HS2 and capacity on classic lines - Spectator Debate

[NotATrainspott]

Unfortunately the cost of building HS2 and re-opening more local/middle distance lines would be too much of an hurdle for our government. I know they are planning on re-opening the east-west line, but that is just a tempter.

If they were given that choice, they would always choose HS2 or something similar, primarily because they are not interested in serving the majority of peoples needs, in the regions, they are more interested in serving themselves an their business friends, now that MP's expenses come under more scrutiny they are having a difficult time of fiddling the figures with second homes, and they don't like "mixing" it with normal working class people on busy trains for a long journey, so now they want a faster, more exclusive train where they don't have to share first class when the train is packed, why do you think this extremely expensive project got through parliament?, why they all support it and why they have turned down all the objections.

They will not be concerned with how much a ticket costs, because they can claim it all back in their expenses, and use the taxpayers money to build it !, most of the tax of course being paid by working class people.

Most of the passengers these trains will be taking off the WCML/MML/ECML will be MP's, business executives and their friends, so it will not benefit the rest of the railway network much, though they will always claim otherwise.

And how difficult is it to re-open local lines ? Can't be that hard, The Scottish Parliament seems to be able to mange and with less money than our government !!

Oh dear. No other immediate transport scheme could currently deliver as much overall benefit for the country as HS2. Governments have limited resources to use to deliver as much good as they can and HS2 is two governments made up of all three political parties doing the best they can do - remember that HS2 was supported by all three parties in 2010 and was already very much in the planning stages in the waning years of the Brown government.

As funding for road schemes dries up (again, the wonderful law of diminishing returns is at work here as well) unless the government wants to reduce overall capital spending they have to spend money on something. Local and regional rail services are ripe for this money being spent upon them. No matter which way the referendum goes what won't happen is more centralisation of spending priorities, so whatever constitutional framework results from it there should be more ability for the English regions to do a Scottish Parliament and actually reopen things.

When you devolve into conspiracy theory it merely devalues your very reasonable points about the need for local and regional connectivity on the rail network. If HS2 were a Concorde project it wouldn't have 18 trains an hour each way carrying 1100 seated passengers each. There are simply not enough rich people in the UK to fill even an hour's worth of capacity on the line. The additional operational cost of running a full train on HS2 pale in insignificance compared to the additional revenue even filling another carriage's worth of seats would bring. In reality, the situation on HS2 will in fact be far more egalitarian than what it is currently. One point on an extremely simplistic level is that the captive HS2 trains are wider but not wide enough to fit in 2-3 seating across, so there will be more space available for passengers compared to anything possible on the classic network.

 

[Bright Boy]

Reasonable or unreasonable my argument might seem, and I know that what I have said will have ruffled a few feathers, and I know it might seem a bit far fetched to some, but I have seen too many things and experienced too much to know there will be some truth in what I say.

However everyone has their point of view and ideas about what is and what isn't, and that is a good thing, without that we would not get a balanced view.

But if this High Speed line is for everyone, who else will travel on it ?, can anyone tell me that, if it is costed at the same rate as the regular railways, then everyone could travel on it, but I don't believe that will be the case.

I believe that it will become a "white elephant", we (the taxpayers) will pay for it being built, pay the extra when the cost rises astronomically and when it fails to deliver the revenue needed to sustain it we will subsidise it.

However on the bright side, DRS and GBRf (or whoever takes them over) will have many free fast freight paths to the south and Europe.

P.s. Scotland has not proposed a High speed line to the south or Europe, only local lines to be re-opened, why not ?

 

[Deerfold]

P.s. Scotland has not proposed a High speed line to the south or Europe, only local lines to be re-opened, why not ?

It appears they're keen to be on HS2 to London, but they're not prepared to commit to building their bit until they're sure there'll be something to link it to.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/scottish-independence-no-commitment-to-hs2-1-3294978

I'm not quite sure where you think Scotland could send a High Speed line to Europe without working with England?

 

[Bright Boy]

It appears they're keen to be on HS2 to London, but they're not prepared to commit to building their bit until they're sure there'll be something to link it to.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/scottish-independence-no-commitment-to-hs2-1-3294978

I'm not quite sure where you think Scotland could send a High Speed line to Europe without working with England?

I just said they have not proposed one, if they want to use the tunnel then of course they need to go through England, but in my view, the Scottish Parliament seem to like to go it themselves, they don't seem to want what England wants?, Scotland has its own ideas what it wants.
They want to be independent.

But I don't remember the Scottish Parliament applying for an HS3 or 4, all those plans seem to come from this side of Hadrians Wall, but I could be mistaken.

 

[transmanche]

But I don't remember the Scottish Parliament applying for an HS3 or 4, all those plans seem to come from this side of Hadrians Wall, but I could be mistaken.

*cough* there's still a fair bit of England that's north of Hadrian's Wall...!

 

[Deerfold]

But I don't remember the Scottish Parliament applying for an HS3 or 4, all those plans seem to come from this side of Hadrians Wall, but I could be mistaken.

Well there's nothing gone through Parliament yet but the same link I provided mentions they're planning a high speed link between Edinburgh and Glasgow with the hope it will link into HS2.

