Gating fast line platforms to reduce suicides at stations including New Southgate

[wyvfe1]

Hi All,
Anyone know what work they are doing to the platform (1 and 2) at New Southgate.

Loads of Concrete bags and metal frame bits pilled up on the old goods platform.
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-Update-
Spoke to a FCC guy and he said they are adding a fence between the fast and slow platforms.

There will be a fence down the middle of the platforms for health and safety reasons.

Not sure what will happen if your on platform 1 and the next train stops on platform 2

 

[A-driver]

They are fencing the fast lines off like they have already done at knebworth and are doing at barnet. There will be gates to get through if a train uses the fast. It's part of the suicide prevention strategy- been successful on the Brighton mainline out if Victoria as far as I'm aware.

Before the debate starts again, I know there are gates and someone that determined will climb over the fence but it's about stopping someone and snapping them out of the suicidal trail if thought basically. The physical obstacle will make them think for a second which can be enough for them to stand back and re-think what they are doing.

Almost all island platforms as far as knebworth are due to have them I believe, there was a list up at the depot but I can't remember exactly which stations were on it.

 

[petersi]

Almost all island platforms as far as knebworth are due to have them I believe, there was a list up at the depot but I can't remember exactly which stations were on it.

For the amount of use these platformes get why no remove the fast line platform face all together. No scheduled train stops at them and in disruption services to them are cancelled save on maintenance and CCTV etc

First north bound platform kept could be Hatfield . last south bound platform Potters Bar before Finsbury park

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[A-driver]

For the amount of use these platformes get why no remove the fast line platform face all together. No scheduled train stops at them and in disruption services to them are cancelled save on maintenance and CCTV etc

First north bound platform kept could be Hatfield . last south bound platform Potters Bar before Finsbury park

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Actually they get a fair bit of use, often early morning and late evening when the slows are blocked. Infact the very first and last few trains are booked fast line, hence the 0410 Welwyn-kings x stops at all stations bar welham green etc.

And in disruption they couldn't just completely suspend all trains to those stations.

And it would be far more expensive to rebuild the platform edges and it makes no cost difference if you fence off the middle or edge of the existing platforms. Plus fencing off the fast line faces would need a block on the fast lines to do. They can instal mid-platform fences whilst all lines are open.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The fences are in place on the southern WCML too. Keeping the platform face is important, it isn't just in disruption when trains may call at these faces. The cost of removing the face is far in excess of the cost of putting up a fence.

I still find it odd, though, that NR are putting these fences in here but up the line at Peterborough went and built a new platform on the up fast.

 

[Aictos]

They are fencing the fast lines off like they have already done at knebworth and are doing at barnet. There will be gates to get through if a train uses the fast. It's part of the suicide prevention strategy- been successful on the Brighton mainline out if Victoria as far as I'm aware.

Before the debate starts again, I know there are gates and someone that determined will climb over the fence but it's about stopping someone and snapping them out of the suicidal trail if thought basically. The physical obstacle will make them think for a second which can be enough for them to stand back and re-think what they are doing.

Almost all island platforms as far as knebworth are due to have them I believe, there was a list up at the depot but I can't remember exactly which stations were on it.

Oh you mean like they've done at Hayes & Harlington where they've fenced off between Platforms 2 and 3 with gates to allow access between the two platforms?

Got to ask but will Stevenage, Biggleswade and St Neots see them as they are the only stations on the GN north of Knebworth that have island platforms and a history I think of previous fatalities?

 

[Bald Rick]

Oh you mean like they've done at Hayes & Harlington where they've fenced off between Platforms 2 and 3 with gates to allow access between the two platforms?

Got to ask but will Stevenage, Biggleswade and St Neots see them as they are the only stations on the GN north of Knebworth that have island platforms and a history I think of previous fatalities?

Stevenage won't, as it sees regular use. Don't know about the other two. There are however, (sadly) numerous examples of fatalities off fast line platforms south of Hitchin.

Strategy has been very successful on the Victoria - Gatwick route; IIRC there has only been one fatality at Purley / Purley Oaks since they went in 6 years ago, compared to numerous examples previously.

 

[A-driver]

Oh you mean like they've done at Hayes & Harlington where they've fenced off between Platforms 2 and 3 with gates to allow access between the two platforms?



Got to ask but will Stevenage, Biggleswade and St Neots see them as they are the only stations on the GN north of Knebworth that have island platforms and a history I think of previous fatalities?

Can't remember if Biggleswade and at Neots were on the list- I would guess not though as they see fairly regular use on the fast lines in both peaks and late evenings with the fast trains.

 

[asylumxl]

They've started appearing at stations on the Midland Main Line. The first stations I've noticed them at is Mill Hill Broadway, which is a suicide hotspot on the southern MML.

