Thameslink Southern & Great Northern Franchise

[jon0844]

I use FCC and think that on the GN side, they've done a good job. They've helped sort out the timetable, secured new rolling stock, done a good job refurbishing trains and stations and lots more things that may fall below the radar or most travellers.

Even the new PIS which had many flaws appears to work quite well now, and the latest changes for disruption must help even more. Just today looking at the major disruption on the ECML around Alexandra Palace and New Barnet shows how good their Twitter service is, as well as organising disruption plans that are pretty robust (and they even produce leaflets to give people a wealth of options to help prepare people).

Trains are usually clean (and I've witnessed them being inspected regularly) and kept clean at King's Cross by staff that seem quite keen - although that doesn't mean they're always clean by midnight, due to the actions of passengers.

I bet people on the TL side have a totally different story to tell, but I always consider it important to remember what's down to the TOC and what's down to others - like Network Rail.

Due to the fact that this is a merging of franchises, being an incumbent operator doesn't help as one of the current operators has to lose!

On the upside, a lot of the good service is probably down to staff on the ground who will remain no matter what. Another thing that a lot of the moaners on Twitter probably forget when they talk about sacking an operator and their useless staff!

 

[SF-02]

It was those services moving to FCC's stock (and the loss of services via Redhill to Southern) that enabled Southeastern to withdraw their 508s a while back.

Ah right. Seems misguided to have withdrawn the 508s around 2008/9 shortly after they were refurbished and replaced with 465/6, which could have been used to strengthen peak London metro services such as the horribly overcrowded 4 coach peak Victoria to Dartford. Especially as around 2010 southeastern stock moved onto an ongoing (and still not finished) program of train refreshes and mechanical overhauls causing some pretty severe stock shortages over that time.
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My preference would be for GoVia. It was disappointing when GoVia lost the old Thameslink franchise for the combined TL and Great Northern franchise to FCC.

My only concern is that both Southern's discounted tickets, advance singles. Daysave's along with FCC's Super Off-Peak's will be scrapped. The current competition along the Brighton route has made for some great bargains to be made on journeys.

Yes I'm worried the discounted fares to coastal resorts and London will end which have been fantastic. Govia's sister franchise southeastern offer no offers of note to the coast and never have. South West trains do have some great deals though.

 

[JonathanH]

Ah right. Seems misguided to have withdrawn the 508s around 2008/9 shortly after they were refurbished and replaced with 465/6, which could have been used to strengthen peak London metro services such as the horribly overcrowded 4 coach peak Victoria to Dartford. Especially as around 2010 southeastern stock moved onto an ongoing (and still not finished) program of train refreshes and mechanical overhauls causing some pretty severe stock shortages over that time.
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Yes I'm worried the discounted fares to coastal resorts and London will end which have been fantastic. Govia's sister franchise southeastern offer no offers of note to the coast and never have. South West trains do have some great deals though.

What great deals do South West Trains have other than advance fares from London to destinations beyond Southampton and Salisbury and some patchy megabus availability? Southeastern have from time to time offered discounts on off peak day returns and offer a three day Kent Rover which is better than nothing. Southeastern still have super off peak fares from the coast to named London Terminals that are pretty keenly priced.

As has been suggested above (and I've noted in previous threads) it would appear that the combining of the Southern and Thameslink franchises will remove the effective competition that has made it possible for Southern to offer cheap fares.

 

[Bald Rick]

There's still a week to go in the bidding, and all the bidders are quite rightly keeping their bids completely secret. So any suggestion of who might be submitting a strong bid (or otherwise) is complete speculation. Who knows whether the owning group Board(s) really want to win this one?

 

[Eagle]

What great deals do South West Trains have other than advance fares from London to destinations beyond Southampton and Salisbury and some patchy megabus availability?

There's also Rainbow Days (which are like LM's Great Escape except you have to start at a specific station), although those are really far and few between for what they are.

