Virgin Trains to Shrewsbury

[The Planner]

Hardly going to be a money spinner at anytime. If I was Virgin I wouldn't even bother. Must be far more lucrative WC markets to Pursue.

Like I have previously commented, I personally don't believe it is about Shrewsbury, it is about the xx.33 paths from Euston.

Wouldn't it just be easier to forward one of the Euston to Birmingham trains towards Telford and Shrewsbury like in the olden days? After looking at and studying the timetable myself I can see it can be done.

Like Eagle has said, how? Doing it to the 18:23 from Euston and making it a Voyager means pushing the XC behind it at Wolves out, they won't accept that. I presume it would have to be a 5 car Voyager as well as you won't get a 10 car in the bays at Shrewsbury and if you are turning it around there it would have to sit in platform 4 for a while.

Unfortunately being a clever railway diagramming knowledge holder is somewhat irrelevant the Shropshire MP's have put a lot of political capital, personal effort into the campaign for restoration of direct services and with an election on the horizon in less than 18 months they want a tangible result to be able to claim credit for. They seem to have the Minister on side there will be a lot of pressure on NR regardless of what the timetable bods say.

That is all well and good and pressure may make NR cave in, but, if the service is a dog and causes delays which NR has to pay for the money will not appear out of thin air, that money will come out of future pots of cash for renewal and enhancements...
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If Virgin are not interested then let Chiltern operate it Via New Street Wolverhampton without restrictions.

Chiltern aren't interested in that, and again, where are the extra paths coming from for them to do it?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Like I have previously commented, I personally don't believe it is about Shrewsbury, it is about the xx.33 paths from Euston.



Like Eagle has said, how? Doing it to the 18:23 from Euston and making it a Voyager means pushing the XC behind it at Wolves out, they won't accept that. I presume it would have to be a 5 car Voyager as well as you won't get a 10 car in the bays at Shrewsbury and if you are turning it around there it would have to sit in platform 4 for a while.



That is all well and good and pressure may make NR cave in, but, if the service is a dog and causes delays which NR has to pay for the money will not appear out of thin air, that money will come out of future pots of cash for renewal and enhancements...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Chiltern aren't interested in that, and again, where are the extra paths coming from for them to do it?

Network Rail aren't up for re election next year though! the now defunct railway forum did an excellent map with the parliamentary constituencies on it overlaid with the rail network, they were coloured in as to the party colours with figures on majority included. Though this is probably another thread entirely.

Could arrive on Platform 3 and go down to Cotton Hill to turn round and come back in on 7 like BR did the bays are not a barrier.

 

[dk1]

Like I have previously commented, I personally don't believe it is about Shrewsbury, it is about the xx.33 paths from Euston.



Like Eagle has said, how? Doing it to the 18:23 from Euston and making it a Voyager means pushing the XC behind it at Wolves out, they won't accept that. I presume it would have to be a 5 car Voyager as well as you won't get a 10 car in the bays at Shrewsbury and if you are turning it around there it would have to sit in platform 4 for a while.



That is all well and good and pressure may make NR cave in, but, if the service is a dog and causes delays which NR has to pay for the money will not appear out of thin air, that money will come out of future pots of cash for renewal and enhancements...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Chiltern aren't interested in that, and again, where are the extra paths coming from for them to do it?

That's strange it shows me as quoting about extending the Wolves like the old days. It wasn't me that said that

 

[The Planner]

My fault, I was trying to multiple quote without doing multiple posts, will tweak it.

 

[dk1]

My fault, I was trying to multiple quote without doing multiple posts, will tweak it.

No problem mate. Just couldn't remember posting that.

 

[Zoidberg]

Back to square one, it seems.

From http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/2014/01/15/shropshires-direct-rail-link-to-london-is-scrapped/

Virgin Trains this afternoon scrapped the planned direct link from Shropshire to London, which was due to launch in May.

The company had planned to set up the service in May, but says following talks with Network Rail it is no longer viable.

Network Rail has previously offered two weekday off-peak daytime slots and two slots on Sundays which would have allowed for a return service between Shrewsbury and London Euston starting from the May 2014 timetable change.

However, Virgin said the proposed timings were “unattractive from a customer point of view”, with the result that the services would not have been economically viable.

Virgin spokesman Jon Crampton said: “Virgin Trains will therefore not be running them from this May as originally planned.

