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1st Class Excuses and discussion on 1st provision

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drbdrb

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Well you can't ever know for certain what is going on in other people's thought processes.

But at least you no longer have to wonder why some people might choose to sit in such seats ;)

No, I still have to wonder why someone get on a virtually empty train with no luggage, walks the length of the carriage, and then chooses to sit in a priority seat.

Happens everyday, with the same people.

Now they may all have hidden disabilities, but they are concealing them well.
 
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Tibbs

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No, I still have to wonder why someone get on a virtually empty train with no luggage, walks the length of the carriage, and then chooses to sit in a priority seat.

Happens everyday, with the same people.

Now they may all have hidden disabilities, but they are concealing them well.

The extra leg room? The ones on the Southern services are definitely further apart.
 

Squaddie

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No, I still have to wonder why someone get on a virtually empty train with no luggage, walks the length of the carriage, and then chooses to sit in a priority seat.
Priority seats are frequently the closest to the exits, the easiest to get into and out of, and often have superior legroom.

The chances of being asked to move for someone entitled to a priority seat are so slim that there is little risk in occupying one on a busy service.
 

trainophile

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Sometimes it's not all that obvious which are the priority seats, so someone absent-mindedly deciding where to sit will just go for the ones that appear more roomy. As Tibbs says, it is very noticeable on certain trains that this is the case. Especially as sometimes the non-priority seats look very cramped, so the comparison is obvious.
 

transmanche

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No, I still have to wonder why someone get on a virtually empty train with no luggage, walks the length of the carriage, and then chooses to sit in a priority seat.
Because they are next to the door? Because you'll only ever have one person sitting next to you? (Most people tend to opt for a seat that leaves a space next to them, if they are available.)

But to be honest, none of that matters. They are priority seats, meaning that those who are less able to stand have priority in using them. It doesn't mean that only people who are less able to stand can use them, merely that anyone using them should be prepared to give them up to someone less able to stand.
 

Tibbs

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If they are disabled in such a way as to require a seat, they are probably using some kind of walking aid. A blind person will generally have a white stick and/or a guide dog.

It's arguable whether "a bad back" or "a sore knee" is sufficient reason to qualify as disabled, unless medically certified. The term "disabled" has become very loose nowadays. If someone has a personality disorder they call themselves "disabled", but I wouldn't deem this adequate reason to have preferential treatment as regards needing a seat.

You also running the risk of insultng people, qf. offering a seat to a 'pregnant' lady who isn't, to an independent minded disabled person who would feel insulted that you judge them as unable to stand, or the decrepit looking older person (my grandfather was one of these looked frail but was tougher than old boots) who in fact could walk you off your feet and doesn't need your charity.

At the end of the day it comes down to a simple question - who are you to judge the capability of these people to sit or stand? Whether you mean to or not, by offering your seat to someone you're saying 'I don't think you're as capable as me.' Some people are very sensitive to these sorts of judgements.

As a very long time consumer of NHS services with a chronic health condition, we're strongly encouraged to take ownership of our illness. That means being vocal about your needs and how you want to be treated. It's up to you to ask, not for others to give. I have occasions when I'm unable to stand for long periods, however there's no way I'd fall into your judgement of someone who looks like they need help. In that situation, I would ask if people would mind if I sat down. Every time I've done so, someone has helped me out. It's up to you to vocalise your needs, not for you to stand there looking helpless until someone takes pity on you.

Times are changing when it comes to treating people with disabilities. We're no longer to be coddled or treated as 'different'. For example, I will stand for a woman wearing a 'Baby on Board' badge, as she's taken a positive step and identified that she would like to sit where possible. Aside from that I will wait to be asked.

I've also taken the decision not to stand for women on public transport. I used to until I realised that actually I was saying 'as a woman you're not as capable as me as a man, so please have my seat.' If I wouldn't give up the seat to a man of a similar age / build, then I won't do it for a woman.
 
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Tetchytyke

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Travelling on the northern line with a little one, I've had seats offered to me several times.

I'm perfectly capable of standing, I don't need to sit (although the little one benefits from it), but I'll still graciously accept the offer instead of bellyaching.

I can understand why someone who isn't pregnant would be offended at being offered a seat, but for anyone else why be rude? "Thanks for the offer, I'm good standing" is all that needs to be said.
 