The fast line platforms do get used during engineering work etc. so one would hope they will be opened as they are meant to be when needed, unlike what has happend at some WCML stations.

 

[jopsuk]

I still find it odd, though, that NR are putting these fences in here but up the line at Peterborough went and built a new platform on the up fast.

Indeed. Pity they couldn't get a wide enough platform and build the new up platform on a loop. Looks a bizarre decision.

I bet someone's done at least a back-of-a-fag-packet calculation with regards to rebuilding Stevenage to have the same layout as Welwyn. You would have to lose car park space either side, the station would have to close whilst the old bridge/building was demolished, and for much of the work you'd only be able to have trains running on the existing fast lines.

 

[philjo]

The train I was on called on the fast platform at Knebworth the other day due to a faulty east coast service that had terminated in platfrom 4 at Stevenage. THe passengers alighting at Knebworth found their exit blocked due to the new fencing so they had a long walk to get off the platform - though I did notice that a few passengers just vaulted over the fence without any difficulty!
I know some Knebworth passengers have complained to FCC about the fences as they say it has made the fast line platforms very narrow so more peoplpe are having to stand close to the yellow line on the fast platfroms if a train happens to call on the fast line instead of the slow.

 

[34D]

How are these fast platforms unlocked, and whose responsibility is it?

 

[A-driver]

How are these fast platforms unlocked, and whose responsibility is it?

As far as I'm aware they arnt locked, the gates can be slid open. At least the ones at knebworth don't lock unless they are yet to fit locks.

 

[wyvfe1]

As far as I'm aware they arnt locked, the gates can be slid open. At least the ones at knebworth don't lock unless they are yet to fit locks.

The New Southgate gates do have locks.

 

[BestWestern]

Can't help but think this is an enormously costly way of shifting the suicide issue elsewhere. It only takes a few people to find their nearest foot or farm crossing, or hole in an embankment fence in more built up areas, and the copy cat effect will surely take effect. Let's face it, access to railway lines isn't difficult, we have the vandals and 'artists' to demonstrate that.

 

[yorkie]

I know some Knebworth passengers have complained to FCC about the fences as they say it has made the fast line platforms very narrow so more peoplpe are having to stand close to the yellow line on the fast platfroms if a train happens to call on the fast line instead of the slow.

Yeah but elf & safety obsessives who insist on these sort of projects don't have common sense, and can't see the bigger picture. It's a shame the rail industry hasn't got the guts to refuse to pander to their whims.
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I still find it odd, though, that NR are putting these fences in here but up the line at Peterborough went and built a new platform on the up fast.

(To be fair about half the trains on the fast will be wanting to call at Peterborough)
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Can't help but think this is an enormously costly way of shifting the suicide issue elsewhere....

Totally agree.

 

[bramling]

Can't help but think this is an enormously costly way of shifting the suicide issue elsewhere. It only takes a few people to find their nearest foot or farm crossing, or hole in an embankment fence in more built up areas, and the copy cat effect will surely take effect. Let's face it, access to railway lines isn't difficult, we have the vandals and 'artists' to demonstrate that.

Yes in my view the whole thing is ridiculous. I've travelled almost daily in / out of KX for 30 years, and I've only ever been caught up in 3 fatality incidents in that time. One was a jumper at Alexandra Palace, however the other was a jumper from a bridge, and in the other case the person had accessed the railway by climbing through the wire fence from a trackside public footpath in a remote spot north of Potters Bar.

We now see yellow markings on platforms, fencing at platform ends, Samaritans signs everywhere, and the latest innovation is these mid-platform barriers which are simply a total nuisance to the majority of people. I can understand for platforms on S-S-F-F railways where use of fast platforms is uncommon, however at Knebworth it is very common for the fast platforms to be used - some trains are even booked to do so. Also there are non-stop trains booked on the slow platforms as well.

As someone who as been involved in the clear-up of many 'one unders' on LUL, I fully appreciate the effects these incidents have on the railway and those involved, however I find it ridiculous the way infrastructure is now being geared around these individuals. The determined jumper will find somewhere else, and generally if the problem transfers to remote locations then incidents will take longer to resolve. Finally it's equally possible for a fatality to occur at a platform where trains regularly stop, a well-timed jump can prove fatal even for a train entering a platform at 20 mph.

 

[A-driver]

Yes in my view the whole thing is ridiculous. I've travelled almost daily in / out of KX for 30 years, and I've only ever been caught up in 3 fatality incidents in that time. One was a jumper at Alexandra Palace, however the other was a jumper from a bridge, and in the other case the person had accessed the railway by climbing through the wire fence from a trackside public footpath in a remote spot north of Potters Bar.



