DMU/EMU units poorly utilised on their current duties

[evergreenadam]

For a number of reasons services are allocated inappropriate rolling stock which could be used elsewhere to benefit the rail network as a whole. Such examples include DMUs operating wholly under the wires (part operation has been covered in another thread), longer trains operating on branch lines where capacity is not required, higher speed rolling stock operating slow services.

Thought it would be good to put together a list to see how much stock could be redeployed if solutions were available.

Virgin
Voyager DMUs operating under the wires on WCML.

SWT
Lymington branch class 158 DMU if electric stock could be found that depot staff were already trained on.

London Midland
St Alban's branch class 321 EMU could be used on WCML commuter services if a standard class only EMU unit could be found. Would 3 cars suffice?

 

[455driver]

For a number of reasons services are allocated inappropriate rolling stock which could be used elsewhere to benefit the rail network as a whole. Such examples include DMUs operating wholly under the wires (part operation has been covered in another thread), longer trains operating on branch lines where capacity is not required, higher speed rolling stock operating slow services.

Thought it would be good to put together a list to see how much stock could be redeployed if solutions were available.

Virgin
Voyager DMUs operating under the wires on WCML.

SWT
Lymington branch class 158 DMU if electric stock could be found that depot staff were already trained on.

London Midland
St Alban's branch class 321 EMU could be used on WCML commuter services if a standard class only EMU unit could be found. Would 3 cars suffice?

The highlighted bit will be the answer to most of the posts on here!

Virgin
Dont have enough Pendolinos so are forced to use the only available stock they have.

SWT
Needed the 450 previously used on the branch to strengthen a Waterloo service,the only stock available was the 158s so that is what is used.

LM
Dont have any 3 coach EMUs so your point is mute.

 

[Qwerty133]

LM
Dont have any 3 coach EMUs so your point is mute.

I must miss the forth coach on the 323s, every time I pass through New Street
Not that there available for the abbey line, for a number of reasons, but they do have some

 

[evergreenadam]

The highlighted bit will be the answer to most of the posts on here!

Virgin
Dont have enough Pendolinos so are forced to use the only available stock they have.

SWT
Needed the 450 previously used on the branch to strengthen a Waterloo service,the only stock available was the 158s so that is what is used.

LM
Dont have any 3 coach EMUs so your point is mute.

The point being that most focus is on cascades of DMUs as a result of electrification, but that is taking longer than expected due to new Thameslink rolling stock contract delays and doubtless there will be infrastructure delays too - Electric Spine. Building some duplicates of existing stock might be easier in the short term would also allow cascades. For example some more Pendolinos.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

I must miss the forth coach on the 323s, every time I pass through New Street
Not that there available for the abbey line, for a number of reasons, but they do have some

323s have about the same capacity as as a 321 and who will pay to train all the crews on them and get them to and from Soho for maintenance. In any case they are all going to be on Cross City from December so it's an invalid argument.

 

[455driver]

I must miss the forth coach on the 323s, every time I pass through New Street
Not that there available for the abbey line, for a number of reasons, but they do have some

Okay they dont have any 3 coach trains IN THAT AREA!

 

[TEW]

SWT
Needed the 450 previously used on the branch to strengthen a Waterloo service,the only stock available was the 158s so that is what is used.

The Lymington branch never regularly used 450s. It went straight from the 3-CIGs to the 158s. As you say though, a 450 isn't available in the week because they are all in use elsewhere.

 

[Rapidash]

The SWT 159's, as they no longer see much of the West

 

[higthomas]

HST's operating wholly under the wires on the ECML

 

[Old Hill Bank]

HST's operating wholly under the wires on the ECML

Whatever we think about IEP there seems to be a plan to resolve that.

 

[158722]

Virgin
Voyager DMUs operating under the wires on WCML.

Indeed. This one seems to be tied in with the WC franchise farce, with Virgin supposedly having included plans to replace most 221s on Brum-Scotland with mini-Pendos. Given that there are a minimum 6x 221s diagrams required for Chester/North Wales services (not sure how many services are pairs), something like 8/9 221s would suffice there with 12/13 221s replaced by a similar mini-Pendos (or whatever - IEPs?!).

With that delayed, the oft quoted idea to merge Manchester Airport-Scotland services back into the WC fold seems to have gone quiet. To me, this seems logical and justifies another 10 mini-Pendos - giving a total build of up to around 25 units.