As it's not currently known which side of the country HS2 may go up to link to Scotland and it's going to be 30 years off it's tricky for Scotland to plan to meet it just yet.

HS2 is still going through - I'd expect that to be well under way before we hear anything about HS3 or 4 in any part of the UK.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Reasonable or unreasonable my argument might seem, and I know that what I have said will have ruffled a few feathers, and I know it might seem a bit far fetched to some, but I have seen too many things and experienced too much to know there will be some truth in what I say.

However everyone has their point of view and ideas about what is and what isn't, and that is a good thing, without that we would not get a balanced view.

But if this High Speed line is for everyone, who else will travel on it ?, can anyone tell me that, if it is costed at the same rate as the regular railways, then everyone could travel on it, but I don't believe that will be the case.

I believe that it will become a "white elephant", we (the taxpayers) will pay for it being built, pay the extra when the cost rises astronomically and when it fails to deliver the revenue needed to sustain it we will subsidise it.

However on the bright side, DRS and GBRf (or whoever takes them over) will have many free fast freight paths to the south and Europe.

P.s. Scotland has not proposed a High speed line to the south or Europe, only local lines to be re-opened, why not ?

If HS2 is costed the same as the regular railways for comparable journeys today then people will travel on it either through choice or without having much of a choice anyway. If you live in Manchester and you have a choice of a two-and-a-bit hour journey on the classic lines or a one-and-a-bit hour journey on the much more comfortable HS2 for the same price there really isn't a vast amount of logic in choosing the former. Any passengers from further north than Wigan or York won't have much of a choice as their current fast services will switch from the WCML to HS2. There will likely still be some slower services but the time differential will grow even larger as the WCML services will now stop far more often than they do today, leading to HS2 being even more attractive. This is one of the most fundamental reasons why the new north/south line is best being built fast: if it isn't fast, it isn't any faster than the existing line so there won't be very many people using it. A new slow intercity line has a much greater possibility of becoming a white elephant than a new fast one for this reason.

You don't seem to realise that the Scottish Parliament only has jurisdiction over Scotland and couldn't try to build a line in England even if it wanted to. Seeing as how that isn't really a controversial thing, since England does in fact have a Parliament with the legal authority to construct new rail lines, I don't exactly see why that even needed to be brought up. Until the plans for HS2 Phase 3 are properly confirmed in the public domain (although the DfT has shown more interest in running to Scotland via the west rather than via Newcastle) the Scottish Government are really not able to do much more than to wait. The E&G line is a subcomponent of the whole HS2 plan rather than something which stands massively on its own merits.

 

[Bright Boy]

If HS2 is costed the same as the regular railways for comparable journeys today then people will travel on it either through choice or without having much of a choice anyway. If you live in Manchester and you have a choice of a two-and-a-bit hour journey on the classic lines or a one-and-a-bit hour journey on the much more comfortable HS2 for the same price there really isn't a vast amount of logic in choosing the former. Any passengers from further north than Wigan or York won't have much of a choice as their current fast services will switch from the WCML to HS2. There will likely still be some slower services but the time differential will grow even larger as the WCML services will now stop far more often than they do today, leading to HS2 being even more attractive. This is one of the most fundamental reasons why the new north/south line is best being built fast: if it isn't fast, it isn't any faster than the existing line so there won't be very many people using it. A new slow intercity line has a much greater possibility of becoming a white elephant than a new fast one for this reason.

You don't seem to realise that the Scottish Parliament only has jurisdiction over Scotland and couldn't try to build a line in England even if it wanted to. Seeing as how that isn't really a controversial thing, since England does in fact have a Parliament with the legal authority to construct new rail lines, I don't exactly see why that even needed to be brought up. Until the plans for HS2 Phase 3 are properly confirmed in the public domain (although the DfT has shown more interest in running to Scotland via the west rather than via Newcastle) the Scottish Government are really not able to do much more than to wait. The E&G line is a subcomponent of the whole HS2 plan rather than something which stands massively on its own merits.

If or when HS2 is opened, will it be the same operator as the WCML ?, I doubt it, just as I doubt the price will be the same, so (assuming Virgin is still the operator) Virgin will compete with HS2, it might not be able to go faster, but it will be cheaper and possibly as comfortable if some people are transferring to HS2 and by then Virgin will have new trains, so people from Wigan or north thereof will have a better choice, and not be forced into paying more to travel to HS2, many people will not want to pay a lot more money just to save a 3rd off the time, and that's only from Manchester, if someone is travelling from Glasgow, they will be only saving about 15% off the travel time.

HS2 from Manchester will have to compete with Virgin (or whoever is the WCML operator), the airlines and the coaches, the airlines being the nearest in type, at present they charge around £100 for a trip to London, they will be faster, even with the transfer from Heathrow for example, will HS2 compete with that for price?, seeing as Virgin charge about £160 anytime and £78 off peak, HS2 will be more expensive than that! (you can get a bargain advance, but then you may as well get the coach for about £10-15rtn), how is HS2 going to get the vast majority (2nd class) of travellers onto their trains?

Nobody has yet to answer my question of who else will be going on HS2, I wonder why not?

