Could the Night Scotsman ever be brought back?

[jopsuk]

The Accountants are the main one...as others have said, not very cost effective to have specialist stock working once every 24 hrs carrying a handful of passengers. Look at the Highland sleeper....it needs 1x90 and 3x67s to transport 100-150 people! How many crew involved compared to a day train?

It is more than that- there's also another 90 used to bring the stock into Euston/take the stock to Wembley.

I'm sure I've seen on here a run down of all the loco movements and driver changes required each night to run the sleeper service- it is really quite intensive

 

[Lee_Again]

A couple of ideas for the sleepers.

First, I would run them all from Waterloo International, inlcuding the West Country services. They could all leave within 30 mins of each other allowing for efficient use of facilites. Equally, arrival times could be spread so that you don't have 100 people all looking for the showers at the same time. And those that wish to 'sleep in' can do so until 9ish becuase there is no pressure to move the trains.

I'd also run them via Birmingham or Crew or Manchester so that the midlands/north can benefit. I'd also have a service coming from Wales/Cornwall that meets with the northbound fleet to allow passengers to change services. The various services all head north at midnight(ish).

And the other great sleeper problem - what to do in the day time?
Well, I'd invest in new seats. They would be like the Business Class seats you find in a plane. They are individual and convert to a flat bed. Why not run a service or two from Waterloo to Edinburgh/Aberdeen/Inverness/Glasgow during the day using this stock. Rather like a plane, meals can be served, work can be done, and best of all they're being used. So long as they arrive before the evening return journey it's all good.

And if 'seated' passengers did have a chair/bed with a table then there is scope to provide a decent meal and proper breakfast. All excellent revenue opportunities.

Plenty of other ideas but these seem achievable within the budgets that are likely available.

BTW - In my perfect world the sleepers would be similar to voyagers allowing for flexible use. The engine vibration thing is not that bad if running at 80mph. Each cabin would have wi-fi access with a slightly wider bed but otherwise unchanged. Adding private bathrooms is just too expensive. The sink would remain. I'd maybe add a screen (like in flight entertainment) with PPV films. Another revenue opportunity.

 

[YorkshireBear]

On that information i would suggest MU sleepers ordered for the whole country. IE an order for the SW, Scotland and any other potential flows. Reduce staff costs and we could make it less loss making.

 

[HSTEd]

Frankly running an Edinburgh sleeper out of KGX doesn't really consume that many more resources than portion working from the Euston sleeper.

You could run a push pull set to Edinburgh with a single locomotive and no need for time consuming and costly shunt moves.

You could sit in Newcastle till 0630 and then head north to Edinburgh to get semi serviceable arrival times at both destinations.

 

[Chrisgr31]

In the interests of research if I want to be in Edinburgh for a meeting at 9am on 12th Feb and am starting in London I my options are: -

Seat on sleeper from £43.50
Couchette on sleeper from £86.10
Easy Jet from Gatwick in theory £34 but cant get to Edinburgh Airport until 9.50
BA 6.35 from Heathrow £65
BA 07.00 from City £99

Quick look on Late Rooms indicates that I can get a room in a hotel on 11th for £39 but corporate hotels are more like £60.


As I mentioned earlier the problem with flying is getting back, and whether you can get back to your start airport (if you drove there) or whether you can get there at a reasonable time.

I did look at this (other than the sleeper option) once, and found the only way I could get to the meeting I was going to was to go up by train, and fly back, but I only had a few hours in Edinburgh so it was quite fraught due to fear of delays.

 

[Lee_Again]

In the interests of research if I want to be in Edinburgh for a meeting at 9am on 12th Feb and am starting in London I my options are: -

Seat on sleeper from £43.50
Couchette on sleeper from £86.10
Easy Jet from Gatwick in theory £34 but cant get to Edinburgh Airport until 9.50
BA 6.35 from Heathrow £65
BA 07.00 from City £99

Quick look on Late Rooms indicates that I can get a room in a hotel on 11th for £39 but corporate hotels are more like £60.


As I mentioned earlier the problem with flying is getting back, and whether you can get back to your start airport (if you drove there) or whether you can get there at a reasonable time.

I did look at this (other than the sleeper option) once, and found the only way I could get to the meeting I was going to was to go up by train, and fly back, but I only had a few hours in Edinburgh so it was quite fraught due to fear of delays.

And don't forget that to make those flights you have to be at the airport at least an hour before. And then there's the cost of parking or taxis. I travel to Glasgow quite frequently and often travel on a Sunday evening from Heathrow. And £60 for a hotel? NOt sure about that. My employer is generous but even so.

