Trains that are cancelled then run through empty with no conductor

[MartinsR]

Tonight the 2056 from Adlington lancs to Blackpool North was cancelled. Me and others on the platform were shocked to see our train bomb through without stopping at 2042.

Is this common when there isn't a conductor?

As you can imagine it's really frustrating when you're at an unstaffed station with only 1 train an hour calling here. I then look on real time trains and note the return journey at 2220 from Blackpool North to Manchester Vic is cancelled. I then note the train is again to run back to Manchester Vic empty passed all waiting passengers? Is this to change drivers?

As you can imagine its awful service and I've seen it before with northern. Not only that passengers are sometimes dangerously close to the edge of unstaffed platforms as they can see there train coming and don't see it's doing 75 mph.

 

[Chapeltom]

Yes, it is common. Trains still have to get to their destination in their diagram, so if there is a driver it will run but as empty coaching stock.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If there is no conductor, there is no one who is responsible for the safety of the passengers (this is different for DOO areas), no-one to open the doors and no one to close them. It may well be that whilst the train simply goes back and forward it is a different driver, it could be that it is a different unit going back. It may also be that whilst the train back is currently cancelled, another conductor might be found before departure time and the train reinstated.

At some stations where there are yellow lines and notices and announcements to keep behind the yellow lines, but you'll be amazed how many people don't listen or ignore the advice, so I'm not at all surprised that at an unstaffed station they can act in that way.

The people (who, if we are honest, probably couldn't tell a passenger coach from a heavy freight loco) really have no way of knowing, from a distance, what train is approaching, I've seen people move right up to the platform edge when a freight train is approaching and the service they are waiting for is still ten minutes away (by the timetable, not because of lateness).

 

[berneyarms]

Yes, it is common. Trains still have to get to their destination in their diagram, so if there is a driver it will run but as empty coaching stock.

That's all well and good, but the two workings concerned are
20:22 Manchester Victoria - Blackpool North
22:20 Blackpool North - Manchester Victoria

Can you possibly explain why a train would be sent from Manchester to Blackpool and back ecs?

 

[Monty]

I can only assume that control planned to have a guard for the return working but for whatever reason couldn't provide one and thus the unit had to go back to Man Vic for it's next booked working.

 

[Tomnick]

That's all well and good, but the two workings concerned are
20:22 Manchester Victoria - Blackpool North
22:20 Blackpool North - Manchester Victoria

Can you possibly explain why a train would be sent from Manchester to Blackpool and back ecs?

Possibly booked to be a different unit coming back (or a unit swap required) or a different driver (and nowhere to dump the unit whilst the drivers were conveyed by other means), or as above.

 

[northwichcat]

The 16:58 Stockport-Chester, which runs ECS from Newton Heath and picks up a conductor at Stockport is one of the first choices for cancellation if Northern are short of a conductor and if that is announced after the unit has left Newton Heath then it runs ECS to Chester. Then the driver leaves the unit there and catches the ATW service back to Manchester.

 

[High Dyke]

Possibly booked to be a different unit coming back (or a unit swap required) or a different driver (and nowhere to dump the unit whilst the drivers were conveyed by other means), or as above.

I would agree with that. Looking at it 150136 was booked to work the Man Vic - Blackpool service originally, however the return trip at 22:20 was booked for 142003 / 158817 .

Having seen the same thing happen in my area (EMT) it makes it difficult at those unstaffed stations that have a signal box adjacent. The passengers stand looking at you in anger. It's made worse when a station fitted with a CIS system, be it display screens or auto announcers, advises the train is cancelled only for it to pass everyone a few minutes later.

 

[driver9000]

That's all well and good, but the two workings concerned are
20:22 Manchester Victoria - Blackpool North
22:20 Blackpool North - Manchester Victoria

Can you possibly explain why a train would be sent from Manchester to Blackpool and back ecs?

Stock off the 20:22 needed to be in Blackpool and 22:20 stock needed to be in Manchester. Same Driver works both trains so the stock balance can be maintained even though it meant cancelling them as passenger workings due to no Guard.

 

[user15681]

Conversely I've had the opposite. The conductor was hugely delayed inbound, so the train ran in service to meet her at station A. Waited there for a while, before leaving to meet the conductor at station B. They could have operated it ECS but didn't and it payed off as the conductor eventually met the train. All credit to the driver though who filled the announcement role of conductor, despite all the AWS and vigilance going off in the background.