I live near Manchester, if I want to travel to London, and I do once or twice a year, either I get a Virgin advance or rent a car (I don't have a car at present) I have considered getting the coach, but I would be very bored. I would not spend the amount it costs for a regular ticket on the train just to save about 1 hour in travel time. So why would I pay maybe around £70-100 more than that (estimate) to save another 40-50 minutes !

What would you expect the price will be on HS2 in todays money ? and Would anyone on here pay that on a regular basis?

 

[transmanche]

HS2 from Manchester will have to compete with Virgin (or whoever is the WCML operator), the airlines and the coaches, the airlines being the nearest in type, at present they charge around £100 for a trip to London, they will be faster, even with the transfer from Heathrow for example, will HS2 compete with that for price?, seeing as Virgin charge about £160 anytime and £78 off peak, HS2 will be more expensive than that! (you can get a bargain advance, but then you may as well get the coach for about £10-15rtn), how is HS2 going to get the vast majority (2nd class) of travellers onto their trains?

I'd be surprised if air beats train on door-to-door Manchester-London timings at the moment - being as the train is faster than air on door-to-door Newcastle-London journeys at the moment. So most likely the only people who fly between Manchester and London are those who are a) connecting to/from an international flight or b) are a bit daft.

At the moment, on the railways, passenger capacity is a major constraint. The TOCs use demand management techniques to, er, manage demand. This makes peak-time fares artificially high in order to suppress demand. When HS2 arrives, this will provide a lot more capacity. If there's more supply than demand, prices should fall. In addition the operators of HS2 and ICWC will compete against each other; naturally ICWC will have to undercut HS2 on price in order to make their (relatively) slower services more attractive. (In the same manner as you currently see competition between three TOCs in the London-Birmingham market.)

 

[joeykins82]

HS2 services aren't going to compete with the VT (ICWC) services in their current form, they're going to replace them. There'll be a handful of regional express services between London and Manchester along the classic WCML, but HS2 will end up being like the Victoria line: if one of your route options includes it, it's almost certainly going to be both faster and more frequent than the alternatives.

I doubt that the flexible off-peak fares will drop but they shouldn't increase. It's quite possible that the anytime fares will drop because of the step-change in capacity provision, but even if it doesn't the TOC will be able to sell cheap advance fares even during the morning peak. The evening peak restrictions out of Euston will hopefully be abolished as they were only introduced to manage demand across the available capacity.

You're assuming that there's going to be an HS2 franchise above the ICWC franchise in its current form (which in turn sits above the WM franchise). HS2 is going to result in the current ICWC and WM franchises and service patterns being completely redesigned. My guess is that the post-HS2 WM franchise will lose all of its Euston services, there'll be an IC-HS2 franchise that operates all services that use the line, some services will transfer to Crossrail and what's left going in to Euston will be 110/125mph outer-suburban/regional express services that'll be run by someone else, but whose key markets will be MKC/Coventry etc.

 

[Bright Boy]

I'd be surprised if air beats train on door-to-door Manchester-London timings at the moment - being as the train is faster than air on door-to-door Newcastle-London journeys at the moment. So most likely the only people who fly between Manchester and London are those who are a) connecting to/from an international flight or b) are a bit daft.

At the moment, on the railways, passenger capacity is a major constraint. The TOCs use demand management techniques to, er, manage demand. This makes peak-time fares artificially high in order to suppress demand. When HS2 arrives, this will provide a lot more capacity. If there's more supply than demand, prices should fall. In addition the operators of HS2 and ICWC will compete against each other; naturally ICWC will have to undercut HS2 on price in order to make their (relatively) slower services more attractive. (In the same manner as you currently see competition between three TOCs in the London-Birmingham market.)

My wife travels to London by airline, she gets the bus to Manchester Airport, Plane to Heathrow, Train to Paddington, underground to destination, she reckons its quicker than bus or bus/tram to Manchester train to Euston, Underground to destination, easier and more comfortable, she sometimes gets the train when she can get cheap tickets, but usually she can't, not enough notice so she gets a flight.

Standard prices will only fall with competition, not for any other reason, advance ones might fall when you have 1/2 empty trains
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HS2 services aren't going to compete with the VT (ICWC) services in their current form, they're going to replace them. There'll be a handful of regional express services between London and Manchester along the classic WCML, but HS2 will end up being like the Victoria line: if one of your route options includes it, it's almost certainly going to be both faster and more frequent than the alternatives.

I doubt that the flexible off-peak fares will drop but they shouldn't increase. It's quite possible that the anytime fares will drop because of the step-change in capacity provision, but even if it doesn't the TOC will be able to sell cheap advance fares even during the morning peak. The evening peak restrictions out of Euston will hopefully be abolished as they were only introduced to manage demand across the available capacity.

You're assuming that there's going to be an HS2 franchise above the ICWC franchise in its current form (which in turn sits above the WM franchise). HS2 is going to result in the current ICWC and WM franchises and service patterns being completely redesigned. My guess is that the post-HS2 WM franchise will lose all of its Euston services, there'll be an IC-HS2 franchise that operates all services that use the line, some services will transfer to Crossrail and what's left going in to Euston will be 110/125mph outer-suburban/regional express services that'll be run by someone else, but whose key markets will be MKC/Coventry etc.