Edinburgh is far easier for me so would likely go by train. The extra hour to Glasgow gives the plane the nod (but only just).

I've said before but where is my 05.00 from King's Cross, 05.19 Stevenage (for M25...ok, me !!!) 07:40 Newcastle, 09.00 Edinburgh? A £200 First Class return with free breakfast and dinner (with a fully-flexible return) would be a real alternative to the plane/hotel/sleep option. Also throw in the free wi-fi and working opportuties that the train provides and it's a potential game-changer (sorry - I hate that term too but is does work here).

 

[ainsworth74]

First, I would run them all from Waterloo International, inlcuding the West Country services. And those that wish to 'sleep in' can do so until 9ish becuase there is no pressure to move the trains.

As Waterloo International is being added onto Waterloo itself it will not be possible for them to sit around until 9ish as they would need to get straight out of the way. Indeed I'd suggest they'd be less able to sit around at Waterloo Internation than they do at Paddington/Euston!

 

[D6975]

Why the comments about KX not taking a 16 coach train?

The WCML service to Edinburgh is only load 8, the other 8 go to Glasgow.
Even adding some coaches to be dropped off at Newcastle, it still wouldn't be load 16.

 

[ainsworth74]

It's run as one train and splits at Carstairs into two trains of eight coaches each, hence it's sixteen off of Euston.

 

[D6975]

It's run as one train and splits at Carstairs into two trains of eight coaches each, hence it's sixteen off of Euston.

Exactly - that's my point. It's only load 16 because it goes up to Carstairs with the GLC portion. It would only be the EDB portion (plus any potential NCL portion to be dropped off) that would run from the Cross, not the entire train, so why the comments about platform lengths at the Cross not handling 16 coaches. Even with a NCL portion it's only going to be about load 12.

It's a general thing whenever changes to services are mentioned that people tend to think rather rigidly. (it's 16 now so it will always be so) Any recast of the sleepers could (probably would) change the lengths/consists of the trains. Just because they're load 16 now doesn't mean they have to stay that way.

If the WCML works do temporarily move the sleepers to another London terminus, then the matter of train length will have to be addressed however. It won't be possible to retain the load 16 configuration. It may even mean 3 trains in each direction instead of 2, or even splitting/joining at say, Peterborough to reduce crewing.

 

[Lee_Again]

Exactly - that's my point. It's only load 16 because it goes up to Carstairs with the GLC portion. It would only be the EDB portion (plus any potential NCL portion to be dropped off) that would run from the Cross, not the entire train, so why the comments about platform lengths at the Cross not handling 16 coaches. Even with a NCL portion it's only going to be about load 12.

It's a general thing whenever changes to services are mentioned that people tend to think rather rigidly. (it's 16 now so it will always be so) Any recast of the sleepers could (probably would) change the lengths/consists of the trains. Just because they're load 16 now doesn't mean they have to stay that way.

If the WCML works do temporarily move the sleepers to another London terminus, then the matter of train length will have to be addressed however. It won't be possible to retain the load 16 configuration. It may even mean 3 trains in each direction instead of 2, or even splitting/joining at say, Peterborough to reduce crewing.

There'll never be another sleeper destination south of Scotland for Northbound services. Newcastle is only 3 hours away. Carlilse is similar. If the market existed it is far easier and cheaper to add early morning services.

The main reason for the 'load 16' is that only a single loco is required. 16 also happens to be the platform length at Euston. At present we send 32 coaches north with 2 locos. Why send smaller batches with more locos?

 

[Norther Monkey]

Running sleepers up the East Coast would open up new (or perhaps resurrect old) pick up points for those wanting to reach the north of Scotland. As has been regularly stated London has reasonably good air links to Aberdeen and Inverness, but for those from say Grantham, Doncaster, York air links are 2-3 hours drive away (plus parking check in time etc). A sleeper could represent the most time effective way of travel between these areas and the north of Scotland. At the moment the only the only choice is to travel the whole of the following day - or to traipse accross country to Crewe or Preston, incurring more cost in the process.

 

[route:oxford]

I sleep fine on DMUs so as long as they take reasonable steps to minimise noise then i don't see a problem.

Definitely no worse than sleeping on a boeing or Airbus.

 

[HSTEd]

The main reason for the 'load 16' is that only a single loco is required. 16 also happens to be the platform length at Euston. At present we send 32 coaches north with 2 locos. Why send smaller batches with more locos?

Plus all the locos needed for the shunt moves and moving the stock around and getting it out of the platforms at the terminals again.

