Electrification & Rolling Stock Cascade Impact Review

[jopsuk]

I doubt SWT or LM would want just five five-car units any more than GA would. I reckon the extra carriages are most likely to be removed and stripped for spares.

 

[tbtc]

I suppose five coaches may suit the Liverpool - Birmingham LM service (which I think is only ever a single unit?)?

 

[Eagle]

But then you just transfer the problem of irregular train lengths to another operator.

SWT could probably handle it (it'd be the same length as a 458/5), but LM probably couldn't.

 

[jopsuk]

But then you just transfer the problem of irregular train lengths to another operator.

SWT could probably handle it (it'd be the same length as a 458/5), but LM probably couldn't.

SWT could sort of handle it, but it would be five units in a fleet of 127. They really wouldn't want that!

 

[northwichcat]

I suppose five coaches may suit the Liverpool - Birmingham LM service (which I think is only ever a single unit?)?

There is a booked 8 car working in the morning peak.

Also SDO would be required for 5 car units due to Winsford's platforms being so short - a 350 is longer than the platform but the layout of the doors allows the train to stop in a position where all the passenger doors can be used.

 

[chris_156401]

There aren't any booked 8-cars working on Birmingham-Liverpool services.
There is a Saturday A.M one in the new timetable from Crewe to Birmingham but that's it.

Both cabs on a 4-car 350 fit in the platform at Winsford, theres not a massive amount of spare room but the entire train is in the platform but no theres no chance of a 5-car stopping without SDO.

 

[pro4600]

Speaking of 360's, what will happen to Heathrow Connect's lot when Crossrail takes over their services? To GA? To The North? The dreaded microfleet? Nothing so far has been mentioned about 360's.

Would they fit the pan-Corby requirement when that part of mml gets wired?

 

[59CosG95]

Couldn't the extra coach simply be removed and added to the SWT 450/5s? If not how about the LM 350/2? (I imagine the /1 or /4 might have issues with 110mph running with an extra coach)

Agreed. If SWT want to become a 10-car railway, this seems like an attractively cheap option. Might have to wait until CR takes over before the 360s get turned from 5 to 4 cars, the residual cars get added to the 450/5s, and the 4-car 360s go elsewhere, most likely to GA to displace some BR EMUs. If they want to turn all 127 vehicles into 5-car units, 122 trailers will have to be built...and the chances of that happening now are very slim. They could be converted into postal units though, to supplement/replace the 325s

 

[joeykins82]

Would they fit the pan-Corby requirement when that part of mml gets wired?

They'll almost certainly want 110mph capability on the Corby services. Whether that's done via modifications to the 360s or a new stock order remains to be seen.

 

[Philip]

In the OP it was stated that three 185s would be kept for Barrow work - is this just speaking theoretically from the present situation or do TPE/new operator plan on running an hourly/bi-hourly service from Manchester?

I've said before but I think 158s would be better on the Cleethorpes service, these could be regularly doubled up without needing an extra guard or one portion of the train not having a guard, similar to the EMT arrangement on the Norwich services. Also pretty sure even a 2-coach 158 holds more standard seats than a 185 does.

 

[northwichcat]

In the OP it was stated that three 185s would be kept for Barrow work - is this just speaking theoretically from the present situation or do TPE/new operator plan on running an hourly/bi-hourly service from Manchester?

The OP includes a lot of speculation and states things that will certainly not happen like some Pacers being withdrawn this December.

 

[47802]

In the OP it was stated that three 185s would be kept for Barrow work - is this just speaking theoretically from the present situation or do TPE/new operator plan on running an hourly/bi-hourly service from Manchester?

I've said before but I think 158s would be better on the Cleethorpes service, these could be regularly doubled up without needing an extra guard or one portion of the train not having a guard, similar to the EMT arrangement on the Norwich services. Also pretty sure even a 2-coach 158 holds more standard seats than a 185 does.

Somehow I doubt that the original seating capacity of a 2 car 158 was 136 I think that may have changed slightly with recent refurb's but the standard capacity of a 185 is 154 plus if you worked these services as all standard class as you seem to be indicating you could stick at least another 20 standard class seats in a 185.