 

[Saint66]

It will be very interesting to see how the bidding process goes. My local station is St Albans City, so as a result, use Thameslink the most, and generally, I don't have too much of an issue with them (FCC). But in St Albans, FCC have an awful reputation, with many commuters often calling for our local MP to get involved and a lot will be happy to see FCC go if they don't secure a new contract.

 

[SF-02]

What great deals do South West Trains have other than advance fares from London to destinations beyond Southampton and Salisbury and some patchy megabus availability? Southeastern have from time to time offered discounts on off peak day returns and offer a three day Kent Rover which is better than nothing. Southeastern still have super off peak fares from the coast to named London Terminals that are pretty keenly priced.

As has been suggested above (and I've noted in previous threads) it would appear that the combining of the Southern and Thameslink franchises will remove the effective competition that has made it possible for Southern to offer cheap fares.

The megabus SWT deals. They are fantastic value and offer journeys for £1 to the coast from London. I've used them often to get to Bournemouth, Weymouth, Poole and Postsmouth. I think they also have £1 trips to Southampton. I have got £6 fares just a couple of days before and a few £1 trips which obviously require a bit more forward planning. There's quite a few times each day.

I've just looked at southeasterns prices to compare and a Monday in early January off peak from London to Margate and its £32 return. No advance deals and they've never offered them. Their 25% off promo is nowhere near the value of other franchise deals. Poor compared to £1 or £6 with SWT through megabus and £5 southern to the Sussex coast. In addition Greater Anglia have started offering £6 advances to Cambridge & Norwich (not sure about deals to the coast or much about that part of the world). I've just remembered that SE did have a £10 day return to Margate for the first time recently but it was extremely limited. As a whole their offers are far behind other TOCs, not just to the coast but major tourist towns like Canterbury.

I agreed in my last post that the combining of franchises may result in the loss of deals on southern/thameslink and push them up to SE prices.

 

[jon0844]

It will be very interesting to see how the bidding process goes. My local station is St Albans City, so as a result, use Thameslink the most, and generally, I don't have too much of an issue with them (FCC). But in St Albans, FCC have an awful reputation, with many commuters often calling for our local MP to get involved and a lot will be happy to see FCC go if they don't secure a new contract.

I wonder how many of them realise they'll still see the same people after the franchise change? Yes, management will change, but in the case of this franchise - there are many clear rules on what must be done, and so any operator will be fairly limited.

I'm sure if FCC could have secured more trains it would have been able to run longer trains more of the time, and also continue the refresh programme by having some spare stock to take out of service. But it couldn't (and even Bombardier managed to be late on delivering the 377s to help people out sooner). Add in the fact that since it took over in 2006 it has been operating through one big building site in London, it was always going to struggle.

 

[Bald Rick]

It will be very interesting to see how the bidding process goes. My local station is St Albans City, so as a result, use Thameslink the most, and generally, I don't have too much of an issue with them (FCC). But in St Albans, FCC have an awful reputation, with many commuters often calling for our local MP to get involved and a lot will be happy to see FCC go if they don't secure a new contract.

To be fair to FCC, the commuters of St Albans would despise the operator whoever ran it. They did with GoVia, they did with BR, and they will with whoever wins TSGN.

The MP tried to get involved once, but then realised a) it was a hiding to nothing and b) she lives in Beaconsfield anyway.

(Disclaimer: I am an Albanista myself)

 

[Saint66]

I also think that another problem is that St Albans commuters instantly blame FCC for any Network Rail issues, especially the overhead line incidents which have occurred over the past year, when in reality, there isn't much FCC can do about this.

 

[Skimble19]

My preference would be for GoVia. It was disappointing when GoVia lost the old Thameslink franchise for the combined TL and Great Northern franchise to FCC.

Most people I speak to on the TL side would disagree with you there.. heard plenty of people saying anyone but GoVia after last time!!

Guess it just depends who you ask.. Personally, I'd like First to keep it.