If the lowland sleepers ran seperately you would need an extra Class 90 for the 'backhaul' portion of the journey but you would not need all the locomotives required for the shunts and so on since it could run as a fixed push pull formation directly to it's destination.

Two Class 90s for the entire journey instead of One Class 90 for the whole journey, a Class 90 for Carstairs-Edinburgh, two more electrics to get the portions back out of the platform again and numerous other pieces of stock.

Push pull is far easier to implement with a fixed formation since you can just stick a DVT on the far end.

You could also add another seating vehicle since the platform length at King's Cross is at least capable of 9+DVT+Loco since they do it every day.
If you ran it from Euston you could stick eight additional seating vehicles because you would have a Load16 capable platform to work with.

EDIT:

Platform 0 at King's Cross is rated for 305m.

That means it will fit a DVT, a Class 90 and 11 Mark 3s.

That is six sleeper vehicles, a lounge vehicle and four seating vehicles, with luggage storage being available in the DVT.
That is rather more seating than is available now and would probably improve the economics of service.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think some of the suggestions made might be for if Scotland goes to Multiple Units.

 

[HSTEd]

If we are going to have new stock available perhaps having wide gangways would be a good idea so that we can eliminate one of the vestibules in each vehicle, so that you only have one per vehicle.

Or we could even go with one per two vehicles, since our passenger density per unit length is far lower.

 

[NotATrainspott]

If we are going to have new stock available perhaps having wide gangways would be a good idea so that we can eliminate one of the vestibules in each vehicle, so that you only have one per vehicle.

Or we could even go with one per two vehicles, since our passenger density per unit length is far lower.

The Nightstar stock was designed precisely that way, as are most high-speed trains (including Eurostar).

 

[Peter Mugridge]

On that information i would suggest MU sleepers ordered for the whole country. IE an order for the SW, Scotland and any other potential flows. Reduce staff costs and we could make it less loss making.

A bit like this, then?

http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/files/documents/rail/rail2014/individuals/Mugridge, Peter.pdf

Sleeper services, in their current
format, are a very labour-intensive
operation. This is especially true of the
‘Caledonian Sleeper’, where rakes are
split and joined to serve different destinations
from one service.
At Carstairs, the Lowland Sleeper from...

( several pages of text )

 

[flymo]

View attachment 17107It was a crying shame to loss all the night sleepers on the east coast
here a couple of timetables I found which may be a bit of interest.

I thought that looked familiar, I remember making those spreadsheets back in 2009..

Also an ECML only version...

 

[infobleep]

Ultimately there are several reasons why the sleeper network is now a shadow of its 1970s/80s self.

The Accountants are the main one...as others have said, not very cost effective to have specialist stock working once every 24 hrs carrying a handful of passengers. Look at the Highland sleeper....it needs 1x90 and 3x67s to transport 100-150 people! How many crew involved compared to a day train? Without the "Scottish Lobby" the sleepers wouldn't be running. Harsh but true.

Better, faster day services ie earlier and later departures.

Low cost airlines. Flying might not be for everyone, but on the longer runs like INV or ABN to London it's undeniably faster.

Budget hotels and ease of access to book online...

Demographic changes. We now live in a 24 hr society. We didn't in the 1970s. Business people now don't think twice about getting up early to catch the 0600 to Euston....

Let's face it, the new Scottish sleeper franchise is only happening for political reasons. Makes a refreshing change, politicians putting the railways' interests before straight profit!!

The problem I face is getting to London early enough to catch the early train. I could fly but I don't drive and some flights leave too early for the first train out from Guildford, if you include the waiting around in advance time at the Airport.

Yes there are budget hotels but the cost of a train ticket or flight ticket and a budget hotel is more than the sleeper service. I guess that is because they are part-funded. Also I don't need to take time off work to take the sleeper service. I can go after work.

With a flight if I went after work, I'd probably arrive at my destination rather late. Let's say the airport is outside the city, how easy is it to get into the City and then across to the budget hotel at night? In this particular case I'm referring to Glasgow. I've not flown to Glasgow myself. However when given the option once from Gatwick, the flight time I came across was too early for my train.

 

[Holly]

Isn't it obvious that any new rolling stock needs to be built so that the bunks somehow convert into seating for daytime use?

To keep costs down the most obvious configuration, for standard class, being doorless bays that have four bunks but reconfigure into two couches. With a policy of "bring your own sleeping bag" (or buy one from the shop on the train if you wish). That's a lot cheaper than providing bedding would be and more in line with the modern way of life.

With, if you like, a limited number of super first class cabins at outrageous prices but with all mod cons for the wealthy.

