Could the Night Scotsman ever be brought back?

[infobleep]

Could the Night Scotsman ever be brought back? I like the name if nothing else.

 

[YorkshireBear]

For some of our younger audience. What was it?

Google is not very forthcoming.

 

[Leylandlad]

For some of our younger audience. What was it?

Google is not very forthcoming.

It was the sleeper from Kings Cross to Edinburgh, before all the Scottish sleepers switched to Euston. Last ran about mid 90s I think?

Major uproar in Newcastle and Berwick (Alan Beith MP in particular) about its demise.

 

[TBY-Paul]

For some of our younger audience. What was it?

Google is not very forthcoming.

I used Google images search (Night Scotsman poster).

It was a night train from Kings Cross to Scotland. It left Kings Cross at 10.25pm. That's the only information I've found so far, so I'm hoping other can furnish more details.

 

[43167]

It was the sleeper from Kings Cross to Edinburgh, before all the Scottish sleepers switched to Euston. Last ran about mid 90s I think?

Major uproar in Newcastle and Berwick (Alan Beith MP in particular) about its demise.

Late 80's. Not been Sleepers out of Kings Cross since just before full electrification.

 

[Leylandlad]

In the diverse, exciting days of BR, most of the sleepers had names

Night Scotsmen - Kings Cross-Edinburgh
Night Aberdonian - Kings Cross-Aberdeen
Night Limited - Euston-Glasgow
Royal Highlander - Euston-Inverness/Fort William
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Late 80's. Not been Sleepers out of Kings Cross since just before full electrification.

Blimey, time flies! Didn't realise it was that long ago

Come to think of it, didn't BR justify the switch to Euston for the overnight electrification work...when everyone knew it was a cutback.

Strangely enough, the sleepers didn't go back to the ECML post electrification

 

[Dave1954]

[/ATTACH]It was a crying shame to loss all the night sleepers on the east coast
here a couple of timetables I found which may be a bit of interest.

 

[pennine]

There is something romantic about the sleeper train. Personaly I would love to see the sleeper back in its glory on the ECML, as I think the arrival and departure times are ideal.

However, the opposing side of this argument its that journey times are getting quicker.

But I think overall, time isn't the only factor. If I had to travel from where I live in the North East to London, I know what option I'd rather take!

 

[Leylandlad]

Good stuff Dave.

What date were those? Early 70's latest I reckon, the Fort William sleeper switched to Euston around WCML (North) electrification?

Great fun those old sleepers. There used to be sleepers to all sorts...Barrow, Stranraer, Holyhead, Glasgow via the G&SW, Liverpool/Manc - Euston (that looks silly now), Leeds - Kings X (likewise).

 

[RichmondCommu]

Could the Night Scotsman ever be brought back? I like the name if nothing else.

In all fairness I think people would rather fly. It's certainly quicker and probably cheaper. And you get to sleep in your own bed / not be thrown around by DBS.

 

[Dave1954]

Leyland lad , Sorry I never kept the captions for the dates but I should think early 70s and you could be right about the Fort William service transfering to Euston when the west coast electricfication finally reached Glasgow in 1974 .
dave1954.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Need to try the sleepers before they become extinct. Graduate soon and so should have a job and some money to try them. Newcastle as always seemed to me somewhere which could sustain a sleeper. Aberdeen/Inverness-Edinburgh-Newcastle-York-London KX. Then one up the West Coast. Fort Wiliam/Glasgow-Carlisle-Preston-Crewe-London Euston.

Once more electrification is done the London terminal can be interchanged between the two. Although i would be tempted to send the York one to Euston anyway just for simplicity.

 

[Poolie]

Steam man tho I was (am), I used to look in at Hartlepool on the way to work in the morning and see the Class 31/2 (Brush type 2/3's) on the sleeper from the deep south! Seems like yesterday

 

[RichmondCommu]

Need to try the sleepers before they become extinct. Graduate soon and so should have a job and some money to try them. Newcastle as always seemed to me somewhere which could sustain a sleeper. Aberdeen/Inverness-Edinburgh-Newcastle-York-London KX. Then one up the West Coast. Fort Wiliam/Glasgow-Carlisle-Preston-Crewe-London Euston.

Once more electrification is done the London terminal can be interchanged between the two. Although i would be tempted to send the York one to Euston anyway just for simplicity.

On that note it's a pity we don't have the loading guage for couchettes.

 

[YorkshireBear]

On that note it's a pity we don't have the loading guage for couchettes.

It is a pity but i dont think anyone should be subjected to my snoring and farting even at £1 each way. :P

 

[RichmondCommu]

It is a pity but i dont think anyone should be subjected to my snoring and farting even at £1 each way. :P

Well my dear wife Evie is high maintenance and even she put up with it on the SNCF last summer! However we were travelling 1st class which meant there were only four beds per compartment.

 

[Carlisle]

In the diverse, exciting days of BR, most of the sleepers had names

Night Scotsmen - Kings Cross-Edinburgh
Night Aberdonian - Kings Cross-Aberdeen
Night Limited - Euston-Glasgow
Royal Highlander - Euston-Inverness/Fort William
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Blimey, time flies! Didn't realise it was that long ago

Come to think of it, didn't BR justify the switch to Euston for the overnight electrification work...when everyone knew it was a cutback.

Strangely enough, the sleepers didn't go back to the ECML post electrification

I think I can recall BR saying at the time the main at least official reason anyway for moving the sleepers was the far better conditions at Euston station for waiting passengers but they may consider bringing them back to kings cross post electrification

 

[Condor7]

In all fairness I think people would rather fly. It's certainly quicker and probably cheaper. And you get to sleep in your own bed / not be thrown around by DBS.