The Midland Railway and LNWR did not fall by the wayside when the GCR was opened, they competed, it was the new boy, the GCR that eventually fell but only later, not when the independent companies were in business, so why would the WCML become a regional line ??, I'm sure Richard Branson will have something to say about that (assuming Virgin still have the WCML franchise)

Maybe the current franchises will be re-organised but there will still be someone running express services from Scotland/North West/West Midlands to London, at the very least to cause competition, that's the nature of business, so for that very reason I don't think they will put WCML and HS2 under the same organisation.

 

[NotATrainspott]

The Midland Railway and LNWR did not fall by the wayside when the GCR was opened, they competed, it was the new boy, the GCR that eventually fell but only later, not when the independent companies were in business, so why would the WCML become a regional line ??, I'm sure Richard Branson will have something to say about that (assuming Virgin still have the WCML franchise)

Maybe the current franchises will be re-organised but there will still be someone running express services from Scotland/North West/West Midlands to London, at the very least to cause competition, that's the nature of business, so for that very reason I don't think they will put WCML and HS2 under the same organisation.

The bulk of the InterCity West Coast franchise's business will transfer to the HS2 operator when Phase 1 opens. When Phase 2 opens, the same will be true for InterCity East Coast and the intercity portion of the Midland franchise. This is not controversial. The franchises for the remaining services will be redesigned around HS2, so Richard Branson or whoever won't have a problem with ICWC being downgraded as they would then likely get the chance to be the HS2 franchisee/concessionaire. Especially if Crossrail were extended up the WCML, it would be likely that the remainder ICWC franchise would be combined with London Midland's WCML operations.

The whole point of HS2 is to give the current LDHS trains running on the north-south mainlines a dedicated track to do so faster, more efficiently and more reliably than they have today. The current non-stop Virgin/East Coast trains from beyond Wigan and York will be replaced more-or-less one-to-one with HS2 classic-compatible services. This is not new information; this is the whole point of the scheme and has been since the start of the project.

 

[Bright Boy]

If HS2 is costed the same as the regular railways for comparable journeys today then people will travel on it either through choice or without having much of a choice anyway. If you live in Manchester and you have a choice of a two-and-a-bit hour journey on the classic lines or a one-and-a-bit hour journey on the much more comfortable HS2 for the same price there really isn't a vast amount of logic in choosing the former. Any passengers from further north than Wigan or York won't have much of a choice as their current fast services will switch from the WCML to HS2. There will likely still be some slower services but the time differential will grow even larger as the WCML services will now stop far more often than they do today, leading to HS2 being even more attractive. This is one of the most fundamental reasons why the new north/south line is best being built fast: if it isn't fast, it isn't any faster than the existing line so there won't be very many people using it. A new slow intercity line has a much greater possibility of becoming a white elephant than a new fast one for this reason.

You don't seem to realise that the Scottish Parliament only has jurisdiction over Scotland and couldn't try to build a line in England even if it wanted to. Seeing as how that isn't really a controversial thing, since England does in fact have a Parliament with the legal authority to construct new rail lines, I don't exactly see why that even needed to be brought up. Until the plans for HS2 Phase 3 are properly confirmed in the public domain (although the DfT has shown more interest in running to Scotland via the west rather than via Newcastle) the Scottish Government are really not able to do much more than to wait. The E&G line is a subcomponent of the whole HS2 plan rather than something which stands massively on its own merits.

I brought up Scotland because they are proactive about opening up railway lines, but despite all the talk, ideas and planning about High speed lines in our country, they have not proposed any, they could have proposed them from Glasgow or Edinburgh to the border to meet one from the south when it gets there, they are now in the process of re-opening part of the Waverley route, they could have re-built it all to a high speed line, but they prefer to serve the wider community rather than waste good money, and the Scots are "canny", they would prefer for our (idi***) government to do that!

 

[jon0844]

Sarcasm, but will you be paying the extra cost for a ticket on HS2, or will you be mixing it with everyone else on the regular trains with a cheap ticket?

HS2 will be cheaper to run. Bigger trains, more seats, thus more likely to be less cost than on the old legacy services. At the very least you'll have cheap advance tickets in both standard and first.

Simple economics.

 

[Bright Boy]

If that is the point, there will be a lot of people very upset that they do not have a direct express to London !, if they have to change to an expensive train in Manchester. Carlisle, Penrith, Lancaster, Preston, Wigan, Newcastle, Darlington, Durham, York to name but a few, and that's just northern England, what about North Wales and Scotland!
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I agree that it will be cheaper to run but they will have a lot of outlay to recoup

 

[MidlandMainlie]

I brought up Scotland because they are proactive about opening up railway lines, but despite all the talk, ideas and planning about High speed lines in our country, they have not proposed any, they could have proposed them from Glasgow or Edinburgh to the border to meet one from the south when it gets there, they are now in the process of re-opening part of the Waverley route, they could have re-built it all to a high speed line, but they prefer to serve the wider community rather than waste good money, and the Scots are "canny", they would prefer for our (idi***) government to do that!

The Scottish government have been talking about a Glasgow -Edinburgh HSR for a couple of years now!

 

[Bright Boy]

The Scottish government have been talking about a Glasgow -Edinburgh HSR for a couple of years now!

