Thameslink Southern & Great Northern Franchise

[A-driver]

No but then again first day of the franchise Southern could still be a separate company.



When Southern control merges with Thameslink there are job losses expected with the control. Doesn't require new people only less.

But you are on about job losses, not a new team of people which is what was being discussed. The people working on the ground in customer facing roles, control, depots, drivers etc will all be the same and not new/different to now. Yes, duplicated roles will be reduced but they won't have a new team coming in with the franchise winner, it will be people who currently do the job now, perhaps sadly not all of them though.

 

[Chrisgr31]

But you are on about job losses, not a new team of people which is what was being discussed. The people working on the ground in customer facing roles, control, depots, drivers etc will all be the same and not new/different to now. Yes, duplicated roles will be reduced but they won't have a new team coming in with the franchise winner, it will be people who currently do the job now, perhaps sadly not all of them though.

Bearing in mind the biggest complaint about Southern appears to be the meltdown it goes into when it goes wrong one would have thought they could do with more people in control not less!

 

[A-driver]

Bearing in mind the biggest complaint about Southern appears to be the meltdown it goes into when it goes wrong one would have thought they could do with more people in control not less!

From my POV as a driver I certainly agree! 2 people in the GN control during disruption is half the problem! You just can't get through on the phone and often even the signaller who is sitting next to them can't talk to them as they are so snowed under!

But the accountants no best of course...

(I should add incase of any doubt that those working in control themselves are great and certainly know what they are doing, it's just the fact that they have an unworkable work load during disruption. They obviously can only answer one phone each for a start. )

 

[Class377/5]

But you are on about job losses, not a new team of people which is what was being discussed. The people working on the ground in customer facing roles, control, depots, drivers etc will all be the same and not new/different to now. Yes, duplicated roles will be reduced but they won't have a new team coming in with the franchise winner, it will be people who currently do the job now, perhaps sadly not all of them though.

I was discussing job losses hence by reply on that subject, I didn't mention new staff. And yes all of my team (myself included) are currently unsure about our futures, something not being faced by other frontline staff such as your role.

The change isn't limited to the merging neither with TMS meaning the current control setup won't exist with 5-10 years.

 

[grid56126]

From my POV as a driver I certainly agree! 2 people in the GN control during disruption is half the problem! You just can't get through on the phone and often even the signaller who is sitting next to them can't talk to them as they are so snowed under!

But the accountants no best of course...

(I should add incase of any doubt that those working in control themselves are great and certainly know what they are doing, it's just the fact that they have an unworkable work load during disruption. They obviously can only answer one phone each for a start. )

I absolutely loved my few years there (in CONtrol 2002 to about 2007/8). The route was small enough to have a tigh nit feel but big enough to keep us occupied. I don't miss "back trippings" and the inevitable trip cock tester failures, but I do miss some amazing staff in al grades.

 

[talldave]

Bearing in mind the biggest complaint about Southern appears to be the meltdown it goes into when it goes wrong one would have thought they could do with more people in control not less!

I think people with a different mindset is what's required. The problem with Southern people is that they do their best to keep their train-set running without inconveniencing themselves. Sadly, it's the passengers who get pushed around in this situation.

My classic example of this is their shuffling of passengers between Gatwick Expresses at Victoria as each was progressively cancelled due to a problem down the line. It never occurred to them to keep the passengers on the same physical train and swap drivers and do a bit of paperwork in the office to change the physical train/scheduled departure mapping. When I pointed this insanity out at one of their "Meet the Managers" sessions, they seemed unable to grasp the crux of the matter - which was that they needlessly upset hundreds of passengers by shuffling them between trains three times. In their minds, they'd dealt with the situation successfully - all the drivers and rolling stock were still allocated as planned!!!

So you can have as many of them as you like dealing with a situation - but unless they start to think from the passengers perspective, they'll still appear incompetent.

 

[JB25]

Are you referring specifically to a GatEx train or Southern?

 

[talldave]

Gatwick Expresses. But managed by the same people, of course.

 

[JB25]

I think I get what you mean. I initially thought you meant sticking a Southern driver on the GatEx train.