The TPE 10x 350/4s go off to LM, displacing their 321s (and seeing an unsuitable 350 on the St Albans branch!) whilst the WC 221s head off to XC, displacing their HSTs and allowing a cascade of something like 8x 170s from Notts-Cardiff or Brum-Stansted to other operators.

 

[bramling]

For a number of reasons services are allocated inappropriate rolling stock which could be used elsewhere to benefit the rail network as a whole. Such examples include DMUs operating wholly under the wires (part operation has been covered in another thread), longer trains operating on branch lines where capacity is not required, higher speed rolling stock operating slow services.

Thought it would be good to put together a list to see how much stock could be redeployed if solutions were available.

Virgin
Voyager DMUs operating under the wires on WCML.

SWT
Lymington branch class 158 DMU if electric stock could be found that depot staff were already trained on.

London Midland
St Alban's branch class 321 EMU could be used on WCML commuter services if a standard class only EMU unit could be found. Would 3 cars suffice?

Could I add the small fleets of FCC 317s and 321s .. these trains see minimal use, confined largely to peak hours with just a handful of all-day diagrams, and almost no weekend work.

Very frustrating to experience crowded off-peak 4-car class 365 services, and then to see loads of 317s or 321s parked up in carraige sidings at Peterborough, Cambridge or Welwyn.

 

[petersi]

Very frustrating to experience crowded off-peak 4-car class 365 services, and then to see loads of 317s or 321s parked up in carraige sidings at Peterborough, Cambridge or Welwyn.

The problem is that stations between Royston and Cambridge are only 4 car so the stopper services can only be 4 car


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[causton]

The problem is that stations between Royston and Cambridge are only 4 car so the stopper services can only be 4 car


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A few do detach at Royston/Letchworth (I think) however, so they can run maximum length up until then... doesn't happen enough though as these trains are always busy, unless you're lucky enough to find a fast one starting from Welwyn!

 

[Leylandlad]

185's working Oxenholme-Windermere shuttles...albeit in between workings to Preston/Manchester Airp

Not that I'm complaining about seeing my original local line operated by 185's!

Let's see what electrification brings

 

[Emyr]

Isn't that exactly the hilly kind of route the 185 was geared and engined for?

 

[northwichcat]

16 posts and no-one's mentioned Northern using little old Pacers on long or busy routes yet?

 

[Tetchytyke]

London Midland
St Alban's branch class 321 EMU could be used on WCML commuter services if a standard class only EMU unit could be found. Would 3 cars suffice?

The 321s are the worst trains that London Midland have, and they only have a handful of them, so I really don't think it is being wasted on the Flyer.

The other 321s are mostly confined to the Tring stoppers.

The problem is that stations between Royston and Cambridge are only 4 car so the stopper services can only be 4 car

Off-peak, a good proportion of the non-stoppers are only 4-car as well, especially on weekends. It's ridiculous.

 

[matchmaker]

Scotrail 170's on local services timed for a 156!

 

[bramling]

Off-peak, a good proportion of the non-stoppers are only 4-car as well, especially on weekends. It's ridiculous.

Indeed. It's very frustrating to board trains around the midday period which are only 4-cars long. None of the XX:23 / XX:53 daytime services out of KX, and their corresponding return workings, call at Meldreth, Shepreth and Foxton, and neither do the XX:36 services to Peterborough. Same in the evening, when some of the XX:23 services out of KX can be crush loaded on certain nights.

There are a number of 317 and 321 diagrams which do only one up and one down service each day. I don't believe these units require that much maintenance, especially as there are at least 6 of these units which stable at Welwyn between the peaks, where only basic cleaning is carried out.

And I don't accept that it can't be done because diagrams interwork with services which do call at the 4-car platforms -- there's almost always a way of working out the diagrams in one way or another.

Actually, I'd like to see the service pattern change - bring in a regular fast service KX - Biggleswade, St Neots, Huntington and Peterborough, and divert the XX:36 service to terminate at Letchworth. This would provide a faster service to the Peterborough line, and hopefully avoid the issue of passengers from north of Hitchin filling up the stopping services. Even better if the fast service could be made to call at Hitchin, giving a non-stop service to London. Since the 1990s journey times from Hitchin to London have increased gradually due mainly to pathing issues around the Digswell viaduct section. Nowadays most trains use the slow lines to Woolmer Green and are very likely to have to wait there for another train to pass, which was rarer in the 1990s, and the latest bugbear from the December timetable is that many of these services now cross over to use the Up Slow platform at Finsbury Park. This latter move would be ok if the signalling had a flashing-yellow arrangement, but it doesn't, so it costs another minute -- very annoying when nothing then passes in that time, and even more annoying if the train then regains the UF at Holloway which sometimes happens!

