Could the Night Scotsman ever be brought back?

[47802]

Even now, I think there could be a market if done properly. If required in London for the start of the working day, from Ilkley the choice is to get up at silly-o-clock and drive to Leeds and be knackered for the rest of the day, or go down the night before and pay silly money for a hotel. If there was a sleeper, of the sort of quality around in the 80s, that left Leeds fairly late, and found somewhere in London to disgorge passengers at, say, 07:30, the supplement on the ticket could be quite substantial and still less than a hotel. And there is enough take-up of the early trains to suggest it could be a goer.

Then again maybe not, sleepers are expensive to run I suspect if you charged a non subsidised rate they would be too expensive, while for those who want a bargain basement overnight service there are various coach services.

As for the Night Scotsman, what's the issue Edinburgh is served by the current service, and Newcastle has good daytime service with journey times under 3 hours on the main business trains, it 2014 not the 1970's

 

[Chrisgr31]

In all fairness I think people would rather fly. It's certainly quicker and probably cheaper. And you get to sleep in your own bed / not be thrown around by DBS.

To an extent its going to be cost dependent, and it also depends where was is going from/to. On the occasions I go to Scotland I check planes and trains, but not the sleeper. Problem I find with flights is that it is difficult to get a combination that suits especially back to the same as the departing airport (I will be going north from London).

Airports tend to be inconveniently located for my departure and arrival point, you need to get to them from the city centre. You also need to arrive early for security etc.

 

[D1009]

Airports tend to be inconveniently located for my departure and arrival point, you need to get to them from the city centre. You also need to arrive early for security etc.

Probably the main reason sleepers still exist in the UK.

 

[Essexman]

When the sleeper service to Newcastle was stopped it was suggested that passengers could double back from Edinburgh. I've done that once and arrived at Newcastle for a morning of meetings, then got an afternoon train back to London.
I find that sleepers are a great way to travel for business.Leave home mid evening, arrive Scotland in time for shower & breakfast, day of meetings, relaxing evening somewhere then sleeper home.

 

[deltic]

Probably the main reason sleepers still exist in the UK.

The only reason they exist is politics - they loose sheds loads of money on routes that are otherwise reasonably profitable

 

[YorkshireBear]

The only reason they exist is politics - they loose sheds loads of money on routes that are otherwise reasonably profitable

If we want to go by that logic best close most of the network.

 

[IanXC]

When the sleeper service to Newcastle was stopped it was suggested that passengers could double back from Edinburgh.

Map ZZ also includes routeings given in place of the East Coast sleeper. The DfT have recently approved the removal of these routes, although ATOC have not yet implemented the change as far as I know.

 

[crosscity]

In the day I found the overnight newspaper trains more romantic. They usually had one or two Mk1 corridor coaches and the rest of the train was parcel vans.

I agree with Holly here. After graduating in 1978 I didn't have money for sleepers or hotels, but did still have a Student Railcard. I needed to find a decent job and there was a reasonable network of night newspaper trains (plus some of the sleepers had seating coaches too) which allowed me to travel long distances overnight.

The timetable attachment provided by Dave1954 brings it all back. I needed to get from Halifax to Kirkcaldy for a morning interview and caught the 20:15 Kings Cross-Edinburgh newspaper train from York. There were few passengers, and so I had a Mark I compartment to myself in the carriage next to the engine - a Deltic. It was the most fantastic ride, you'd dim the lights, pull the blinds down and let the gently swaying train nudge yourself into and out of sleep. The distinctive roar of the Napier engines and the clickety-clack over pointwork were very soothing. Alright, Edinburgh Waverley at 5 o'clock on a cold October morning wasn't great, but the time soon passed and everything was open from about 6 o'clock so you could freshen up and get a bite to eat and prepare yourself for the day.

I also had interviews in London and Brighton where I caught the overnight train from Bradford to Kings Cross. Mark I compartments again, but invariably with a Class 47, but a similar soothing effect.

