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Chiltern parliamentary - RAIB investigation

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cjohnson

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Passed two signals at danger and the TPWS had been switched off.

http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/140320_Greenford.cfm

RAIB is investigating an incident in which a passenger train passed two consecutive signals at danger near Greenford, Greater London, on 20 March 2014, and travelled a considerable distance before being stopped
...
RAIB’s preliminary examination found that the train protection and warning system (TPWS) fitted to the train and the two signals concerned did not intervene to stop the train. This was because the on-train TPWS equipment had self-isolated when the driver prepared the train for departure from Paddington. Although the isolation of the equipment was indicated by a flashing light in the cab, the train was driven with the TPWS isolated.
 
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DaveHarries

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Comment retracted following feedback from moderator. Sorry for any annoyance caused by it.

Dave
 
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TheEdge

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Is there a reason that it needs to do that? Because to a layman it sounds like a major flaw.

Someone who knows 100% will either confirm or deny this but I believe there is a problem at Norwich where sometimes the 90s if they've stopped a little short can be over the grids. Also sometimes happens to the 47s if they are in P6.

In short I *think* if the TPWS is set up and the loco is over a grid associated with a signal at danger the TPWS will set off and stay activated.
 

Minilad

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This happens often at New St.
You will notice the TPWS light flashing in the cab. Basically all you need to do is pull forward off the grid then key out and back in again and all will be OK. Takes 10 seconds or so. Just inform the guard and platform staff so they don't wonder why you have stopped
 

Tomnick

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Tut tut tut. Glad that Marylebone IECC managed to stop the CR train and prevent what could have been a nasty collision. Sounds to me like someone wasn't concentrating though and if I was the CR driver I would be sweating by now.

Dave
Probably best to let the RAIB investigation determine exactly what factors actually contributed to the incident before condemning the driver's (alleged) lack of concentration.
 

Cherry_Picker

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This happens often at New St.
You will notice the TPWS light flashing in the cab. Basically all you need to do is pull forward off the grid then key out and back in again and all will be OK. Takes 10 seconds or so. Just inform the guard and platform staff so they don't wonder why you have stopped

Just as a point of order, it takes a bit longer on a class 165 because the ATP will need setting up again. The process will probably require 90-120 seconds.
 

theageofthetra

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Could someone give a bit more info on the 'grid' that is referred to by some posters. I assume its some kind of induction coil that sits between the track? Cheers
 

Taunton

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The RAIB have a habit of giving a bit of a "clue" in their initial report of an investigation starting.

This one is illustrated, as we can see, by a photo of the second signal passed at danger, protecting the entrance to the single line, along with its associated Catch Siding. We may ask why, when the signal was at danger because the single line ahead was occupied, the points were not set for the catch siding (otherwise what's the point in having it). We may also ask why, when the photo was taken after the incident, the points are STILL not set for the catch siding when the signal was at danger. We can see that no Up train headed for the turnout to the Ealing branch, visible in the foreground, is signalled, the only time such a combination might be expected.
 

TheEdge

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Could someone give a bit more info on the 'grid' that is referred to by some posters. I assume its some kind of induction coil that sits between the track? Cheers

250px-Tpws_loop.jpg

(Wiki image)

Yes, basically, designed to activate the TPWS on a train to stop it if it passes a signal at danger, is overspeeding and other things.
 

Tomnick

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Presumably the 'catch siding' (not sure exactly what you'd call it, but it performs the function of a set of trap points) would serve to avoid a runaway entering the single line with an opposing move signalled. It wouldn't even do that if the opposing move was signalled towards West Ealing. Either way, it'd almost certainly resulted in a derailment in this case - indeed, it's rare to find any sort of dedicated overrun at the end of a double line.
 

Cherry_Picker

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Could someone give a bit more info on the 'grid' that is referred to by some posters. I assume its some kind of induction coil that sits between the track? Cheers

jZjTq7Al.jpg


It looks like this. You aren't fair off with your idea either, but basically it is a weak radio transmitter which sits in the track and it's capable of talking to a receiver which is mounted on every train. There must be tens of thousands of them on the network, you would be hard pushed not to see one at a reasonably sized station.
It's job is to stop the train in certain circumstances. In laymans terms this will be in one of three situations, ahead of a red signal (where obviously it gets turned off if the signal is displaying a proceed aspect), ahead of buffer stops (these 'grids' tend to be a bit smaller in size than normal ones) and ahead of a permanent speed restriction where the required reduction in speed is fairly significant (this will be two grids a short distance apart working in tandem, the first one starts a timer and the second one will stop the train if it covers that distance too quickly).
There is a receiver in each driving cab so at any location where a train reverses (such as a terminus like Paddington) you always have the possibility that the receiver in the rear cab on arrival will be over the TPWS grid on departure. That can/will cause the TPWS to set up incorrectly and go into temporary isolation mode which is indicated by a bright yellow flashing light in the cab. This can be reset by moving the train away from the grid and then removing and re inserting the key. The process takes between ten seconds and two minutes depending on what type of traction you are driving, on stock fitted with ATP (like Chiltern DMUs) it is very much at the slower end of that time needed.
 