“Network Rail and Virgin Trains will continue working hard with industry partners and other stakeholders to create a service from December 2014 that will be of real benefit to the people of Shropshire and for those wishing to visit the area from other towns and cities.

I'm not surprised at Virgin's reasoning and decision.

 

[NickJ]

What a shambles of a situation!! Although I'm not surprised Virgin trains have refused to accept such unacceptable 'offpeak' paths!! It brings the rail industry into disrepute - The DFT have got a lot to answer for.

 

[transmanche]

Virgin Trains have issued a press release:

Virgin Trains and Network Rail have been working together to look at ways of providing an attractive daily service linking Shropshire with London to start in December 2014.

Network Rail has previously offered two weekday off-peak daytime slots and two slots on Sundays which would have allowed for a return service between Shrewsbury and London Euston starting from the May 2014 timetable change. However, the proposed timings were unattractive from a customer point of view, with the result that the services would not have been economically viable. Virgin Trains will therefore not be running them from this May as originally planned.

Network Rail and Virgin Trains will continue working hard with industry partners and other stakeholders to create a service from December 2014 that will be of real benefit to the people of Shropshire and for those wishing to visit the area from other towns and cities. A further announcement will be made once more details are available.

 

[Proud Salopian]

Oh, what as surprise. I (and some others on here) were right all along. Rubbish timetable -> no passenger demand -> cancelled. All deliberate IMO. Virgin don't really have any intention of running trains to Shrewsbury. And Network Rail couldn't care less either.

Frankly there are only two scenarios for the future:

1. As now. No London trains from Shrewsbury.

2. Electrification of Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton and regular London trains.

Seeing that Network Rail don't have any proper plans to electrify the route, we're not going to get those London trains.

 

[dvboy]

The paths offered were:

1133 dep Euston
1253 arr Stafford
1327 arr Telford
1334 arr Wellington
1348 arr Shrewsbury
1422 arr Crewe

1517 dep Crewe
1603 dep Shrewsbury
1617 dep Wellington
1624 dep Telford
1701 dep Stafford
1751 arr Milton Keynes
1832 arr Euston

 

[YorkshireBear]

I seriously cannot see the obsession with it having one. Why is it so essential? Middlesborough doesn't have one, Barnsley, Huddersfield, Barrow, Grimsby all don't have one why does it feel so left out.

Surely it would be far more worthwhile and easier!!!! to try and get more services to Birmingham. With an easy connection. The obsession of London Services really does wind me up.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I seriously cannot see the obsession with it having one. Why is it so essential? Middlesborough doesn't have one, Barnsley, Huddersfield, Barrow, Grimsby all don't have one why does it feel so left out.

Surely it would be far more worthwhile and easier!!!! to try and get more services to Birmingham. With an easy connection. The obsession of London Services really does wind me up.

Electrification is more important and then having an hourly service to Euston is as much about providing capacity for Shropshire to the West Midlands market with the bonus of through trains to London.

 

[MK Tom]

The paths offered were:

1133 dep Euston
1253 arr Stafford
1327 arr Telford
1334 arr Wellington
1348 arr Shrewsbury
1422 arr Crewe

1517 dep Crewe
1603 dep Shrewsbury
1617 dep Wellington
1624 dep Telford
1701 dep Stafford
1751 arr Milton Keynes
1832 arr Euston

Reversing at Wolverhampton without calling there?

 

[Eagle]

Nope, taking the Oxley chord that allows trains to go from Stafford to the Telford line directly.

 

[dvboy]

No need to reverse (a second time after Stafford), there is a line that connects avoiding Wolverhampton station.

 

[dannypye9999]

Why not just give it to ATW to operate? Didn't they once want to run it two hourly Aberystwyth to Euston by extending from Birmingham NEC to Euston?

 

[The Planner]

Impossible to do now and you will only get the Welsh contingent over excited bringing this one back up. It was Marylebone they would have gone to anyway.

 

[Welshman]

Speaking as a not too-over excited Welshman, why would it now be impossible to extend one or two, if not all, of the current ATW Aber-Birmingham services to and from Marylebone?

 

[The Planner]

No paths

 

[dannypye9999]

No paths

Extension from Birmingham to Euston via High Wycombe, the route is often used by virgin during engineering.

 

[Eagle]

the route is often used by virgin during engineering.