For those who didn't want to go via London, there was also a Glasgow-Plymouth sleeper with seating only coaches too.

It's a different world now with budget hotels, and peoples raised expectations, so I can't see it happening again. Besides which, the passenger revenue was probably small, and I can't see mail trains coming back with passenger accommodation.

Thanks to infobleep, Dave1954 and Holly for bringing it all back!

 

[Welshman]

If we want to go by that logic best close most of the network.

Sleepers may be very convenient for some, but they lose money by being parked in a siding for 12 hours or more each day. That is poor use of assets.
Compare that with a diesel unit shuttling up and down a branch line 15 times per day, or the intensity of use of the rolling stock on main lines such as the EC or WC.

 

[ANDYS]

Reading all this has brought back memories.

Sitting on Doncaster station on an all-nighter in the late 80's with the sleepers awaiting their paths north.

Posting a letter on a TPO just to get it stamped with the post stamp.

Travelling down to London St.Pancras on the mail train for the Royal wedding (Andrew and Fergie!!).

Never to be seen again and makes me feel very old!!!

 

[aelius]

But the sleepers were so useful (and the seating carriages). I regularly used the Barrow sleeper to London. And when a student in Newcastle, the seating carriages on the sleepers were a cheap way to get to London for a full day. There was even time to go to the theatre and get back. There were a choice of two routes - from Newcastle or from Sunderland on the Durham Coast.

Then there were stopped for electrification and never returned despite promises.

There was also the Glasgow/Edinburgh - West Country/South Coast(?) that split and combined at Birmingham.

All those journeys are now impossible.

But Europe still manages to run then and improve them-from cheap couchettes to expensive hotel trains.

 

[47802]

But the sleepers were so useful (and the seating carriages). I regularly used the Barrow sleeper to London. And when a student in Newcastle, the seating carriages on the sleepers were a cheap way to get to London for a full day. There was even time to go to the theatre and get back. There were a choice of two routes - from Newcastle or from Sunderland on the Durham Coast.

Then there were stopped for electrification and never returned despite promises.

There was also the Glasgow/Edinburgh - West Country/South Coast(?) that split and combined at Birmingham.

All those journeys are now impossible.

But Europe still manages to run then and improve them-from cheap couchettes to expensive hotel trains.

Yeh and how much money did they loose would you prefer the money spent on improved day time trains or a subsidy on sleepers?

As has already been commented there are budget Hotels in all major cities these days.

 

[Ze Random One]

I understood that the 2200 Kings Cross - Newcastle and 0445 Newcastle - Kings Cross Intercity services were added as part-compensation for the removal of the sleeper.

 

[transmanche]

A day trip from the North to do a London museum and a theatre show was very possible 50 years ago, not now.

Obviously it depends where in the north; but the 22:50 Euston to Manchester and 23:30 Kings Cross to Leeds allow some to do this. And I use the 22:00 Kings Cross to Newcastle fairly regularly.

During the 2012 Olympics many routes ran extra-late services. I had hoped this might tempt some TOCs to experiment with some extra-late services from London, even if only on a Friday night.

 

[Butts]

I think liberalisation of the UK Domestic Air Market sounded the death knell for Sleepers.

The advent of competition and hence lower fares and variety of routes means you can fly to Scotland today for less than it cost 30 years ago.

 

[harz99]

In the diverse, exciting days of BR, most of the sleepers had names

Night Scotsmen - Kings Cross-Edinburgh
Night Aberdonian - Kings Cross-Aberdeen
Night Limited - Euston-Glasgow
Royal Highlander - Euston-Inverness/Fort William

Not forgetting the Nightrider of course. I had a permit to travel on that between PBO and KGX when I used to work shifts in London. That was going into KGX at least until mid 1985, if not a bit later.