 

[transmanche]

To keep costs down the most obvious configuration, for standard class, being doorless bays that have four bunks but reconfigure into two couches. With a policy of "bring your own sleeping bag" (or buy one from the shop on the train if you wish). That's a lot cheaper than providing bedding would be and more in line with the modern way of life.

So more of a couchette than a sleeping car?

 

[Peter Sarf]

I have found the sleeper gives me a better nights sleep than setting off to the airport at silly o'clock. I live in Croydon so Gatwick and even Heathrow are not too inconvenient but none the less flying is an ordeal.

I think running the sleepers as fixed formations and push pull might be economic but will the jolts when the loco is at the rear be more obvious on a sleeper compared to a day train ?.

I think a mix of seated, seated-bed, 2nd class compartment and 1st class compartment with a shower might be attractive. But the current stock is flexible in that first class is merely the top bunk folded away.

Its also obvious no one is trying to market the sleeper services. Rightly or wrongly they are just letting them die out.

 

[IanXC]

I think running the sleepers as fixed formations and push pull might be economic but will the jolts when the loco is at the rear be more obvious on a sleeper compared to a day train?

I'm inclined to think any use of push-pull with DVTs is likely to be solely to remove the extra locomotives currently required for shunting purposes. Given that the Mark 2 brake vehicles in the ScotRail sleepers aren't going to last forever this seems like an option for part of that requirement.

Quite how such shunting and ECS moves could be organised to reduce the shunting moves I'm not sure (other than at Edinburgh!)

 

[Mainliner]

When the sleeper service to Newcastle was stopped it was suggested that passengers could double back from Edinburgh. I've done that once and arrived at Newcastle for a morning of meetings, then got an afternoon train back to London.
I find that sleepers are a great way to travel for business.Leave home mid evening, arrive Scotland in time for shower & breakfast, day of meetings, relaxing evening somewhere then sleeper home.

Agreed, and I've also done the opposite - gone up from Newcastle to Edinburgh at night and caught the sleeper to Euston for an early morning meeting. Worked well, and total cost was less than normal train + hotel the night before.

 

[NotATrainspott]

For reference, here is what the Nightstar SLE layout is:

[From VIA Rail's website]

Since the only intercity stock we're building right now is the IEP, which has 26m long carriages compared to 23m for the Mk3/Mk4 (Nightstar) SLEs, it may allow more cabins per train length than is currently possible with the rakes today. If they're going to advertise the services more and make them more attractive, they're going to need more capacity. Additional paths would require more very expensive night drivers and they can't make the trains any longer than 400m because there aren't any platforms longer than that anywhere in the country. The Nightstar berths fold up to provide couches, effectively creating a low-capacity compartment stock service with en-suites for each compartment, so the stock might even be able to run limited day services up north.

EDIT:
A fully extended HS2 would make the Lowland sleepers look as ridiculous as a Leeds/York sleeper today. The same won't ever be true for the Highlands because the alternatives to overnight rail are nowhere near as strong, especially when HS2 destroys the Scotland-London air market.

 

[jopsuk]

I reckon, once HS2 eventually makes it to Glasgow and Edinburgh, that if anything the Inverness & Aberdeen to London air market may get a slight boost (and opening up all those Heathrow & Gatwick slots will help...)

 

[NotATrainspott]

I reckon, once HS2 eventually makes it to Glasgow and Edinburgh, that if anything the Inverness & Aberdeen to London air market may get a slight boost (and opening up all those Heathrow & Gatwick slots will help...)

I suppose it is a possibility and it was something that was suggested as one of the major benefits for these places from HS2. However, I could also imagine that they're not going to increase the number of services dramatically because each flight would be run by tiny aircraft which aren't an efficient or profitable use of valuable landing slots at these airports. The price of these flights will only be able to go up with fuel costs whereas the sleepers won't go up anywhere near as much, so new rolling stock might not have problems attracting customers for several decades to come.

 

[HSTEd]

Wouldn't Post HS2 to Scotland times to Aberdeen come out at about 4hr30 or something?

That is started to eat away the justification for that particular branch of the sleeper too....

 

[Essexman]

One of the problesm with catching an early day train is the cost. Few cheap tickets so it's often cheaper to go up the night before and stay in a hotel. The sleeper allows you to leave late evening and arrive in time for 9am meetings. Even with HS2 it will need a 6am departure from London to get to Scotland for normal meeting times and the fare will almost certainly be very high.

The sleeper is a relaxed and civilised way to travel, and I find it very useful for both work and pleasure.

I can use it for a days walking in the Highlands with just one day off work. By day trains that would take up three days. Similarly the sleeper makes a short break in the Highlands more viable than day trains which need a day each way to travel.