That's only made possible by massacring the Chiltern timetable.

 

[Squaddie]

I think that when rail planners say that there are no available paths for a proposed service we should take them at their word. Even I, with only a casual interest in the operation of the railways, am aware that many of our main lines are operating at or very close to capacity.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The Chiltern main line is rapidly filling up, especially when the Oxford services start. So going that way is a non-runner.

I can understand the frustration in Shropshire though. We're not talking about Barnsley or Middlesbrough, both of which are a handful of miles from a station with a London service. We're talking about the whole county, together with huge swathes of mid-Wales, without a decent rail service linking them to the capital. The change at Wolverhampton or Birmingham is OK, but it isn't ideal.

I genuinely wonder why Network Rail awarded them such appalling paths.

 

[Squaddie]

The Chiltern main line is rapidly filling up, especially when the Oxford services start. So going that way is a non-runner.

I can understand the frustration in Shropshire though. We're not talking about Barnsley or Middlesbrough, both of which are a handful of miles from a station with a London service. We're talking about the whole county, together with huge swathes of mid-Wales, without a decent rail service linking them to the capital. The change at Wolverhampton or Birmingham is OK, but it isn't ideal.

I genuinely wonder why Network Rail awarded them such appalling paths.

I think Wrexham & Shropshire proved beyond reasonable doubt that there is insufficient demand for a through service from Shropshire to London, and expecting every part of the country to have through trains is unrealistic. We should be concentrating on improving the connections from Shrewsbury and mid-Wales into the existing Virgin services from Wolverhampton.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I can understand the frustration in Shropshire though. We're not talking about Barnsley or Middlesbrough, both of which are a handful of miles from a station with a London service. We're talking about the whole county, together with huge swathes of mid-Wales, without a decent rail service linking them to the capital.

I could have sworn the capital of Wales was Cardiff

 

[dannypye9999]

I think Wrexham & Shropshire proved beyond reasonable doubt that there is insufficient demand for a through service from Shropshire to London, and expecting every part of the country to have through trains is unrealistic. We should be concentrating on improving the connections from Shrewsbury and mid-Wales into the existing Virgin services from Wolverhampton.

Wrexham and Shropshire was a poor service because it took 4 hours to reach London. People preferred changing at Wolverhampton and travelling hi-speed on the new modern pendolinos rather than slow diesel hauled mkII carriages the long way round. In my opinion the only way the Shrewsbury service will work is if its re-instated the same way as it was when Virgin left it. I cant help thinking if they had not had dropped it then it sure would have still existed today.

 

[The Planner]

I genuinely wonder why Network Rail awarded them such appalling paths.

It wasn't an appalling path, it was pretty clean. The issue is that it was the only one and not viable for them. If that path was part of a larger chunk of 3 or 4 return journeys they would have accepted it, I would bet money on that.

 

[0B00]

I do not believe NR or VT had any intention of running it.

The plans for a regular service in the days of loco hauled were, I am told by a former Virgin Trains planner, 'deliberatly' made not to work.

The token one train a day each way was dropped under the cloud that was Guage Corner Cracking - in fact the delays caused by GCC had no effect at all on the ability to run the one a day Salop.

As for WSMR, again the paths were rubbish in a deliberate attempt to undermine the service.

 

[Parallel]

I think the main problem here is it could work, if it stopped at many stations along the way, but then it'd take too long to do the whole route. It's frustrating because Shrewsbury has platforms that just seem like they are waiting to be used - They could make platform 3 the dedicated London services, and early morning services could originate from Chester or Crewe, as well as late night services terminating there. But because it's so far from London, it does mean that there would be some serious planning concerns to get around all other paths and diagrams. I don't think running it through to Aberystwyth is the best idea, as if used with the current 2 hourly services, it will probably end up woefully underused after Shrewsbury. It might be quite popular when the students are heading home at the end of term time though! Plus, Shrews is a good place for a train to terminate as it has many connections to South Wales, North Wales and Mid Wales, though I imagine people who were travelling to any of those places would just take services to Hereford, Chester and Wolverhampton/Birmingham anyway, so I can't see it happening...

 

[Squaddie]

Ideally, you'd have the hourly Wolverhampton trains extended to/from Shrewsbury, connecting seamlessly into and out of an hourly Cambrian service.

But I think that level service might be beyond the UK rail industry's capability.