 

[talldave]

No, it was a case of "we've cancelled this train, so let's ask a couple of hundred passengers to get off the train on platform 14 and into an identical train on platform 13". Fifteen minutes later, it's a case of "we've cancelled this train, so let's ask several hundred passengers to get off the train on platform 13 and back onto the train on platform 14 that most of them got off a few minutes ago".

And, of course, you'd never guess what happened next.... !! Incompetence at its best.

 

[JB25]

I heard earlier from a "source" that... "They would be very surprised if Southern (Govia) didn't win the Franchise."

 

[Manchester77]

I heard earlier from a "source" that... "They would be very surprised if Southern (Govia) didn't win the Franchise."

When does the winner get announced, can't be far off can it?

While I don't question your source after the ICWC cock up I'd be surprised if anything like that has leaked as the DafT would want to keep everything quiet

 

[JB25]

When does the winner get announced, can't be far off can it?

While I don't question your source after the ICWC cock up I'd be surprised if anything like that has leaked as the DafT would want to keep everything quiet

Whilst you are probably right, and I don't know the ins and outs etc I am sure somewhere down the line it can be easy to at least get hints.

The winning bidder is due to be announced in May 2014. I'm actually looking forward to finding out who's won, and also what Livery gas been thought up for it. I imagine whichever Franchise wins won't stray too far from their current ones though... Govia (Green), First (Purple/Navy), Stagecoach (Blue, Red, Yellow), MTR (White/Orange), Abellio (not a clue?).

 

[Manchester77]

Whilst you are probably right, and I don't know the ins and outs etc I am sure somewhere down the line it can be easy to at least get hints.

The winning bidder is due to be announced in May 2014. I'm actually looking forward to finding out who's won, and also what Livery gas been thought up for it. I imagine whichever Franchise wins won't stray too far from their current ones though... Govia (Green), First (Purple/Navy), Stagecoach (Blue, Red, Yellow), MTR (White/Orange), Abellio (not a clue?).

The bids are supposed to be anonymous until the team has selected their preferred bid and then the company whose bid was chosen is released.

Thanks I knew we were approaching it but wasn't too sure when
Same I hope if GoVia win they'll keep the southern brand so that there is some individuality. If first win then it's likely the entire network will be dynamic lined unless the rumoured new livery ever shows it's head. Stagecoach will probably take the approach they have with SWT and colour the different parts of the franchise in specific liveries. I don't really know about the other bidders, MTRs white and orange on LO was prescribed by TfL so we don't know what their colours will be.

 

[Saint66]

I thought the DFT had already set out the livery for the new franchise? The one that's been put on one or two GN trains?

 

[Manchester77]

I thought the DFT had already set out the livery for the new franchise? The one that's been put on one or two GN trains?

The bidders can chose to use the generic livery or use there own, it's detailed in the ITT.

 

[Class377/5]

The bidders can chose to use the generic livery or use there own, it's detailed in the ITT.

At their own cost. Remember that unlike most other franchises TSGN is management contract so choosing your branding will hit the limited money you can receive.

The would be surprised comment is just that. Comments like that have been floating around since before the bids went in so until its officially annoyed its still an unknown.

Of course the last tumor was two companies were neck and neck well ahead of the rest.

 

[Saint66]

The bidders can chose to use the generic livery or use there own, it's detailed in the ITT.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Well, that just makes painting the couple of GN trains look a bit silly at the moment!

 

[JB25]

At their own cost. Remember that unlike most other franchises TSGN is management contract so choosing your branding will hit the limited money you can receive.

The would be surprised comment is just that. Comments like that have been floating around since before the bids went in so until its officially annoyed its still an unknown.

Of course the last tumor was two companies were neck and neck well ahead of the rest.

I would hope the winner picks their own livery... The generic one is so dull.

If that rumour is true I can't really see past the two being Southern or First, but I could be wrong.

 

[samuelmorris]

Is there anything specifying regulations re: difference in livery between the different areas of the franchise? i.e. Southern vs. GN vs. Thameslink having slight (or maybe not so slight) differences in livery...

I'm thinking for example if Southern take it over they could potentially use the existing green livery for the services they already operate but use something else for the other areas, but along the same style - perhaps a different colour...

 

[jon0844]

I would hope the winner picks their own livery... The generic one is so dull.

If that rumour is true I can't really see past the two being Southern or First, but I could be wrong.