 

[The Snap]

I'm pretty sure that every train to, from and through Hazel Grove is diesel, despite the lines being fully electrified from Manchester. At least it was like that a couple of years ago anyway...

 

[northwichcat]

I'm pretty sure that every train to, from and through Hazel Grove is diesel, despite the lines being fully electrified from Manchester. At least it was like that a couple of years ago anyway...

A couple of years ago there was an evening working that was a 323.

With the current timetable being an hourly Hazel Grove-Preston and an hourly Buxton-Manchester service there are very few options for electric trains running to Hazel Grove.

Even the off-pattern services make it difficult for EMU running, some diagrams include both Chester and Hazel Grove services e.g. the 156 off the 07:48 Hazel Grove-Manchester service works the 08:17 Manchester-Chester service, while others continue to Chinley and beyond e.g. the 05:50 and 17:23 departures from Piccadilly.

 

[plastictaffy]

This did mention that LM do in fact have three car trains, but then I saw that someone else posted this already, with a reply from 455driver on the matter.

With regard to the Abbey line, as has been mentioned before, there are only a handful of unit types that can be used on the route due to clearances and platform lengths. For a long time, there has been a wish to make it a tram type thing like the Stourbridge branch.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The 321s are the worst trains that London Midland have, and they only have a handful of them, so I really don't think it is being wasted on the Flyer.

The other 321s are mostly confined to the Tring stoppers.

There is more work now for 321's than there has ever been. There is a booked diagram that sees a four car work EUS-MKC all day, after running into town as an 8 car. There has also been activity with them at weekends recently, apparently to save mileage on the /2 Desiros, due to someone making a mistake with their sums with regard to leasing and mileage costs.
There's been a rumour floating around that they may run Northampton flyers again in the mornings. That should blow the cobwebs out of the motors!!!!

 

[Beveridges]

142s being used on anything other than a 30 minute stopper.

 

[12CSVT]

Scotrail 170's on local services timed for a 156!

Scotrail 170s on local services out of Glasgow QS and Edinburgh when they have 156s on Glasgow Central to Newcastle services.

 

[Class83]

Scotrail 170s on local services out of Glasgow QS and Edinburgh when they have 156s on Glasgow Central to Newcastle services.

Queen Street and Edinburgh services are commuter services being served by 170s which are designed for the role, mid carriage doors etc. Glasgow Central to Newcastle isn't intended for getting from Glasgow to Newcastle, it's a rural service in SW Scotland and Northern England served by 156s which are suited to this purpose.

 

[Leylandlad]

Isn't that exactly the hilly kind of route the 185 was geared and engined for?

Yes..but the time saving is minimal compared to even a Pacer.

The line was operated by Heaton 143's in the early 90's. Replaced by Newton Heath 156's in 1993...1994 the through Airport services started.

Upgraded to 158's in 1999/2000...175's eventually into service soon after.

185's from 2006.

Only 10 miles, but some journey from a 143 to a 185

2016...who knows...319's, 350's???

 

[Bevan Price]

A couple of years ago there was an evening working that was a 323.

With the current timetable being an hourly Hazel Grove-Preston and an hourly Buxton-Manchester service there are very few options for electric trains running to Hazel Grove.

.

Though that should change ftom 2016 when through electric running should be possible between Hazel Grove and Blackpool North (assuming the DfT manages to get any emus available by then...........)

 

[northwichcat]

Though that should change ftom 2016 when through electric running should be possible between Hazel Grove and Blackpool North (assuming the DfT manages to get any emus available by then...........)

May not change though. Network Rail were looking at whether having 2tph to Buxton or additional services to Sheffield/Chinley via Hazel Grove would be viable, which would see an end to standard pattern services starting/terminating at Hazel Grove. If one of those plans does go ahead I expect we'd see Alderley Edge-Stockport-Manchester services running through to Preston instead of Hazel Grove services.

 

[zn1]

if the TOCS had any sense...they would introduce merrymaker trips...eg LM could shoegear up some 350's and run theirs anywhere where desiros operate....