Will they be building a totally new one or utilising current/old lines

 

[NotATrainspott]

I brought up Scotland because they are proactive about opening up railway lines, but despite all the talk, ideas and planning about High speed lines in our country, they have not proposed any, they could have proposed them from Glasgow or Edinburgh to the border to meet one from the south when it gets there, they are now in the process of re-opening part of the Waverley route, they could have re-built it all to a high speed line, but they prefer to serve the wider community rather than waste good money, and the Scots are "canny", they would prefer for our (idi***) government to do that!

Oh dear god.

There is quite literally no point in the Scottish Government designing their own HSR route until they at least know where, when and if the one from London would meet it. The benefit:cost ratio of what the Scottish Government have already announced an intention to develop is reasonable but the benefit:cost ratio of them building a new line to the English border, without any new line on the other side to connect to, is very low. London-Scotland HSR's benefits come from the massive modal share from air it would cause as well as the journey time, capacity and connectivity it would bring not only to Scotland but to England as well, especially the north where the air connections to Scotland are not as good and as such journey times on any mode are not fast. The most realistic option in my mind for the funding of a line is that the Scottish Government control the design of any route north of the border, within reasonable constraints, but the UK government would pay for all but the E&G section. Ending HS2 at Carlisle would be a nonsensical option regardless of the outcome of the referendum.
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Will they be building a totally ne one or utilising current/old lines

New line over empty countryside built to HS2 gauge and standard but then connecting back into existing lines for the journey to the city centres. There is no point in upgrading the existing lines past 160km/h as they were only built to be two-track and they are effectively commuter lines of which one inexplicably has to be the Glasgow-Edinburgh mainline as well. It's rather telling when push/pull loco-hauled services back in the '80s were timetabled for the same speed as what the £600m EGIP is hoping for brand new EMUs.

 

[Bright Boy]

Oh dear god.

There is quite literally no point in the Scottish Government designing their own HSR route until they at least know where, when and if the one from London would meet it. The benefit:cost ratio of what the Scottish Government have already announced an intention to develop is reasonable but the benefit:cost ratio of them building a new line to the English border, without any new line on the other side to connect to, is very low. London-Scotland HSR's benefits come from the massive modal share from air it would cause as well as the journey time, capacity and connectivity it would bring not only to Scotland but to England as well, especially the north where the air connections to Scotland are not as good and as such journey times on any mode are not fast. The most realistic option in my mind for the funding of a line is that the Scottish Government control the design of any route north of the border, within reasonable constraints, but the UK government would pay for all but the E&G section. Ending HS2 at Carlisle would be a nonsensical option regardless of the outcome of the referendum.

No need to get upset, but that is true, and you have a very good point there about the low "benefit:cost ratio" about the same "benefit:cost ratio" I think applies to HS2, and you are correct it would be pointless to end it at Carlisle, a bit like ending it at Leeds ?

 

[NotATrainspott]

No need to get upset, but that is true, and you have a very good point there about the low "benefit:cost ratio" about the same "benefit:cost ratio" I think applies to HS2, and you are correct it would be pointless to end it at Carlisle, a bit like ending it at Leeds ?

No, the BCR of building a line from either end stopping at Gretna or Carlisle would not be anywhere near 2.3, or 1.3. HS2 does not end in Leeds, or Manchester, as the mainline route continues beyond towards Scotland and Newcastle currently via connections to the West and East Coast mainlines at Bamfurlong and Church Fenton, respectively. The current plans for Bamfurlong include the necessary track alignment for the through route to continue further north with an extension and Arup designed the same for HS2 going past Leeds as well. There is a point in Leeds having a terminus because the city and its surrounding area is large enough to warrant one, which is needed to act as a terminating point for trains which stop in the East Midlands and Sheffield.

 

[Deerfold]

I brought up Scotland because they are proactive about opening up railway lines, but despite all the talk, ideas and planning about High speed lines in our country, they have not proposed any, they could have proposed them from Glasgow or Edinburgh to the border to meet one from the south when it gets there, they are now in the process of re-opening part of the Waverley route, they could have re-built it all to a high speed line, but they prefer to serve the wider community rather than waste good money, and the Scots are "canny", they would prefer for our (idi***) government to do that!

Did you just ignore my previous response to you?

http://railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1732762&postcount=63

 

[transmanche]

If that is the point, there will be a lot of people very upset that they do not have a direct express to London !, if they have to change to an expensive train in Manchester. Carlisle, Penrith, Lancaster, Preston, Wigan, Newcastle, Darlington, Durham, York to name but a few, and that's just northern England, what about North Wales and Scotland!

That's the market which will be filled by the 'Classic Compatible' trains - i.e. trains that will use HS2 and then continue on the 'classic network'. I.e. they're High Speed trains which fit into the standard UK loading gauge - much like the current Eurostar fleet.

 

[Bright Boy]

Well there's nothing gone through Parliament yet but the same link I provided mentions they're planning a high speed link between Edinburgh and Glasgow with the hope it will link into HS2.

As it's not currently known which side of the country HS2 may go up to link to Scotland and it's going to be 30 years off it's tricky for Scotland to plan to meet it just yet.

HS2 is still going through - I'd expect that to be well under way before we hear anything about HS3 or 4 in any part of the UK.