ECML180

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Whether you mean to or not, by offering your seat to someone you're saying 'I don't think you're as capable as me.'

Not at all, on busy buses at school times, I've seen pupils give up seats for teachers boarding, the same with workers offering it to someone in a senior position to them. It's not always about capability, you can offer your seat as a mark of respect to someone.
 

drbdrb

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It's up to you to ask, not for others to give.

You do as you want.

If I see someone that looks like they could do with a seat, I will offer it to them, whether that is the latest PC view or not.
 

Wolfie

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are you actually suggesting that in the case presented this chap should not be "persuaded" to leave his seat, regardless of whether or not there is any compulsion, to allow someone clearly unwell to sit down? Really? What a fantastic world we live in. I'm all right jack.........:roll:

I agree and disagree with you. Should someone who is fit and well stand to allow someone who is unwell to sit? Hell yes! Should it be a "suited male" just because he is in a suit and is male? Hell no! I seriously doubt the man in question was occupying the only seat on the train, why for instance could a female who was fit and healthy have not stood up? "I'm all right Jill" is obviously ok!
 

Tibbs

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You do as you want.



If I see someone that looks like they could do with a seat, I will offer it to them, whether that is the latest PC view or not.


I guess if it makes you feel better about yourself, it doesn't matter how it makes them feel.

Another example of 'I'm alright, Jack' I guess...
 

trainophile

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I agree and disagree with you. Should someone who is fit and well stand to allow someone who is unwell to sit? Hell yes! Should it be a "suited male" just because he is in a suit and is male? Hell no! I seriously doubt the man in question was occupying the only seat on the train, why for instance could a female who was fit and healthy have not stood up? "I'm all right Jill" is obviously ok!

Quite. I detected a distinct hint of suitism in the original post tbh :lol:.

He may have been on his way to a business appointment and needed to do some work while he travelled, which would not be possible standing. Or even, heaven forbid, have had a pig of a day at the office and just needed to get his stress level down before getting home.

I feel very sorry for the guy in question, being picked on and disdained just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
 

Tibbs

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You do as you want.



If I see someone that looks like they could do with a seat, I will offer it to them, whether that is the latest PC view or not.


It's also not about being PC, that's an easy false flag like 'won't someone think of the children!?', 'it's 'elf & safety, innit' and 'terrorism'.

It's about humility and respect.

Humility to understand that, from a glance, you can't understand people's needs and respect not to take a paternalistic view of what someone else needs, and that just by asking someone you can be causing them disrespect.

Do you stand for women to sit? Did you in the past?
 

trainophile

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I think it is most ungracious to reply offensively to a genuine offer, even if you don't wish to accept it. "No thanks, I'm fine" with a smile will suffice.

Says more about the person being offered a seat than it does about the offerer imo. Some people will take offence where none is intended, just because they don't understand chivalry and would probably never think of making such a gesture themselves.
 

drbdrb

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It's also not about being PC, that's an easy false flag like 'won't someone think of the children!?', 'it's 'elf & safety, innit' and 'terrorism'.

Nonsense, it common courtesy.

If I am sat in a priority seat and see and elderly person get on who would have difficulty standing, am I going to wait until they ask me. Don't be silly.

Do you honestly think that on the crush loaded train last week the blind guy with a white stick was offended when offered a seat by a nearby passenger. I don't think so.

And if there is a particular reason that they do want to stand rather than sit, most people are capable of expressing a polite refusal.

Do you stand for women to sit?

I would never sit whilst a female I knew stood. Would you?
 

HowardGWR

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It's also not about being PC, that's an easy false flag like 'won't someone think of the children!?', 'it's 'elf & safety, innit' and 'terrorism'.

It's about humility and respect.

Humility to understand that, from a glance, you can't understand people's needs and respect not to take a paternalistic view of what someone else needs, and that just by asking someone you can be causing them disrespect.

Do you stand for women to sit? Did you in the past?

Why is the word 'disrespect' used. What's wrong with 'offence'? It's not only vocabulary where we differ, it's in a whole outlook. Not to offer a lady a seat when you are able is to me second nature. I am 68.

I stress I respect your viewpoint, but I feel it is misguided. I shall go to my grave that way - too late now!
 