We now see yellow markings on platforms, fencing at platform ends, Samaritans signs everywhere, and the latest innovation is these mid-platform barriers which are simply a total nuisance to the majority of people. I can understand for platforms on S-S-F-F railways where use of fast platforms is uncommon, however at Knebworth it is very common for the fast platforms to be used - some trains are even booked to do so. Also there are non-stop trains booked on the slow platforms as well.



As someone who as been involved in the clear-up of many 'one unders' on LUL, I fully appreciate the effects these incidents have on the railway and those involved, however I find it ridiculous the way infrastructure is now being geared around these individuals. The determined jumper will find somewhere else, and generally if the problem transfers to remote locations then incidents will take longer to resolve. Finally it's equally possible for a fatality to occur at a platform where trains regularly stop, a well-timed jump can prove fatal even for a train entering a platform at 20 mph.

Sorry but I don't agree with much of that. You say you have only been affected by 3 fatalities during your period of daily commutes but the actual figures are far, far higher.

These fences have proved very successful in other areas such as the Brighton line in reducing fatalities and if the cost of the fences is less than the cost of dealing with the incidents then they are a success.

A lot of people commenting lately on this thread seem to have the wrong idea of suicide. Yes someone can still gain access if that determined but that is the thing, suicidal people are not that determined. An easy way to end your life in the mind of a suicidal person (which is not something you can begin to imagine unless you have been there) would be to walk round to the local station, head onto the platform and step off infront of a train. You leave your house and go and do that very easily. As soon as you hit any kind if barrier (not in the physical sense) it suddenly becomes far harder to go through with it. Simply someone standing infront if you and saying 'hello' or asking if you are ok can suddenly break your line of thought and make suicide impossible.

These gates are a physical barrier and to a suicidal person, encountering these fences will break that mindset and make suicide very, very difficult.

I should stress that I myself have never contented suicide before people start asking, but my brother is a psychiatric nurse and so knows all about these kind if things.

 

[transmanche]

A lot of people commenting lately on this thread seem to have the wrong idea of suicide.

^ This.

Spot on there A-driver. A small barrier (either physical or figurative) may be enough to stop someone committing suicide. A such, these efforts at railway stations (fences, yellow markings, Samaritans signs and training staff to identify those potentially 'at-risk' and intervening) are all to be commended. And not just because it saves on delay minutes, but because they really can save a life.

For those haven't already done so, it's worth looking at the Samaritans webpage on Reducing Railway Deaths.

 

[Bald Rick]

^ This.

Spot on there A-driver. A small barrier (either physical or figurative) may be enough to stop someone committing suicide. A such, these efforts at railway stations (fences, yellow markings, Samaritans signs and training staff to identify those potentially 'at-risk' and intervening) are all to be commended. And not just because it saves on delay minutes, but because they really can save a life.

For those haven't already done so, it's worth looking at the Samaritans webpage on Reducing Railway Deaths.

Absolutely spot on. There is now plenty of evidence - at least evidence I have seen in meetings on the subject - that schemes like this do help prevent a proportion of suicides on the railway. I know of 2 real examples where the fencing has been effective - and those just happen to be examples that colleagues have been involved in, I expect there are many more.

And it isn't that costly at all, at least not compared to the myriad other schemes that money is spent on to improve performance. Being slightly blunt about it, a suicide in the evening peak on some lines of route can easily cost half a million quid in delay payments to the operators. Fencing isn't costing that much, and generally will pay for itself through one avoided fatality.

 

[wyvfe1]

Some photo's attached.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes in my view the whole thing is ridiculous. I've travelled almost daily in / out of KX for 30 years, and I've only ever been caught up in 3 fatality incidents in that time.

Were you travelling this morning?

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I've been travelling in/out of Kings Cross once a week for over a year. This is the second incident I have been been affected by in just over a month. Both at Hatfield, where no middle-of-the-platform fence exists on the down island (and the up platform is adjacent only to the slow line, so would not require a fence).

 

[A-driver]

Were you travelling this morning?

Beat me to it. Second fatality this week between kings cross and stevenage with Mondays fatality at Hadley wood.

 

[bramling]

^ This.

Spot on there A-driver. A small barrier (either physical or figurative) may be enough to stop someone committing suicide. A such, these efforts at railway stations (fences, yellow markings, Samaritans signs and training staff to identify those potentially 'at-risk' and intervening) are all to be commended. And not just because it saves on delay minutes, but because they really can save a life.

For those haven't already done so, it's worth looking at the Samaritans webpage on Reducing Railway Deaths.

On London Underground, which is my background, we are seeing as many suicides as ever. It's a highly selfish way to go about it, because of the effect on others, not just in terms of the delay and disruption, but also more importantly the effect it has on those directly involved, both in the initial incident, and the subsequent clear-up. We have drivers who have never returned to the role, or who have had to face angry relatives at the coroner's court when the reality is the driver has of course done nothing wrong, and in fact did everything within their power to prevent or minimise the consequences of the incident.