 

[Tomnick]

Having seen the same thing happen in my area (EMT) it makes it difficult at those unstaffed stations that have a signal box adjacent. The passengers stand looking at you in anger. It's made worse when a station fitted with a CIS system, be it display screens or auto announcers, advises the train is cancelled only for it to pass everyone a few minutes later.

Yes, been there too! Perhaps the most awkward was trying to explain to intending passengers that nothing at all can move in their direction of travel because of a points failure - just before a freight train (the one that had run through the points) passed through...
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Conversely I've had the opposite. The conductor was hugely delayed inbound, so the train ran in service to meet her at station A. Waited there for a while, before leaving to meet the conductor at station B. They could have operated it ECS but didn't and it payed off as the conductor eventually met the train. All credit to the driver though who filled the announcement role of conductor, despite all the AWS and vigilance going off in the background.

Presumably possible only because both train and route (as far as B) was passed for DOO?

 

[LBSCR Times]

Even where routes are passed for DOO, the rules can still be complicated.
FCC run DOO from Brighton, with 4, 8 or 12 car trains.
However, whilst many of Southern's Brighton services run DOO from Brighton to London, if an East or West Coast service arrives at Hayward's Heath, and there is no Conductor to work forward, then there are only certain circumstances where the trains can run forward DOO in passenger use, rather than empty.

 

[user15681]

Presumably possible only because both train and route (as far as B) was passed for DOO?

That's correct. Soon after B it moves out of DOO.

 

[MartinsR]

Yes, it is common. Trains still have to get to their destination in their diagram, so if there is a driver it will run but as empty coaching stock.

Terrible from passengers point of view though isn't it? Especially at night on a stopper. Of course no arrangements were made for tpe to stop at affected stations. What's the ruling for this?
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That's all well and good, but the two workings concerned are
20:22 Manchester Victoria - Blackpool North
22:20 Blackpool North - Manchester Victoria

Can you possibly explain why a train would be sent from Manchester to Blackpool and back ecs?

Awful isn't it. Terrible service again from northern. If arrangements were made for tpe to stop at affected stations I'd think northern cared about there passengers, but nothing! Adlington lancs is a disgrace! No Money been spent on anything!
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I would agree with that. Looking at it 150136 was booked to work the Man Vic - Blackpool service originally, however the return trip at 22:20 was booked for 142003 / 158817 .

Having seen the same thing happen in my area (EMT) it makes it difficult at those unstaffed stations that have a signal box adjacent. The passengers stand looking at you in anger. It's made worse when a station fitted with a CIS system, be it display screens or auto announcers, advises the train is cancelled only for it to pass everyone a few minutes later.

All those watching eyes lol

 

[Fincra5]

Even where routes are passed for DOO, the rules can still be complicated.
FCC run DOO from Brighton, with 4, 8 or 12 car trains.
However, whilst many of Southern's Brighton services run DOO from Brighton to London, if an East or West Coast service arrives at Hayward's Heath, and there is no Conductor to work forward, then there are only certain circumstances where the trains can run forward DOO in passenger use, rather than empty.

Indeed. the agreement is DOO, where a Conductor is supposed to be on, under special circumstances. And 12 cars are very rarely DOO for SN. Ofc the DOO service cannot stray off the Mainline (or non DOO routes) in any circumstance whilst in passenger service.

The only exception is via LEWES (non stop) as FCC use this a DOO diversionary route too.

 

[TheEdge]

Terrible from passengers point of view though isn't it? Especially at night on a stopper. Of course no arrangements were made for tpe to stop at affected stations. What's the ruling for this?

Simple. It can't. A train without a conductor not running in a DOO area cannot carry passengers. End of.

Awful isn't it. Terrible service again from northern. If arrangements were made for tpe to stop at affected stations I'd think northern cared about there passengers, but nothing! Adlington lancs is a disgrace! No Money been spent on anything!

See above.

 

[455driver]

Terrible from passengers point of view though isn't it? Especially at night on a stopper. Of course no arrangements were made for tpe to stop at affected stations. What's the ruling for this?

You know for a fact that Northern didnt ask TPE to stop do you?
Or are you just assuming!

Maybe they did ask but TPE said no?

 

[MartinsR]

Simple. It can't. A train without a conductor not running in a DOO area cannot carry passengers. End of.



See above.

Kindly read above yourself. I'm not now asking that above!
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You know for a fact that Northern didnt ask TPE to stop do you?
Or are you just assuming!