I do apologise, I don't want to leave anyone out I have been a little busy!

Yes they are planning high speed line between Edinburgh and Glasgow, however not in the same sense as HS2, they are planning to use existing lines, and some old trackbed with some new formation, and it will be for a EMU's like our current middle-distance types (like class 350) possibly at 125mph, that's what I last heard anyway. It is not a very high speed (VHS)(ala TGV/Shinkansen/Eurostar) it is more regional high speed, trains will be shorter. I have not heard that they hope to link up with HS2 ?

What I meant was that Scotland is not planning any going south to link up with England/Europe, sorry I should have been more specific.

Yes we do not know where HS3 or 4 will end up, if they ever get built, and that is part of their thoughts I suppose, but if our government is planning one to the border and over into Scotland you think that the Scottish Parliament would have some input and be talking about it, wouldn't you, unless they know something we don't?

But my point I was trying to make was that the Scottish Parliament are more interested in serving the wider Scottish community rather than just business folk, that is why they have opened local lines first and saving the high speed ones until later.
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That's the market which will be filled by the 'Classic Compatible' trains - i.e. trains that will use HS2 and then continue on the 'classic network'. I.e. they're High Speed trains which fit into the standard UK loading gauge - much like the current Eurostar fleet.

Will they be given equal running and be the same price equivalent as current "classic trains" ?

Will there be enough paths to cover all the routes that are going to miss out ?
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No, the BCR of building a line from either end stopping at Gretna or Carlisle would not be anywhere near 2.3, or 1.3. HS2 does not end in Leeds, or Manchester, as the mainline route continues beyond towards Scotland and Newcastle currently via connections to the West and East Coast mainlines at Bamfurlong and Church Fenton, respectively. The current plans for Bamfurlong include the necessary track alignment for the through route to continue further north with an extension and Arup designed the same for HS2 going past Leeds as well. There is a point in Leeds having a terminus because the city and its surrounding area is large enough to warrant one, which is needed to act as a terminating point for trains which stop in the East Midlands and Sheffield.

That's fine as long as the trains going past Leeds can reach York (a very busy tourist city) & Newcastle (as big as Leeds), not forgetting Durham, Darlington, Middlesborough & Sunderland. Liverpool, Birkenhead, Chester and Warrington from Manchester, not to mention, Preston, Blackpool, Burnley, Blackburn, Wigan, Bolton and St Helens.

Sheffield, Nottingham, Derby, Leicester, Hull, Bradford (by a little), Stoke, Peterborough, Norwich, Ipswich, Coventry, Wolverhampton, Bristol, Cardiff,Swansea, Exeter, Southampton, Portsmouth and Plymouth are all going to miss out.

Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee, Perth & Aberdeen, who knows ?

P.s sorry if I have missed anyone out

 

[NotATrainspott]

I do apologise, I don't want to leave anyone out I have been a little busy!

Yes they are planning high speed line between Edinburgh and Glasgow, however not in the same sense as HS2, they are planning to use existing lines, and some old trackbed with some new formation, and it will be for a EMU's like our current middle-distance types (like class 350) possibly at 125mph, that's what I last heard anyway. It is not a very high speed (VHS)(ala TGV/Shinkansen/Eurostar) it is more regional high speed, trains will be shorter. I have not heard that they hope to link up with HS2 ?

It will be designed for 225km/h operation, so it's likely they would use IEPs.

What I meant was that Scotland is not planning any going south to link up with England/Europe, sorry I should have been more specific.

The whole point of the line is to be the end of HS2 where it bifurcates to serve the two cities. They really, really want and need for it to connect up directly with HS2 but it is still not confirmed which way it would connect in so there is little point designing a line which would then not suit the plans for the whole network.

Yes we do not know where HS3 or 4 will end up, if they ever get built, and that is part of their thoughts I suppose, but if our government is planning one to the border and over into Scotland you think that the Scottish Parliament would have some input and be talking about it, wouldn't you, unless they know something we don't?

The Scottish Government are absolutely desperate for HS2 to be extended there and have been one of the most vocal supporters of every mention of HSR which has ever come out of Westminster. There is a report by Baroness Kramer being written right at this very moment which will explore getting the London-Scotland journey time under 3 hours which is being done in conjunction with the Scottish Government. It should be released soon, possibly even alongside the Higgins report due this Monday (17th March 2014).

But my point I was trying to make was that the Scottish Parliament are more interested in serving the wider Scottish community rather than just business folk, that is why they have opened local lines first and saving the high speed ones until later.

They are building what they can at the moment, including a massive upgrade of the Edinburgh to Glasgow lines in EGIP. Once those upgrades are complete, there isn't a vast amount more than can really be done so that is why HSR planning has to start soon for it to be ready in time for passenger numbers requiring it. The same logic applies to the E&G lines as does the north-south mainlines in England.

Will they be given equal running and be the same price equivalent as current "classic trains" ?

Yes. Because they will be the trains which go to London. There is no reason to artificially inflate fares, especially when the journey time only decreases from 4hr30 to 4hr00.

Will there be enough paths to cover all the routes that are going to miss out ?