If people are going to do it then they will, and the system should be set up to deal with the incident as quickly as possible, which it is - there has been a considerable focus in the last couple of years on getting the railway back as quickly as possible, which is generally bearing fruit as the length of time taken to resolve one unders is tending to fall.

Maybe my attitude has been hardened by the number that I have dealt with (37 and counting), however my view is strongly that support should be focussed on those directly affected by the incident, rather than the individual who has chosen to cause the problem.
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Were you travelling this morning?

Fortunately not! About to head in, so hopefully it will all be resolved by the time I get to the station. Once again failed to be prevented by platform fences..

 

[transmanche]

It's a highly selfish way to go about it

If you knew anything about the mental state of people who (try to) commit suicide, you'd know that 'selfish' is a stupid word to use.

 

[Clip]

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Fortunately not! About to head in, so hopefully it will all be resolved by the time I get to the station. Once again failed to be prevented by platform fences..

Surely you must agree that anything which can prevent someone from killing themselves and maybe getting help is a good thing though? I would be stunned if you did not.

On the second point, does Hatfield have fences? If not then its a pretty shameful statement to make isnt it.

 

[bramling]

If you knew anything about the mental state of people who (try to) commit suicide, you'd know that 'selfish' is a stupid word to use.

The fact is, it *is* selfish to go about it in a way which affects others. The individual's choice of actions has a massive effect those involved, ranging from those who experience disruption, to most importantly the effect on those who have to deal with the incident -- those who witness it, the train driver, and the many people who deal with the resolution through the many parts of the process.

It also exposes others to risks they wouldn't otherwise have faced. I recall an incident where someone jumped at a station where there were two adjacent tracks with platforms either side. Those on the opposite platform tried to pull the person out, and came very close to being hit by a train themselves because at the time a block had yet to be placed on that line. In the underground environment the consequences of packed trains stalled in hot tunnels can also have severe consequences for others. Ever been on a Tube train containing 1,000 people in the summer stuck in a tunnel with no ventilation because there are no train movements and no traction current? Sorry, but exposing others to these risks *is* simply selfish.

Regarding physical barriers, I have seen incidents where people come out alive with crippling life-changing injuries (in the interest of decency I'm not going to go in to details), or who remain alive screaming in terrible pain for many minutes after the impact because the medical staff are unable to reach them. If that isn't enough of a barrier I don't know what is, maybe this point should be better publicised.

 

[transmanche]

If you knew anything about the mental state of people who (try to) commit suicide, you'd know that 'selfish' is a stupid word to use.

The fact is, it *is* selfish to go about it in a way which affects others. The individual's choice of actions has a massive effect those involved [...]

And this just demonstrates your ignorance of the situation.

You talk of an "individual's choice of actions" as if it were a rational, considered decision. You could not be further from the truth. Putting your feet on seats is selfish, not giving up your seat for someone less able to stand than you is selfish - these are deliberate acts. Attempting suicide is not selfish, but an irrational and desperate act.

Perhaps you could start educating yourself by reading the links I posted upthread, before embarrassing yourself further.

 

[bramling]

And this just demonstrates your ignorance of the situation.

You talk of an "individual's choice of actions" as if it were a rational, considered decision. You could not be further from the truth. Putting your feet on seats is selfish, not giving up your seat for someone less able to stand than you is selfish - these are deliberate acts. Attempting suicide is not selfish, but an irrational and desperate act.

Perhaps you could start educating yourself by reading the links I posted upthread, before embarrassing yourself further.

As it happens, as part of my role I have received considerable training in the field, as well as personally managing the resolution of 37 one unders, plus attending countless more in an assisting capacity. I have also been required to give evidence at coroner's court on occasions.

I note you have ignored my point about the effects on others. I can assure you in no uncertain terms, when 1000 people have been stuck in a boiling tunnel for over an hour (with traction current forcibly discharged because of the incident there is sometimes no way of moving a stalled train, and it can easily take over an hour to safely set up a detrainment), those on board tend to have little or no sympathy for the person responsible. On occasions it has been necessary for multiple persons to be taken to hospital suffering from heat exhaustion or other conditions. We once had a case of someone having a heart attack which the paramedic crew suggested would quite likely have been brought on by a panic attack through being stuck on a train for so long.

I know it is easy for those not directly involved to dismiss these factors in an act of sympathy towards the deceased, however these are real issues which have to be addressed, and issues which have a profound effect on others.

On the subject of root causes, as a society we should look at some of the reasons people attempt to take their life. A physical barrier does nothing to address the root cause of why someone has gone to a railway station and decided to try and take their life. As a society we seem slower to deal with this issue, and like other issues it is the railway which has to pick up the pieces at the end of what is often a long list of failings.