Maybe they did ask but TPE said no?

I tweeted northern about the tpe departure and whether it would be stopping. They said that they were reliant on the info being cascaded down to all staff. Whatever that means. It was clearly coats on at the ready for the twitter team at 8pm on a Saturday night. No care for waiting passengers at all.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....I tweeted northern about the tpe departure and whether it would be stopping. They said that they were reliant on the info being cascaded down to all staff. Whatever that means. It was clearly coats on at the ready for the twitter team at 8pm on a Saturday night. No care for waiting passengers at all.

Northern ask TPE to stop the train, IF TPE say yes, they have to get hold of driver or guard of the train to tell them they have to stop, this is usually through station staff, but could be via the signalman or direct if they have a direct number and the person is not performing safety critical duties (that's things like "driving a train").

Clearly you don't like Northern, that's your problem, but because something doesn't happen it doesn't mean that a group of people haven't tried and don't care.

 

[47802]

Northern ask TPE to stop the train, IF TPE say yes, they have to get hold of driver or guard of the train to tell them they have to stop, this is usually through station staff, but could be via the signalman or direct if they have a direct number and the person is not performing safety critical duties (that's things like "driving a train").

Clearly you don't like Northern, that's your problem, but because something doesn't happen it doesn't mean that a group of people haven't tried and don't care.

I'm not surprised MartinR is a bit hacked off, and as far not liking Northern that goes most normal punters who actually use Northern don't actually like northern with crap overcrowded trains, they use it mostly because there isn't a practical alternative.

In the office where I work how often do I hear comments from people who don't work in the industry or have any interest in railways, about Northern services yet these people will happily use TPX, EMT or East Coast services.

 

[berneyarms]

Reading this thread with a customer service hat on I could almost despair.

From a railway operations perspective, I fully appreciate the rational for the ecs move - I hadn't considered a set swap! That would of course render the move necessary.

However, for people to accuse someone who is waiting at an unstaffed station for a train that operates once an hour, only to see it pass through empty, as simply not liking a TOC, I think is pushing things. Put yourself in his shoes - would you not be frustrated too?

And secondly, I can understand the mechanics of trying to get the next train to stop, in terms of getting a stop order through to the train crew, but I have to say that from a customer service perspective, the last line here in the quote below is awful:

You know for a fact that Northern didnt ask TPE to stop do you?
Or are you just assuming!

Maybe they did ask but TPE said no?

Nothing personal, but this sort of thing is what gives the railway a bad name, surely the railway should be working together in circumstances like this, or is this just another example of privatisation fragmenting the network even further?

Ultimately it is experiences like this that can drive people away from the railway as a whole, and not just one TOC.

 

[LowLevel]

It depends on the situation - if TPE become an all stopper for example then the passengers already on board with connections could miss them. It's a fine balancing act.

 

[berneyarms]

It depends on the situation - if TPE become an all stopper for example then the passengers already on board with connections could miss them. It's a fine balancing act.

I know that - it just sounded awful from a customer service perspective.

In this particular case, to be fair I'm not sure that there are too many connections from Preston at 2133 on a Saturday night!

 

[northwichcat]

It depends on the situation - if TPE become an all stopper for example then the passengers already on board with connections could miss them. It's a fine balancing act.

Also if TPE are running 2 x 185s in multiple the train would be too long to stop at some of the stations they don't normally serve.

 

[fowler9]

I think sometimes it may be wise to just inform the customer what is happening. Tell them why the train can't carry passengers without a guard. Tell them why it is running through empty. Tell them why another express service can't stop instead. Most people are quite reasonable if you actually tell them what is going on and why.

 

[455driver]

It was clearly coats on at the ready for the twitter team at 8pm on a Saturday night. No care for waiting passengers at all.

More assumptions on your part! :roll:

 

[MartinsR]

Northern ask TPE to stop the train, IF TPE say yes, they have to get hold of driver or guard of the train to tell them they have to stop, this is usually through station staff, but could be via the signalman or direct if they have a direct number and the person is not performing safety critical duties (that's things like "driving a train").

Clearly you don't like Northern, that's your problem, but because something doesn't happen it doesn't mean that a group of people haven't tried and don't care.

Clearly I don't like northern? What utter trash. I don't like what happened on Saturday 8th March 2014 and events that followed after the train was cancelled.
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I'm not surprised MartinR is a bit hacked off, and as far not liking Northern that goes most normal punters who actually use Northern don't actually like northern with crap overcrowded trains, they use it mostly because there isn't a practical alternative.