MarkyT

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Does the self isolation of the TPWS also isolate the AWS? In which case there could be no active warning system in the cab.
 

G0ORC

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Probably best to let the RAIB investigation determine exactly what factors actually contributed to the incident before condemning the driver's (alleged) lack of concentration.

Exactly - and wouldn't it be better if those who know nothing about signalling and signalling design stop speculating and let the RAIB carry out their investigation.
 

455driver

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Exactly - and wouldn't it be better if those who know nothing about signalling and signalling design stop speculating and let the RAIB carry out their investigation.

Oh come on, you do realise that anyone with access to w+nkopedia is an ex-spurt on everything dont you! ;)

It is a good larf reading the ill informed drivel though! :lol:
 

TDK

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Does the self isolation of the TPWS also isolate the AWS? In which case there could be no active warning system in the cab.

No it doesn't, it is only the TPWS that is affected.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
jZjTq7Al.jpg


It looks like this. You aren't fair off with your idea either, but basically it is a weak radio transmitter which sits in the track and it's capable of talking to a receiver which is mounted on every train. There must be tens of thousands of them on the network, you would be hard pushed not to see one at a reasonably sized station.
It's job is to stop the train in certain circumstances. In laymans terms this will be in one of three situations, ahead of a red signal (where obviously it gets turned off if the signal is displaying a proceed aspect), ahead of buffer stops (these 'grids' tend to be a bit smaller in size than normal ones) and ahead of a permanent speed restriction where the required reduction in speed is fairly significant (this will be two grids a short distance apart working in tandem, the first one starts a timer and the second one will stop the train if it covers that distance too quickly).
There is a receiver in each driving cab so at any location where a train reverses (such as a terminus like Paddington) you always have the possibility that the receiver in the rear cab on arrival will be over the TPWS grid on departure. That can/will cause the TPWS to set up incorrectly and go into temporary isolation mode which is indicated by a bright yellow flashing light in the cab. This can be reset by moving the train away from the grid and then removing and re inserting the key. The process takes between ten seconds and two minutes depending on what type of traction you are driving, on stock fitted with ATP (like Chiltern DMUs) it is very much at the slower end of that time needed.

Excellent description Mr. Cherry Picker, to add basically the further the grids are apart the faster the train will need to be moving for it to be triggered hence that is why at a red signal the grids are tight against each other. The yellow flashing light on the panel indicates a fault a solid yellow light indicates the system has been temporary isolated. It needs to be temporary isolated in TBW and also when being assisted.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Is there a reason that it needs to do that? Because to a layman it sounds like a major flaw.

It is a flaw but a well known one that all drivers are briefed on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Someone who knows 100% will either confirm or deny this but I believe there is a problem at Norwich where sometimes the 90s if they've stopped a little short can be over the grids. Also sometimes happens to the 47s if they are in P6.

In short I *think* if the TPWS is set up and the loco is over a grid associated with a signal at danger the TPWS will set off and stay activated.

You think wrong I am afraid, you will still get a brake release and be able to proceed if you are over an OSS grid, if you are over a stop grid you are in advance of the stop signal. Any grid even if it is an OSS and even if the signal is showing a proceed aspect the TPWS will show a fault.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just as a point of order, it takes a bit longer on a class 165 because the ATP will need setting up again. The process will probably require 90-120 seconds.

It can take up to 2 minutes in an ERTMS equipped class 158
 

RPM

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I'm not going to comment on this specific incident as it involves one of my depot colleagues. However one thing that I hadn't previously realised is that it is actually possible to set off with the TPWS fault light flashing. I had always assumed it would prevent you getting brake release.

It doesn't particularly apply to the Chiltern 165s, but in many cabs the TPWS panel is situated well away from the driver's line of sight (a legacy of retro-fitting). I would have thought there is a real danger of a driver failing to notice the fault light in these cabs. Combine this with the fact that the fault condition initiates self-isolation and we have a serious potential for wrong side failure. This needs addressing.
 

Taunton

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wouldn't it be better if those who know nothing about signalling and signalling design stop speculating and let the RAIB carry out their investigation.
I disagree with this approach, people (including a number here who are somewhat better informed than this comment implies) are perfectly entitled to have a discussion about the issues of any event.