 

[Philip]

Somehow I doubt that the original seating capacity of a 2 car 158 was 136 I think that may have changed slightly with recent refurb's but the standard capacity of a 185 is 154 plus if you worked these services as all standard class as you seem to be indicating you could stick at least another 20 standard class seats in a 185.

I meant there are more standard seats in a 2-car 158 than there are standard seats in the current seating arrangement on 185s. Leeds to Nottingham seems a good route to use 185s on with potential for first class demand - in turn the 185s being deployed on this route would free up 5 or 6 158s for the above suggestion. The remaining 158s that are needed could be displaced off York-Blackpool for example, if 185s end up on that route (still not sure that they will mind).

 

[47802]

I meant there are more standard seats in a 2-car 158 than there are standard seats in the current seating arrangement on 185s. Leeds to Nottingham seems a good route to use 185s on with potential for first class demand - in turn the 185s being deployed on this route would free 5 or 6 158s for the above suggestion.

Well there are not as you can see from my figures, and why would TPX operating 185 on other routes choose 158 for another route and have a mixed fleet, plus I'm sure many would see a 185 to 158 as a backward step.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Why does Barrow need to stay with TPE, would it not be better with Northern? I hope some routes get swapped between the franchises.

 

[northwichcat]

I hope some routes get swapped between the franchises.

I think the Liverpool-Airport route should go to TPE given that the TPE EMUs will hopefully have good luggage provision and the 156s currently used don't have sufficient luggage space but does seem to attract some business travellers who may be put off by a commuter layout.

 

[Philip]

Well there are not as you can see from my figures, and why would TPX operating 185 on other routes choose 158 for another route and have a mixed fleet, plus I'm sure many would see a 185 to 158 as a backward step.

But my original point was that it would be better having units doubled up using 158s because of the revenue and safety aspects for passengers when the trains don't have end-gangway doors, unless 2 guards are deployed. Also I remember when 185s were rolled out some people on forums like this considered them a step backwards from the 158 because of the hard commuter layout replacing the softer intercity feel. Interior noise levels were also considered inferior. Personally I like the 185s but not sure everyone would see them as a step up to a refurbished 158.

 

[WatcherZero]

I think the Liverpool-Airport route should go to TPE given that the TPE EMUs will hopefully have good luggage provision and the 156s currently used don't have sufficient luggage space but does seem to attract some business travellers who may be put off by a commuter layout.

Last I heard backroom Merseyrail wanted that route as a quid pro quo for supporting Rail North, they thought it would project the 'Liverpool brand' to foreign arrivals and guarentee their economic links to Manchester Airport.

The other thought I had was that if there was stock procured for a future joint working Liverpool/Manchester to Scotland they dont neccesarily have to be the same length (8/4 workings being used down south), 7 20m carriages for the Manchester working and 5 carriages for the Liverpool working would give ample capacity while producing a combined length just less than a Pendolino, heck you might even be able to squueze in a 13th carriage dooming the project :P

 

[Class83]

I suspect that the North West electrification will be used as capacity enhancement with the units freed up used to strengthen elsewhere, any 142s which are withdrawn will be because they have actually got to a stage where the maintenance crews cant gaffer tape them back together. Once TPE North goes electric there is a better chance of scrapping them there should also start to be the potential for some 156s from Scotrail released by EGIP cascades about the same time.

How are the new units required to free up the 319s coming along? Or are there going to be Diesels under the wires in December?

 

[158722]

Since I put the original notes together, some hints have been made that the 153s (and presumably the 155s) are likely to get some level of disability access improvements (new bog or no bog!), hence could survive beyond the 2020 deadline. I would suggest that these 84 vehicles will be kept on to cope with ever increasing demand, but I'm still of the opinion that the entire fleet of 142-144 Pacers will be gone by the 2020 deadline.

 

[Class377/5]

How are the new units required to free up the 319s coming along? Or are there going to be Diesels under the wires in December?

Bombardier are a few weeks behind. 6x 319 will still be released by May (currently they could be cascaded away by April) as the 377/7 build is expected to be delivered by end of March.

First 387 should be built by Easter however.

