Penalty Fare (PF) would only take into account the full anytime fare (ie: £20 or twice the full anytime fare, whichever is the higher).

 

[island]

A Unpaid Fares Notice (UFN) can be issued for any outstanding amount, such as an excess fare. However, a Penalty Fare (PF) would only take into account the full anytime fare (ie: £20 or twice the full anytime fare, whichever is the higher).

That contradicts what other posters who are known to be rail staff have said.

 

[Flamingo]

A UFN is supposed to be for the full anytime fare, but can only be pursued for the ammount on it if it is done for a lesser ammount, I know that, so I suppose it could be filled in for an excess if appropriate.

Maybe Fare-Cop can give a clarification.

 

[318259]

Indeed, the restrictions on some tickets are worded simply as 'valid after <time>' and such tickets are valid on late running trains which were scheduled to operate at a barred time.

ScotRail's evening peak is determined by the scheduled departure time. But ScotRail's evening peak has weird rules.

Leave Edinburgh Haymarket at peak time and travel towards Glasgow, you need a peak ticket.

Leave Slateford during peak time, travel one stop to Haymarket, then get a train from Haymarket towards Glasgow, you can travel with an off-peak ticket.

 

[MyFriendMary]

A UFN is supposed to be for the full anytime fare, but can only be pursued for the ammount on it if it is done for a lesser ammount, I know that, so I suppose it could be filled in for an excess if appropriate.

Maybe Fare-Cop can give a clarification.

I'm pretty sure it can be any fare, although it is encouraged to be the full anytime fare. Usually I write in the "additional information for staff use" section what ticket I have issued.

E.g. Oxford - Bristol Temple Meads Anytime Single.

 

[Flamingo]

I'm trying to cast my mind back to what Rocky told us...

 

[MyFriendMary]

Same :P



I should be seeing an RPI later so I'll let you know Flamingo

 

[talldave]

I've often caught a late running peak train, as long as it arrives after my off peak train should have departed.It can't physically re-peak itself again and I always arrive at or after 09.50 at my destination- which is the off peak restriction for my ticket. I've not gained anything - in fact I'm usually later than if everything had been running smoothly. So it doesn't feel as if I've broken my side of the contract even though many would disagree.