Tibbs

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I think it is most ungracious to reply offensively to a genuine offer, even if you don't wish to accept it. "No thanks, I'm fine" with a smile will suffice.



Says more about the person being offered a seat than it does about the offerer imo. Some people will take offence where none is intended, just because they don't understand chivalry and would probably never think of making such a gesture themselves.


You can decline graciously but still feel like sh*t inside. It tends to only be the feminazis who get shirty about things like this.

Just bear in mind that a lot of disabled people are judged like this tens, hundreds of times every day. From talking to people it gets wearing after a while.


I don' think there's a website like it for disability, but check out everydaysexism.com. There are some terrible examples in there, but also a lot of things that a lot of people think are 'polite' or 'chivalrous'.
 

drbdrb

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I don' think there's a website like it for disability, but check out everydaysexism.com. There are some terrible examples in there, but also a lot of things that a lot of people think are 'polite' or 'chivalrous'.

If there are, they are well hidden amongst all the hundreds of examples that are being quoted where men are not at all 'polite' or 'chivalrous'.
 

Tibbs

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I would never sit whilst a female I knew stood. Would you?


We would discuss it if I knew her. It's likely we would take it in turns or I would sit as I'd be the least able to stand of the group. The vitally important point is that I'd do the same with the males in the group.

The question is - do you stand for women you don't know? I don't because I consider it sexist.
 

GatwickDepress

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I was once accused of abusing my "thin privilege" when I asked a teenage girl sitting next to me to stand up so I could move out of my seat.

Explain that one: At least sexism is legitimate. :|
 

trainophile

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I cannot comprehend the idea that a person who deserves and would probably appreciate a seat, whether due to disability or any other reason, becomes offended when one is offered. Apparently they don't wish it to be recognised that they are slightly less able-bodied than their fellow passengers.

Well I'm slightly less young, slightly less agile, and have slightly less staying power when standing on a moving train, than most of my travelling companions, and I don't care who knows it because it's a fact. I'm not being treated disparagingly if I'm offered a seat, it's just a kind thing to do.

Are these disabled folk too offended to claim disability benefits?
 

drbdrb

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With women I know, there would be no discussion. To sit whilst they stood would be unthinkable.

For women I didn't know. It would depend on the circumstances.

If I was stood and a seat came free, if there were women standing, I wouldn't sit down.

If I got to a busy commuter service in time to get a seat, and a non-disabled, non-elderly, non-pregnant woman jumped on at the last moment, would I stand, no.
 

TheKnightWho

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I was once accused of abusing my "thin privilege" when I asked a teenage girl sitting next to me to stand up so I could move out of my seat.

Explain that one: At least sexism is legitimate. :|

I suppose she thought you were inadvertently drawing attention to her size.

Discrimination is not just about the obvious cases, but the little things. In this case I'm inclined to think she's being unreasonable, though, as I imagine you'd've asked that of anyone...
 

shx

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I would never sit whilst a female I knew stood. Would you?
Definitely yes. Female emancipation isn't only about being allowed, but also being required the same.
Most of my female friends would feel insulted if given a seat for being female.

The question is - do you stand for women you don't know? I don't because I consider it sexist.
If being asked or the woman in question wears a baby badge, yes. If none of the former is the case, asking would be sexist, implying that she still needs some sort of paternal care.
 

TheKnightWho

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I cannot comprehend the idea that a person who deserves and would probably appreciate a seat, whether due to disability or any other reason, becomes offended when one is offered. Apparently they don't wish it to be recognised that they are slightly less able-bodied than their fellow passengers.

Well I'm slightly less young, slightly less agile, and have slightly less staying power when standing on a moving train, than most of my travelling companions, and I don't care who knows it because it's a fact. I'm not being treated disparagingly if I'm offered a seat, it's just a kind thing to do.

Are these disabled folk too offended to claim disability benefits?

Notice how much of your post concentrates on yourself. Your personal experiences do not speak for everyone.

Most of the time it's the assumptions made that irk them, rather than the actual reality of the situation.
 

trainophile

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Notice how much of your post concentrates on yourself. Your personal experiences do not speak for everyone.

Most of the time it's the assumptions made that irk them, rather than the actual reality of the situation.

I can only speak for myself. I thought this was a general discussion not an exam.
 
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