 

[northwichcat]

Since I put the original notes together, some hints have been made that the 153s (and presumably the 155s) are likely to get some level of disability access improvements (new bog or no bog!), hence could survive beyond the 2020 deadline. I would suggest that these 84 vehicles will be kept on to cope with ever increasing demand, but I'm still of the opinion that the entire fleet of 142-144 Pacers will be gone by the 2020 deadline.

Porterbrook suggested their 153s would be first to be withdrawn (ahead of their 143s and 144s which they have looked at options of making complaint) while Angel Trains only have said there are no plans to keep their 142s in service beyond the end of 2019. Porterbrook are certainly progressing well with plans for making units accessible. Angel Trains may be as well but if they are then their plans haven't been made as public.

 

[Manchester77]

I guess the only way to make a 153 compliant and it be economically viable would be to remove the toilet all together or reform them back to 155s?

 

[northwichcat]

Bombardier are a few weeks behind. 6x 319 will still be released by May (currently they could be cascaded away by April) as the 377/7 build is expected to be delivered by end of March.

According to Northern Rail yesterday they have not confirmed the acquisition of any additional units yet.

A Tatton constituent has written to George Osborne regarding overcrowding on Northern Rail services and has been told Osborne is taking up the matter with Northern Rail, so they may get a more detailed and structured response as to how many extra carriages will be introduced and where they'll be utilised.
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I guess the only way to make a 153 compliant and it be economically viable would be to remove the toilet all together or reform them back to 155s?

Or make them centre carriages for some of the 156s? If there's 2 toilets on a 3 car train then only 1 toilet needs to be complaint.

 

[Manchester77]

Or make them centre carriages for some of the 156s? If there's 2 toilets on a 3 car train then only 1 toilet needs to be complaint.

Hm never thought of that before, only issue I could think of is the plug doors of the 153s not being compatible with the sliding doors of the 156s?

 

[transmanche]

Hm never thought of that before, only issue I could think of is the plug doors of the 153s not being compatible with the sliding doors of the 156s?

Isn't there an issue of some 153s suffering from a noticeable sag in the middle? Hence the reason why Porterbrook saying they'll be the first to go.

 

[Class377/5]

According to Northern Rail yesterday they have not confirmed the acquisition of any additional units yet.

A Tatton constituent has written to George Osborne regarding overcrowding on Northern Rail services and has been told Osborne is taking up the matter with Northern Rail, so they may get a more detailed and structured response as to how many extra carriages will be introduced and where they'll be utilised.

That's correct of Northern as discussions are supposed to be ongoing but regardless of what happens with Northern, the six 319s are being cascaded away from Thameslink within months.

 

[Silv1983]

Bombardier are a few weeks behind. 6x 319 will still be released by May (currently they could be cascaded away by April) as the 377/7 build is expected to be delivered by end of March.

First 387 should be built by Easter however.

I was told last friday that 4 of the 319s have been completed to concur with this.

 

[158722]

Porterbrook suggested their 153s would be first to be withdrawn (ahead of their 143s and 144s which they have looked at options of making complaint) while Angel Trains only have said there are no plans to keep their 142s in service beyond the end of 2019. Porterbrook are certainly progressing well with plans for making units accessible. Angel Trains may be as well but if they are then their plans haven't been made as public.

Indeed, I recall the Porterbrook comments about their 153s, however comments heard recently that some winter services on the Cornish branches are only viable with single 153s, hence FGW have been looking at making their units compliant - these being Porterbrook owned units.

If the frame 'sagging' issues apparent on many 153s are not terminal, I would certainly entertain the idea of them reverting to 2-car 155s with a single DDA toilet or even 3-car units, in the case of Northern (Bogless 155 with a DDA bog 153 inserted?), plus Anglia, LM and ATW loosing their units to FGW, EMT and NOR amongst the previously noted re-shuffles.

 

[Class377/5]

I was told last friday that 4 of the 319s have been completed to concur with this.

Er the last 319 was completed in 1990. Do you mean the 377/7? The first two were completed before xmas with 701 running around on the test track. 703/704 have been completed with 705-708 well under way.