What? None of the current routes north of Wigan or York will miss out any more than they do on the current timetable. Virgin even want to make Glasgow trains non-stop except for Preston as it might be possible to serve the intermediate stations via an additional or extended other service rather than slowing down a very important passenger flow. Right now, any few minutes time saving on this run can lead to significant extra passenger numbers. On a complete HS2, there is no reason why the majority of Scotland trains can call at Birmingham Interchange, (Crewe, if interchange built), Preston and Carlisle as the journey time savings will be significant enough that these additional stops won't harm overall journey times significantly.

That's fine as long as the trains going past Leeds can reach York (a very busy tourist city) & Newcastle (as big as Leeds), not forgetting Durham, Darlington, Middlesborough & Sunderland. Liverpool, Birkenhead, Chester and Warrington from Manchester, not to mention, Preston, Blackpool, Burnley, Blackburn, Wigan, Bolton and St Helens.

Sheffield, Nottingham, Derby, Leicester, Hull, Bradford (by a little), Stoke, Peterborough, Norwich, Ipswich, Coventry, Wolverhampton, Bristol, Cardiff,Swansea, Exeter, Southampton, Portsmouth and Plymouth are all going to miss out.

Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee, Perth & Aberdeen, who knows ?

P.s sorry if I have missed anyone out

Leeds East Coast trains do not go via York and the majority terminate in Leeds. The ratio of Leeds:York-and-Beyond trains on HS2 won't be much or any different than it is today. HS2 trains to Newcastle on the current Phase 2 plans come off HS2 at Church Fenton and then stop at York and continue as standard ECML trains to Darlington, Durham and Newcastle. Theoretically any electrified route off the ECML or WCML could be served by a classic-compatible HS2 service if the demand existed. At the same time, there will still be many IEP trains running along the ECML as they will do from 2018 or so, so there will still be fast intercity trains from Newcastle to Peterborough and so on. In fact, there will be more of them, as the stopping patterns can be more regular once non-stop trains are only on HS2.

 

[joeykins82]

Sheffield, Nottingham, Derby, Leicester, Hull, Bradford (by a little), Stoke, Peterborough, Norwich, Ipswich, Coventry, Wolverhampton, Bristol, Cardiff,Swansea, Exeter, Southampton, Portsmouth and Plymouth are all going to miss out.

Sheffield, Nottingham & Derby's access to the HS2 network will be via greatly enhanced services between their existing stations and the HS2 interchanges at Meadowhall & Toton respectively

Hull could get an hourly London service because there'll be free ECML paths with which to operate one

Bradford will connect to HS2 at Leeds or Manchester

Stoke will connect to HS2 at Crewe with enhanced connecting services

Leicester is gaining from the electrification & upgrade of the MML, and will gain on-train capacity relief from the transfer of passengers to HS2 from Derby/Nottingham/Sheffield

Peterborough gains on-train capacity relief and will likely get a Reading/Leicester type service where all 125mph services call instead of the majority running through

Coventry will gain from not having to share the trains with Birmingham-London passenger flows, and can connect to HS2 at Birmingham Interchange

Wolverhampton will require a change at Birmingham for the journey with a time saving but will retain its direct London trains and its XC services which will be less crowded because of the transfer to HS2 of Birmingham-London and Birmingham-Manchester/Leeds respectively

Bristol, Cardiff, Swansea, Exeter and Plymouth aren't gaining directly from phases 1 and 2 of HS2 but the GWML is undergoing a significant upgrade with 140mph running a distinct possibility. Further phases of UKHSR could well cover these areas. Additionally, LD-XC flows (for example Bristol-Manchester) will be quicker by changing to HS2 services at Birmingham.

Southampton & Portsmouth, and Norwich & Ipswich aren't gaining directly from phases 1 and 2, but HS2 doesn't rule out upgrades of the SWML or the GEML. There are only so many rail upgrade projects that can be done at any given time though, and playing divide & conquer by saying "these cities don't benefit so lets scrap the project" is ridiculous.

 

[Philip Elliott]

Stoke will connect to HS2 at Crewe with enhanced connecting services

You do know that Crewe is north of Stoke and that Crewe only gets high speed services south of it? Plus it will be slower than currently, risk of missed connections etc.:roll:

 

[Bright Boy]

Sheffield, Nottingham & Derby's access to the HS2 network will be via greatly enhanced services between their existing stations and the HS2 interchanges at Meadowhall & Toton respectively

Hull could get an hourly London service because there'll be free ECML paths with which to operate one

Bradford will connect to HS2 at Leeds or Manchester

Stoke will connect to HS2 at Crewe with enhanced connecting services

Leicester is gaining from the electrification & upgrade of the MML, and will gain on-train capacity relief from the transfer of passengers to HS2 from Derby/Nottingham/Sheffield

Peterborough gains on-train capacity relief and will likely get a Reading/Leicester type service where all 125mph services call instead of the majority running through

Coventry will gain from not having to share the trains with Birmingham-London passenger flows, and can connect to HS2 at Birmingham Interchange

Wolverhampton will require a change at Birmingham for the journey with a time saving but will retain its direct London trains and its XC services which will be less crowded because of the transfer to HS2 of Birmingham-London and Birmingham-Manchester/Leeds respectively

Bristol, Cardiff, Swansea, Exeter and Plymouth aren't gaining directly from phases 1 and 2 of HS2 but the GWML is undergoing a significant upgrade with 140mph running a distinct possibility. Further phases of UKHSR could well cover these areas. Additionally, LD-XC flows (for example Bristol-Manchester) will be quicker by changing to HS2 services at Birmingham.