There was a period following the sleepers moving over to EUS when I had real problems with very early/very late shifts and relied on colleagues to swap shifts. During that time I can also remember electric 312 units appearing on the PBO-HIT shuttles in 1987, just prior to the full NSE electric service to KGX started with class 317 units and 312s on some peak trains.

So I guess the switch into Euston happened sometime from late 85 to mid 87?

 

[Aictos]

I believe the only London terminal other than Euston capable of taking the Caledonian sleepers at their current length, which is 16 x mostly 23m coaches, is Waterloo International.

I disagree, at the north end of Platform 1 at Paddington you've still got the former Motorail loading area - I guess you could rebuild part of that to extend Platform 1 so it can easily take a 2 x locos plus 16 x 23m coaches.

 

[Muzer]

Sleepers may be very convenient for some, but they lose money by being parked in a siding for 12 hours or more each day. That is poor use of assets.
Compare that with a diesel unit shuttling up and down a branch line 15 times per day, or the intensity of use of the rolling stock on main lines such as the EC or WC.

So just like the Cardiff to Holyhead train, or the Chiltern loco-hauled commuter train that isn't the silver train (the 17:50). There are a handful of examples of stock that aren't used much in the day. It surely can't cost that much to keep it running/stored to run on pre-existing infrastructure in comparison with the cost of keeping all the branch-line infrastructure running?


(I'm not saying close the branch lines, I'm saying close neither )

 

[Oliver]

I think liberalisation of the UK Domestic Air Market sounded the death knell for Sleepers.

The advent of competition and hence lower fares and variety of routes means you can fly to Scotland today for less than it cost 30 years ago.

As Edinburgh and Glasgow already have sleeper services from London the only real beneficiary of a new "Night Scotsman" would be Newcastle.

As the last day train from KX to Newcastle leaves at 22:00, and the first up train leaves Newcastle at 04:45 and arrives at 08:13, and there's a twice hourly service pretty much all day, with a journey time of around three hours, it's hard to see what benefit a sleeper on the route would bring.

 

[stuart]

Sleepers ... lose money by being parked in a siding for 12 hours or more each day. That is poor use of assets.

I agree! If one started with a blank sheet of paper, I would love to see a design for a sleeping cabin that could very quickly be converted into a private "day cabin" (bed becomes sofa etc.), a feature often offered on ferry services but so far not on the UK rail network. I could imagine paying a premium on first class fares for the opportunity of privacy (and the chance of a wee nap if required).

To be honest, the current stock is already life expired - if the sleeper wants to be taken seriously it needs cabins with private loos and showers to compete against the hotel market, not to mention the things we now take for granted on daytime services such as wifi and a few electric sockets.

I used to love the sleeper and use it regularly. Unfortunately I now need medical equipment for sleeping which requires a power socket, so unless or until there is some sensible refurbishment or replacement of the stock (the recent so-called refurbishment was a joke - they didn't even change the carpet, just painted the handrails green) I'm no longer able to use it.

I also agree with a comment made earlier that the finance to build new sleeper stock from scratch is not likely to be readily available. I think it would be an interesting design project to take the old Royal Mail EMUs (are they still mothballed somewhere?) strip them back to the shell and re-fit them for the sleeper market, at least for the Edinburgh/Glasgow routes where electrification exists.

 

[Whistler40145]

AFAIK platforms at KX aren't long enough for the current sleeper services, therefore if you want the Night Scotsman re-instated, it would have to be of reduced formation.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[sidmouth]

As Edinburgh and Glasgow already have sleeper services from London the only real beneficiary of a new "Night Scotsman" would be Newcastle.

Or those living in East Anglia wanting to get and overnight train to Scotland and not wanting to travel via London.

 

[Leylandlad]

Ultimately there are several reasons why the sleeper network is now a shadow of its 1970s/80s self.

The Accountants are the main one...as others have said, not very cost effective to have specialist stock working once every 24 hrs carrying a handful of passengers. Look at the Highland sleeper....it needs 1x90 and 3x67s to transport 100-150 people! How many crew involved compared to a day train? Without the "Scottish Lobby" the sleepers wouldn't be running. Harsh but true.