 

[jon0844]

When the line was split during the core work in 2004/5, I seem to recall a lot of people thinking the service was actually vastly improved (in terms of reliability at either end) - and that might have well been why a lot of people saw the outgoing operator in a better light at the end, and FCC as a disaster because all of the big project work (and all the fun and games) was just about to begin.

Once we have the ECML linked up, I fear we're going to have even bigger problems during disruption so whoever runs it from 2018 onwards will also have a tough ride.

 

[JB25]

Any news in the Franchise lately?

I haven't really heard anything new lately, I was asked by a friend if it was true Govia had pulled out and it was a three horse race between First, MTR and DB, but that can only be rumour as DB weren't even invited to bid for it were then? hock:

 

[Bishopstone]

I'd like the franchise to go to a business with deep pockets, prepared to invest for growth rather than making their profit from pared costs alone.

So not First, then.

Govia or Stagecoach would be fine by me. Trying to make Thameslink 2018 work will be a poisoned chalice for whoever wins, with those comical plans to run vast numbers of trains through the core, and an absence of alternative reversing points when it goes belly-up twice a week.

 

[Bald Rick]

Trying to make Thameslink 2018 work will be a poisoned chalice for whoever wins, with those comical plans to run vast numbers of trains through the core, and an absence of alternative reversing points when it goes belly-up twice a week.

That will be the same 'vast number' that runs up the GEML fast lines every hour with no reversing points. Unlike the Thameslink turnback points of Kentish Town, St Pancras HL, Finsbury Park, Kings Cross, Canal tunnels, Smithfield sidings, Blackfriars bays, Elephant & Castle, London Bridge (new platforms 4&5), Victoria East side, and now I will stop. (All of which are in the draft 2018 contingency plan).

 

[mister-sparky]

That will be the same 'vast number' that runs up the GEML fast lines every hour with no reversing points. Unlike the Thameslink turnback points of Kentish Town, St Pancras HL, Finsbury Park, Kings Cross, Canal tunnels, Smithfield sidings, Blackfriars bays, Elephant & Castle, London Bridge (new platforms 4&5), Victoria East side, and now I will stop. (All of which are in the draft 2018 contingency plan).

But the Thameslink route does screw up at least twice a week. Whereas the GEML doesn't because it's just one line. Thameslink screws up because of the vast number of lines and junctions with other routes it has to operate over.

 

[Bald Rick]

But the Thameslink route does screw up at least twice a week. Whereas the GEML doesn't because it's just one line. Thameslink screws up because of the vast number of lines and junctions with other routes it has to operate over.

I must have missed the twice weekly screw ups in my last 10 years of commuting it.

 

[DelayRepay]

I must have missed the twice weekly screw ups in my last 10 years of commuting it.

I agree - I've been using Thameslink for two years, not ten, but certainly haven't experienced twice weekly screw ups. I know FCC have a terrible reputation in St Albans but actually I don't think they're too bad. Most of the big problems in recent months have been caused by either trespassers or by infrastructure problems, neither of which are within FCC's control.

FCC's stock is in a dire state but whoever was running the line would be using the same stock.

The number of times I've been delayed due to something within FCC's control, I can count on one hand. Occasional shortage of train crew or failed train. But then the delays are relatively short, certainly not major screw ups.

The last few times we've had major disruption, they seem to have done a good job of sourcing alternative transport and directing passengers via the GN line.

I'm not singing their praises or even sticking up for them - but they don't deserve some of the stick they get in the local press. I used to commute via South Eastern and had exactly the same amount of disruption then. There is hardly a day goes by when my colleague doesn't come into the office cursing and swearing about London Midland.

I think they've done a decent job with the hand they were dealt, and I wouldn't want to see them lose the franchise. After all, they've got years of experience of running it now so I would suggest are more likely to understand the problems the route has than a new operator.

 

[swt_passenger]

...After all, they've got years of experience of running it now so I would suggest are more likely to understand the problems the route has than a new operator.

The people who actually operate and manage the service on a day to day basis don't change with a new franchise, they all get TUPE'd across to the new one...