It's not so bad in the flesh. Although I've only seen the 700 and re-liveried 365 when clean!

I like the current FCC livery, but ultimately a train is a train and if it has the new 'generic' livery then it's not really an issue.

 

[transmanche]

Is there anything specifying regulations re: difference in livery between the different areas of the franchise? i.e. Southern vs. GN vs. Thameslink having slight (or maybe not so slight) differences in livery...

I'm thinking for example if Southern take it over they could potentially use the existing green livery for the services they already operate but use something else for the other areas, but along the same style - perhaps a different colour...

I suspect that something like that will happen.

SWT uses three different variants of the same livery, to distinguish different types of services. The TSGN franchise will naturally have four different service groups (Thameslink, Great Northern, Southern and Gatwick Express), so it would seem logical to to do something similar.

 

[jon0844]

I wonder if a TOC will go for different colours, ala SWT, or just applying different logos - similar to AGA, although the 379s are of course branded for both normal and Stansted services.

Hopefully the displays on the 700s won't break like the crappy system put on the 317s, and people will be able to see what train it is from the front/side - which is a safer way to identify the train than the livery, given trains could get swapped around.

 

[fgwrich]

At their own cost. Remember that unlike most other franchises TSGN is management contract so choosing your branding will hit the limited money you can receive.

The would be surprised comment is just that. Comments like that have been floating around since before the bids went in so until its officially annoyed its still an unknown.

Of course the last tumor was two companies were neck and neck well ahead of the rest.

Well, some people may be annoyed at whoever's chosen to run the franchise. I saw the 365 in Kings Cross the other day and whilst it doesn't look too bad on the outside, I have to admit I'm still not as keen on the NSE style interior.

 

[DJL]

Is it not likely that all units of the same class will be in the same livery - whoever gets it?

Why make diagramming more complex than it needs to be?

Although of course the 8 car units could have a different livery to the 1 car ones. Actually this could be handy if you're not sure how long your train will be (and like me you don't trust the PIS) if you can see from the colour when it arrives, giving you a few more seconds to get into the optimum position.

 

[LBSCR Times]

I'm thinking for example if Southern take it over they could potentially use the existing green livery for the services they already operate but use something else for the other areas, but along the same style - perhaps a different colour...

A popular misconception, it is the parent company, Go-Ahead, that is bidding for the franchise. Therefore on Day 1, it will be a separate company to Southern, until they merge a year later.

 

[JB25]

A popular misconception, it is the parent company, Go-Ahead, that is bidding for the franchise. Therefore on Day 1, it will be a separate company to Southern, until they merge a year later.

It is... But it is in effect the Southern branch of Govia. I think the Southern routes will stay green, Thameslink will go blue and Great Northern red maybe?

How long is this Franchise due to last?

 

[LBSCR Times]

How long is this Franchise due to last?

September 2020, with a 2 year extension option.

 

[Class377/5]

Is it not likely that all units of the same class will be in the same livery - whoever gets it?

Why make diagramming more complex than it needs to be?

Although of course the 8 car units could have a different livery to the 1 car ones. Actually this could be handy if you're not sure how long your train will be (and like me you don't trust the PIS) if you can see from the colour when it arrives, giving you a few more seconds to get into the optimum position.

The diagramming wont be made more complex if there is say four types of livery. Its would be quite natural to have say ex Southern routes in green, Thameslink in blue, GN in purple and Gatwick Express in red. The four types of stock currently run different diagrams anyway (apart from Gatwick Express but they already in two different liveries so my point stands).

You cant colour code trains as lengthens as attaching and joining will throw this out. A 377 for example can be 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12 cars. That's without mentions it fails disability tests as some will see colours the same (why doors have to be such a different colour).

 

[JB25]

The diagramming wont be made more complex if there is say four types of livery. Its would be quite natural to have say ex Southern routes in green, Thameslink in blue, GN in purple and Gatwick Express in red. The four types of stock currently run different diagrams anyway (apart from Gatwick Express but they already in two different liveries so my point stands).

You cant colour code trains as lengthens as attaching and joining will throw this out. A 377 for example can be 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12 cars. That's without mentions it fails disability tests as some will see colours the same (why doors have to be such a different colour).

You forgot 5 & 6!