Southampton & Portsmouth, and Norwich & Ipswich aren't gaining directly from phases 1 and 2, but HS2 doesn't rule out upgrades of the SWML or the GEML. There are only so many rail upgrade projects that can be done at any given time though, and playing divide & conquer by saying "these cities don't benefit so lets scrap the project" is ridiculous.

I never said " these cities don't benefit so lets scrap the project" what I did was that these cities are missing out with the HS2 project

Most of what you state about things they are going to benefit from are coming from other rail projects that are nothing to do with HS2.

I am not playing "divide & conquer" ?, and catch-phrases or Daily Sun Headlines are not my style, try asking people from those cities I mentioned what they think of HS2 and how it helps them. I live near Manchester, HS2 will have a station very near to me in Manchester Airport, but that does not make blind to what most of the rest of the country are missing out on, and that is a poorer rail service than either Manchester, Leeds or Birmingham get now, never mind after HS2 gets here. Many towns have no rail service at all!

The point I have always been trying to make is that HS2 does not benefit many people, compared to what can be benefitted by opening up regular lines (and stations) to towns that either don't have a railway or links between towns that have to go a longer way around (like Rugby - Lutterworth - Leicester - Nottingham), and for probably a lot less cost, which can also relieve pressure on the main inter-city routes. That is not "ridiculous", that is plain and common sense.

Some people seem to think that spending a vast amount of money and, a nice round number in the billions on something fast & flashy is the answer to all our problems (the concorde complex), when in reality something cheaper, practical and sensible is the better way to improve things.

 

[NotATrainspott]

I never said " these cities don't benefit so lets scrap the project" what I did was that these cities are missing out with the HS2 project

Most of what you state about things they are going to benefit from are coming from other rail projects that are nothing to do with HS2.

I am not playing "divide & conquer" ?, and catch-phrases or Daily Sun Headlines are not my style, try asking people from those cities I mentioned what they think of HS2 and how it helps them. I live near Manchester, HS2 will have a station very near to me in Manchester Airport, but that does not make blind to what most of the rest of the country are missing out on, and that is a poorer rail service than either Manchester, Leeds or Birmingham get now, never mind after HS2 gets here. Many towns have no rail service at all!

The point I have always been trying to make is that HS2 does not benefit many people, compared to what can be benefitted by opening up regular lines (and stations) to towns that either don't have a railway or links between towns that have to go a longer way around (like Rugby - Lutterworth - Leicester - Nottingham), and for probably a lot less cost, which can also relieve pressure on the main inter-city routes. That is not "ridiculous", that is plain and common sense.

Some people seem to think that spending a vast amount of money and, a nice round number in the billions on something fast & flashy is the answer to all our problems (the concorde complex), when in reality something cheaper, practical and sensible is the better way to improve things.

HS2 benefits a considerable number of people, not just the people who are going to travel on it regularly. All commuters and travellers on the current mainlines at intermediate stations will see improvements in their services which simply cannot be delivered without taking the non-stop trains and putting them on HS2. Reopened lines have to feed into classic lines and there won't be any space on the classic lines for any extra trains if there is no HS2, as the vast majority of reopened lines will connect to an HS2 city 'hub' at least once along their route. Spending £50bn on HS2 would do a lot more good for the country than spending £50bn on everything-public-transport-but-HS2 as any HS2 alternative would burn most of the money on expensive, complex and time-consuming upgrades of the lines relieved by HS2 while delivering effectively none of the benefits.

 

[Bright Boy]

""The Scottish Government are absolutely desperate for HS2 to be extended there and have been one of the most vocal supporters of every mention of HSR which has ever come out of Westminster. There is a report by Baroness Kramer being written right at this very moment which will explore getting the London-Scotland journey time under 3 hours which is being done in conjunction with the Scottish Government. It should be released soon, possibly even alongside the Higgins report due this Monday (17th March 2014).""



""They are building what they can at the moment, including a massive upgrade of the Edinburgh to Glasgow lines in EGIP. Once those upgrades are complete, there isn't a vast amount more than can really be done so that is why HSR planning has to start soon for it to be ready in time for passenger numbers requiring it. The same logic applies to the E&G lines as does the north-south mainlines in England.""


If they are so desperate for High Speed lines, why have they spent loads on opening old lines serving rail starved communities, and not saving their money for the big one? Scotland do not have a bottom-less pit of cash, where are they going to get their money from, Iceland, Isle of Man?

Maybe it is political posturing, playing a waiting game? My outlook on such matters is I will believe it when I see it

 

[jon0844]

I can't understand why anyone would mention places like Cardiff or Norwich not benefitting from HS2. How does the WCML or ECML benefit them today?

They have their own lines to upgrade. The GWML is being electrified and upgraded and I'm sure the GEML will be improved too.

The point is HS2 isn't the only big rail project. Once built, we will be looking at HS3 and beyond. Maybe not in our lifetime, but they will be built for another 100-200 years or more.