 

[samuelmorris]

But the Thameslink route does screw up at least twice a week. Whereas the GEML doesn't because it's just one line. Thameslink screws up because of the vast number of lines and junctions with other routes it has to operate over.

Now there's something interesting. The GEML is one of the most often-criticised routes on here for delays isn't it?

 

[A-driver]

I must have missed the twice weekly screw ups in my last 10 years of commuting it.

To be fair, add the GN into the mix and you easily get a twice weekly disruption. We havnt had a week on the GN without one day of fairly major disruption apeffecting either the morning or evening peak for a long, long time.

 

[jon0844]

Yeah, as the various text alerts I get keep showing.. Flooding issues yesterday morning, overhead wire problems in the evening (peak).

However, I've been lucky to avoid nearly every incident for some months now. I suggest anyone wishing to travel might want to check what days I go into London!

 

[Class377/5]

The people who actually operate and manage the service on a day to day basis don't change with a new franchise, they all get TUPE'd across to the new one...

Not this time. We are being thinned out with the merging with two companies in 2015. The whole reason to merge Thameslink and Southern was to reducing headcounts including in the control with 1-3 job losses per role per shift being the figure mentioned by the Jacobs report.

 

[jon0844]

What do the various unions have to say about that?

 

[Minstral25]

Not this time. We are being thinned out with the merging with two companies in 2015. The whole reason to merge Thameslink and Southern was to reducing headcounts including in the control with 1-3 job losses per role per shift being the figure mentioned by the Jacobs report.

They need more people in Control now. It all falls apart whenever there is a problem and takes ages to get back. I think passengers would appreciate more people in control making decisions to help them get to work or home or just get to their day out.

 

[grid56126]

Not this time. We are being thinned out with the merging with two companies in 2015. The whole reason to merge Thameslink and Southern was to reducing headcounts including in the control with 1-3 job losses per role per shift being the figure mentioned by the Jacobs report.

"The whole reason to merge Thameslink and Southern was to reducing headcounts" That is a fairly drastic reason to merge two major franchises. I would have suspected that there might be some more significant reasons myself, including through running to and from the GN route and a myriad of other new journey opportunities.

The Jacobs report states

"" Saving of 1 – 2 train planning staff and 1 – 2 posts in control equivalent to 3 – 6 staff for 24 hour cover. Staff Costs saving £185k - £370k pa ""

This is on page 61. If it were to be 1 - 3 per role the saving would be somewhat higher.

 

[Class377/5]

"The whole reason to merge Thameslink and Southern was to reducing headcounts" That is a fairly drastic reason to merge two major franchises. I would have suspected that there might be some more significant reasons myself, including through running to and from the GN route and a myriad of other new journey opportunities.

The Jacobs report states

"" Saving of 1 – 2 train planning staff and 1 – 2 posts in control equivalent to 3 – 6 staff for 24 hour cover. Staff Costs saving £185k - £370k pa ""

This is on page 61. If it were to be 1 - 3 per role the saving would be somewhat higher.

Not when you rearrange all the roles so your only looking at the end result not the changes to get there which are far more wide spread.

What do the various unions have to say about that?

Most are managers so unions don't give a crap. Especially as not drivers nor Tubes staff.

 

[Bald Rick]

What do the various unions have to say about that?

They're a bit busy with Boris at present

 

[swt_passenger]

Not this time. We are being thinned out with the merging with two companies in 2015. The whole reason to merge Thameslink and Southern was to reducing headcounts including in the control with 1-3 job losses per role per shift being the figure mentioned by the Jacobs report.

That's a separate issue. The nucleus of the remaining team is still going to consist of people who are currently doing it for SN and FCC. They aren't going to be brand new people on the first day of the new franchise.

 

[Class377/5]

That's a separate issue. The nucleus of the remaining team is still going to consist of people who are currently doing it for SN and FCC. They aren't going to be brand new people on the first day of the new franchise.

No but then again first day of the franchise Southern could still be a separate company.

When Southern control merges with Thameslink there are job losses expected with the control. Doesn't require new people only less.