In the office where I work how often do I hear comments from people who don't work in the industry or have any interest in railways, about Northern services yet these people will happily use TPX, EMT or East Coast services.

At last somebody that understands.
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Reading this thread with a customer service hat on I could almost despair.

From a railway operations perspective, I fully appreciate the rational for the ecs move - I hadn't considered a set swap! That would of course render the move necessary.

However, for people to accuse someone who is waiting at an unstaffed station for a train that operates once an hour, only to see it pass through empty, as simply not liking a TOC, I think is pushing things. Put yourself in his shoes - would you not be frustrated too?

And secondly, I can understand the mechanics of trying to get the next train to stop, in terms of getting a stop order through to the train crew, but I have to say that from a customer service perspective, the last line here in the quote below is awful:



Nothing personal, but this sort of thing is what gives the railway a bad name, surely the railway should be working together in circumstances like this, or is this just another example of privatisation fragmenting the network even further?

Ultimately it is experiences like this that can drive people away from the railway as a whole, and not just one TOC.

I agree with everything you just wrote and well done
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I know that - it just sounded awful from a customer service perspective.

In this particular case, to be fair I'm not sure that there are too many connections from Preston at 2133 on a Saturday night!

Hear hear!
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I think sometimes it may be wise to just inform the customer what is happening. Tell them why the train can't carry passengers without a guard. Tell them why it is running through empty. Tell them why another express service can't stop instead. Most people are quite reasonable if you actually tell them what is going on and why.

Yes info is key!
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More assumptions on your part! :roll:

Can you not even put yourself in the passengers shoes even for just 1 minute? Cold wet windy unstaffed station with no real time screen, broken glass shelter with 7 drunks all over me! Then I think great the trains here let's get out of here for it to fly past at 75mph with another hour before the next train? Then the 2113 tpe from Horwich parkway does the same? Come on! I was upset! Awful evening waiting just to catch a train!

 

[northernchris]

Can you not even put yourself in the passengers shoes even for just 1 minute? Cold wet windy unstaffed station with no real time screen, broken glass shelter with 7 drunks all over me! Then I think great the trains here let's get out of here for it to fly past at 75mph with another hour before the next train? Then the 2113 tpe from Horwich parkway does the same? Come on! I was upset! Awful evening waiting just to catch a train!

I think you would be best directing your comments at Northern Customer Services as I'm sure some sort of compensation must be due in those circumstances

I usually find Northern to be very good but one thing that does puzzle me is most Saturday evenings there's at least one cancellation in Area West due to a shortage of traincrew. There doesn't seem to be many problems on say a Thursday afternoon, or in Area East in general so this is something which I hope is being addressed

 

[455driver]

Can you not even put yourself in the passengers shoes even for just 1 minute? Cold wet windy unstaffed station with no real time screen, broken glass shelter with 7 drunks all over me! Then I think great the trains here let's get out of here for it to fly past at 75mph with another hour before the next train? Then the 2113 tpe from Horwich parkway does the same? Come on! I was upset! Awful evening waiting just to catch a train!

Yeah I can actually but I also know what an uphill job the TOCs have getting even the simplest/cheapest improvements past the DaFT.

Take it up with the people that can make a difference and dont just moan about those that cant!

 

[Clip]

Can you not even put yourself in the passengers shoes even for just 1 minute? Cold wet windy unstaffed station with no real time screen, broken glass shelter with 7 drunks all over me! Then I think great the trains here let's get out of here for it to fly past at 75mph with another hour before the next train? Then the 2113 tpe from Horwich parkway does the same? Come on! I was upset! Awful evening waiting just to catch a train!

To add to the other reasons for the TPE not stopping did you stop to think about how that would affect the TPE service now running out of sync with the timetable and all the complications that could make further on in its journey and all those passengers too both on the service or maybe needing it to make a connection? And what about other services who also have other passengers on whose journey and connections now may be ruined because the TPE service has stopped elsewhere to pick up other passengers and has now caused choas across a lot of the network in the north west?

It may sound trivial for you but the knock on effects of late running services can spread quite quickly through a large part of the network so because you apparently had 7 drunks over you(I dont think so) you are quite happy to have your needs surpass the thousands of other passengers who could now have their journey disrupted because you want to be picked up by an unscheduled service?