If "people would rather fly" there would be no passengers on the 'Night Caledonian' between Euston and Scotland.

A short while ago Radio 4 did a program on the 'Night Caledonian' and interviewed numerous passengers asking them that same question, as to why they caught the train and not the plane, and there were a whole variety or reasons why they preferred the train.

Clearly there is a case for both.

 

[Butts]

If "people would rather fly" there would be no passengers on the 'Night Caledonian' between Euston and Scotland.

A short while ago Radio 4 did a program on the 'Night Caledonian' and interviewed numerous passengers asking them that same question, as to why they caught the train and not the plane, and there were a whole variety or reasons why they preferred the train.

Clearly there is a case for both.

But seemingly not a case for one from "both" Stations

 

[IanXC]

I do wonder whether when the further Kings Cross services go into Thameslink, and the Euston rebuild is underway, we'll see the sleepers switch to Kings Cross.

 

[RichmondCommu]

If "people would rather fly" there would be no passengers on the 'Night Caledonian' between Euston and Scotland.

A short while ago Radio 4 did a program on the 'Night Caledonian' and interviewed numerous passengers asking them that same question, as to why they caught the train and not the plane, and there were a whole variety or reasons why they preferred the train.

Clearly there is a case for both.

But how often is that train full? All those sleeper services that have been lost over the years simply because the demand is not there. And to be honest it’s the same across Europe.

 

[Welshman]

Going back to "The Night Scotsman" -

According to my 1962 timetable, it left Kings Cross at 11.35pm and had no publicised stops until Edinburgh Waverley, arriving 7.30am. It was comprised of first-class sleeping cars only, and there was a sleeping-car supplement of
40/-

Southbound, it left Waverley at 11.05pm, and was again advertised as non-stop to Kings Cross, arriving 6.48am.

The stock was unbalanced, for on the return it also conveyed a through coach [and sleeping accommodation] from Fort William, departing 5.45pm, but the non-sleeping coach was detached at Edinburgh, as it was sleepers only from then onwards. There's no mention of its being first class only on the southbound journey though.

Mention of the sleeper from Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston brought back a memory of using it once on my return to University in 1967. IIRC, it departed Piccadilly at 0030, and trundled down the WC Main line, arriving Euston about 0530, but we were allowed to stay on until about 0700. The time I used it, it was lightly-loaded, as I had a compartment to myself even though I had only a 2nd-class ticket!

 

[YorkshireBear]

I do wonder whether when the further Kings Cross services go into Thameslink, and the Euston rebuild is underway, we'll see the sleepers switch to Kings Cross.

Another good point. Not sure what the impact of the Euston rebuild will be on overnight capacity. I suppose they might want to do most of the work overnight. It would make sense to move them to Kings Cross. Just hope they are not removed by stealth.

 

[IanXC]

Another good point. Not sure what the impact of the Euston rebuild will be on overnight capacity. I suppose they might want to do most of the work overnight. It would make sense to move them to Kings Cross. Just hope they are not removed by stealth.

Indeed, although with a separate franchise it would seem to be on safe ground. Regarding Euston I was more thinking of the arriving sleeper wanting to be sat in the station in the morning peak - potentially with reduced numbers of platforms available.

 

[Holly]

There is something romantic about the sleeper train. Personaly I would love to see the sleeper back in its glory on the ECML, as I think the arrival and departure times are ideal. ...

In the day I found the overnight newspaper trains more romantic. They usually had one or two Mk1 corridor coaches and the rest of the train was parcel vans.

As I recall there was one that left Euston around midnight, stopped everywhere and reached Crewe around 5:30 am in good time for a cup of tea at the station cafe and catch the first stopper to Liverpool.
Perfectly romantic (and inexpensive sine qua non) ending to an evening with your loved one at a London theatre show.

Nothing remotely comparable available today. A day trip from the North to do a London museum and a theatre show was very possible 50 years ago, not now.

 

[deltic]

The short answer to the original question is no. It will be interesting to see the level of subsidy required to operate the new Scottish sleeper franchise - once that it is in the public domain I can see a lot of questions asked about its value for money. Once the present sleeper rolling stock is life expired I cant see it ever being replaced.

 

[Bill EWS]

In the case of speed, if I remember correctly, sleeper trains were restructed to 80mph . This was for both comfort and reasonable sleeping time on the shorter stopping places. As the distance hasn't changed since then if they kept to a similar speed today the same sort of running times would suffice. Speed isn't neccessary as long as the train departs and arrives at it's destination as booked. I used the Aberdeen-London sleeper in both directions for many years and as long as you got a good sleep you had most of the day to yourself when arriving. You did feel it if you didn't sleep long enough, which happened at times.

 

[route:oxford]

It would make sense to move them to Kings Cross. Just hope they are not removed by stealth.

Once electrification work is done... Wouldn't it be better to centralise everything in Paddington?

 

[Oswyntail]

.... Liverpool/Manc - Euston (that looks silly now), Leeds - Kings X (likewise).

Even now, I think there could be a market if done properly. If required in London for the start of the working day, from Ilkley the choice is to get up at silly-o-clock and drive to Leeds and be knackered for the rest of the day, or go down the night before and pay silly money for a hotel. If there was a sleeper, of the sort of quality around in the 80s, that left Leeds fairly late, and found somewhere in London to disgorge passengers at, say, 07:30, the supplement on the ticket could be quite substantial and still less than a hotel. And there is enough take-up of the early trains to suggest it could be a goer.

 

[D1009]

I believe the only London terminal other than Euston capable of taking the Caledonian sleepers at their current length, which is 16 x mostly 23m coaches, is Waterloo International.