Better, faster day services ie earlier and later departures.

Low cost airlines. Flying might not be for everyone, but on the longer runs like INV or ABN to London it's undeniably faster.

Budget hotels and ease of access to book online...

Demographic changes. We now live in a 24 hr society. We didn't in the 1970s. Business people now don't think twice about getting up early to catch the 0600 to Euston....

Let's face it, the new Scottish sleeper franchise is only happening for political reasons. Makes a refreshing change, politicians putting the railways' interests before straight profit!!

 

[Helvellyn]

After the Sleeper services moved to Euston in the late 1980s, the five services were all named: -

* The Royal Highlander - Euston to Inverness
* The Night Aberdonian - Euston to Aberdeen
* The Night Caledonian - Euston to Glasgow (plus portion for Carlisle)
* The Night Scotsman - Euston to Edinburgh
* The West Highlander - Euston to Fort William

There were also: -

* The Night West Countryman - Glasgow/Edinburgh to Plymouth (plus portion for Bristol)
* The Night Scot - Plymouth (plus portion from Bristol) to Glasgow/Edinburgh
* The Night Riveria - Paddington to Penzance (plus portion for Plymouth)

 

[Johnuk123]

Or those living in East Anglia wanting to get and overnight train to Scotland and not wanting to travel via London.

Yes that's right I have that problem of having to travel to Kings Cross and then over to Euston just to travel back up the country.

 

[30907]

But Europe still manages to run then and improve them-from cheap couchettes to expensive hotel trains.

More accurately, overnight services are gradually disappearing (in Western Europe at least - Russia to W Europe seems to be going upmarket, which may be to do with "new money" there) - the most recent casualties are most of the Spanish hotel trains and the remnant of the Paris-Rome service, while the Amsterdam-Warsaw is struggling.

 

[route:oxford]

Budget hotels and ease of access to book online...

The most important element.

Less than 30 seconds gets me a 4* hotel from a major brand just off Kensington High Street for £60 per night tomorrow night.

At that price, if I were working in London for 2 days in a row, it's cheaper to stay overnight in London with 2 singles than to take 2 day-returns on the train from Oxford!

 

[anme]

As Edinburgh and Glasgow already have sleeper services from London the only real beneficiary of a new "Night Scotsman" would be Newcastle.

As the last day train from KX to Newcastle leaves at 22:00, and the first up train leaves Newcastle at 04:45 and arrives at 08:13, and there's a twice hourly service pretty much all day, with a journey time of around three hours, it's hard to see what benefit a sleeper on the route would bring.

Of course, this won't happen, but the benefit from Newcastle would be that you could arrive in London early in the morning having had a (in theory) good night's sleep, rather than having to get to Newcastle station by 4:45.

Of course, it doesn't really work in the other direction, as the stop at Newcastle would presumably be very early, so that the train arrived in Edinburgh at a reasonable time. And even going south the call at Newcastle would likely be rather late.

 

[NotATrainspott]

The Accountants are the main one...as others have said, not very cost effective to have specialist stock working once every 24 hrs carrying a handful of passengers. Look at the Highland sleeper....it needs 1x90 and 3x67s to transport 100-150 people! How many crew involved compared to a day train? Without the "Scottish Lobby" the sleepers wouldn't be running. Harsh but true.

Which is why I can't ever see us order any new LHCS sleeper stock. Not only because it wouldn't have the economies of scale of the numbers of day coaches we used to have but because it requires much more complicated diagramming and complicated movements in the middle of the night requiring many staff. Think of how much the drivers alone cost in the middle of the night when the Highland sleeper splits and joins in Edinburgh! If it's ever going to be replaced, they're going to be multiple units because they're all we build today for any passenger purpose.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I sleep fine on DMUs so as long as they take reasonable steps to minimise noise then i don't see a problem.