The RAIB will hopefully report some time before the next century approaches, and even more hopefully will come up with appropriate and incisive findings that are not just along the lines of the politically-correct drivel that their predecessors, the HSE, with their know-nothing career civil servants in charge (because if we are going to speak about know-nothings I would want to include that lot), came up with in reports in the 1990s. Thank goodness that regime has gone.
 

transmanche

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The RAIB will hopefully report some time before the next century approaches, and even more hopefully will come up with appropriate and incisive findings that are not just along the lines of the politically-correct drivel that their predecessors, the HSE, with their know-nothing career civil servants in charge (because if we are going to speak about know-nothings I would want to include that lot), came up with in reports in the 1990s.
That sounds like someone who has never read an RAIB report.
 

carriageline

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Soon as this thread came up, I chose not to reply, simply as it's someone's career on the line here. While some people on here sit and slate the driver for not concentrating is horrid. As normally, the RUK losers are out in force putting their non educated two dimes in, saying what they "think" has happened, think we all need to remember that nothing is known yet, other than TPWS was isolated, and not sure why. We have to be very grateful it happened where it did, and not on the approach to a busy mainline station, (another ladbroke grove, for example?)

Either way, this highlights some major flaws, in both the TPWS, and that Greenford box couldn't get an emergency call over to the driver, for whatever reason. Hope there is more to it, and the driver doesn't end up on the street, who knows!
 

talltim

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think we all need to remember that nothing is known yet, other than TPWS was isolated, and not sure why.

And that they went through two red signals.

Quite frankly, I never understand why people say that this sort of thing shouldn't be discussed. As long as people that don't know don't claim they do, its not an issue and those of us that don't know all the technical details can learn something. There are plenty of people here that do know this stuff and do it for a living. For example, I've learnt from this thread and a similar on one WNXX 100% more than I knew before about TPWS grids and the problems they can cause.
I have a question. Is a flashing warning light that is not in the normal line of site more less effective than a steady light? In theory flashing is more noticeable as your eye and brain are built to notice movement/change; but if you just happen to glance for a short period you might only see it in the off state.
 
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carriageline

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And that they went through two red signals.

Quite frankly, I never understand why people say that this sort of thing shouldn't be discussed. As long as people that don't know don't claim they do, its not an issue and those of us that don't know all the technical details can learn something. For example, I've learnt from this thread and a similar on one WNXX 100% more than I knew before about TPWS grids and the problems they can cause.
I have a question. Is a flashing warning light that is not in the normal line of site more less effective than a steady light? In theory flashing is more noticeable as your eye' brain are built to notice movement/change; but if you just happen to glance for a short period you might only see it in the off state.

Yeah, the two red signals is a little thing really lol :lol:, the fact the TPWS failed to stop the train is the monumental balls up. but as I said, maybe it's a good thing it was done here, not on the approach to a busy station or something!!

Personally, I think discussion on these things is good. But when people post comments like "to me it sounds like he wasn't concentrating" gets my bloody boiling (as you can tell :lol:), threads like this help the unknowledgeable get knowledgeable, which helps a lot on here!
 

Greenback

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There is nothign wrong at all with having a discussion, as has been said a lot cna be learned form the members here that know what they are talking about.

However, we should all be careful about to coming to conclusions about what could have happened when we haven;t got all fo the information in front of us. There's a very thin line between speculating on what might or might not have happened in any given situation, and deciding what is likely to have happened. The latter should be avoided.
 

Searle

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carriageline:1761897 said:
Soon as this thread came up, I chose not to reply, simply as it's someone's career on the line here. While some people on here sit and slate the driver for not concentrating is horrid. As normally, the RUK losers are out in force putting their non educated two dimes in, saying what they "think" has happened, think we all need to remember that nothing is known yet, other than TPWS was isolated, and not sure why. We have to be very grateful it happened where it did, and not on the approach to a busy mainline station, (another ladbroke grove, for example?)

Either way, this highlights some major flaws, in both the TPWS, and that Greenford box couldn't get an emergency call over to the driver, for whatever reason. Hope there is more to it, and the driver doesn't end up on the street, who knows!

RUK losers? Please. Everyone can have an opinion on it, no matter how educated they are on the matter. What people say on here isn't going to affect the career of whoever is involved, and there's nothing wrong with voicing your opinion, this is a public forum after all.
 
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carriageline

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I don't mind people having an opinion, regardless of education, if you read my post you would see that!!!! But jumping to conclusions, spouting accusations like that is awful. God forbid I had any sort of incident, the last thing I would want to do is come on here and see people jumping to conclusion, saying I did XYZ, when the story is completly different!
 

O L Leigh

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Just to clear up a slight misapprehension.

The TPWS does not "self-isolate". If you make the cab live while the TPWS receiver is on top of a live set of TPWS antenna it will produce a fault in the system that will prevent the TPWS from operating correctly. This is not a flaw in the sense that it is an oversight but simply a feature of the system.

It is the same with the AWS if the AWS receiver is stopped over an AWS magnet. You get an AWS indication that simply cannot be cancelled and the brakes will not release.

O L Leigh
 
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