1st Class Excuses and discussion on 1st provision

[1e10]

So if you train managers do throw someone out of FC and they complain about your conduct, what happens?

 

[Nym]

So if you train managers do throw someone out of FC and they complain about your conduct, what happens?

*gets popcorn*

This can't be as good as what happened when I was sending people to Edgeware from Baker St when they wanted the next station...

 

[Rich McLean]

So if you train managers do throw someone out of FC and they complain about your conduct, what happens?

You get a "Please Explain".

If your manager finds your explanation to be reasonable, nothing will happen.

However, if a trend develops, then you could be looking at disciplinary action

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think West Ham are a first class joke of a football team? Does that count?


On a more serious note i literally heard the other day. 'My Dog ate it'..... Conductor just went you know what i aint heard that one before so you can have it.

(it was a £1 child fare so hardly worth it tbh...)

 

[Michael.Y]

Overheard the following once:

"I can't fit my case through the aisle to my (reserved) seat."

 

[Hartington]

BB21 and Hyphen
No, I think you're missing MY point. I'm not referring to declasified first. I'm going back to the wheelchair user placed in first by assistance staff even though he held a standard ticket. Effectively he was given a complimentary upgrade.

There was a time in my life when I worked for subsidiary of an airline and although my ticket said economy it wasn't unheard of to be upgraded. We had instructions in those circumstances to be unobtrusive and whilst we were expected to decline the free washbags we were also allowed to partake of the food offered. Since then I've been upgraded when flying on commercial tickets and, in those circumstances, I've had no restrictions placed upon me, I can take whatever is offered.

In my original post I accepted the airline world is NOT the same as the railway but if I am placed in first by an employee of the railway for any reason then unless that employee specifically asks or tells me to decline the food and drink I would accept it if offered.

 

[bb21]

If the wheelchair case is one you are talking about then I think it may be a grey area. He was certainly not explicitly given an upgrade so it is still quite different to the airline cases.

 

[Matt Taylor]

You get a "Please Explain".

If your manager finds your explanation to be reasonable, nothing will happen.

However, if a trend develops, then you could be looking at disciplinary action

Disciplinary action for what? I have this dreadful trend of checking tickets in FC immediately after leaving Waterloo and regularly chucking people with standard class tickets, still waiting for any disciplinary action though.

 

[Flamingo]

So if you train managers do throw someone out of FC and they complain about your conduct, what happens?

Some managers view the paperwork as hassle, and do their best to discourage their staff from causing paperwork.

If there are enough complaints, then you get sent on "Conflict Avoidance" or "Putting Customers First" course, with vauge threaths of "looking at your record".

 

[Greenback]

Some peop, or perhaps some businesses, are willing to pay a premium for more space, a better chance of a seat and so on. This provides revenue for the TOC. If more standard seats are provided by removing first class areas, I can't see how it won't lead to a reduction in revenue.

Presumably that revenue will have to be made up from elsewehere, and the only places I can see it coming from are fares or subsidies.

An alternative would be for government to fund additional standard class carriages, but as part of the network are already at capacity, and I can't see any money being available anyway, I think we can write that idea off!

 

[SWTH]

On a very late-running XC Voyager between Birmingham New Street and Cheltenham I used 1st Class despite only holding a standard class ticket as the standard class accommodation was packed full. However, I went and found the guard first to seek their permission and offer to pay for the upgrade. I think due to the relatively short distance involved and the combination of late-running and overcrowding, the guard allowed me to travel without paying extra.

Again on an XC Voyager, I was travelling from Truro to Birmingham New Street last year. Again, it was extremely busy (thanks to the previous train being cancelled) but this time I had booked an advance 1st ticket, with seat reservation. At Truro I had to turf a standard class ticket holder out of my seat (his excuse was 'well there's nowhere in the other coaches to sit), he then went and took up another 1st class seat until a passenger at Par had to get the guard to ask him to move.

By Bristol we had so many passengers on board that there were people sitting on the floor all the way down the aisle, by that stage the traincrew were no longer bothering to do ticket checks or offer refreshments. This did cause a bit of irritation for a few of the passengers who held 1st class tickets (I never ventured into the other carriages to see how crowded it was, but the end vestibule looked like a tube train at rush hour) but realistically there was nothing that could be done. If people have bought tickets they expect to be able to travel - and I'd hardly call sitting on the floor a 1st class experience.

 

[AndrewP]

How do you guys acting as RPIs etc manage to cope with the public? I know I couldn't. You have my respect.

Most times I travel in first class I see someone debating why they should be allowed in first and 9 times out of 10 you see them either move sheepishly to standard or out comes the ticket machine.

I have in the past knowingly gone in first with a standard ticket then asked for an upgrade when it was checked and paid the difference with no hassle - its not difficult to get into first class if you want to.

Final point - I wish people were nicer to customer facing staff no matter what industry they are in.

 

[Fincra5]

I thought it was free on Sunday...
Oh is this first class, I hadn't noticed (ignoring all the 1st class stickers and headrests)
Whats the difference? (reply: The price )

 

[Starmill]

If First Class is declassified then it is no longer First Class and you are not a First Class passenger automatically by sitting there, so no you cannot partake in the complimentary offer which is available to First Class passengers only.

If you get a complimentary upgrade on a flight, you are being upgraded to the status of a First Class passenger. First Class accommodation is not declassified. There is a world of difference - one is you (and only you) being upgraded, the other the accommodation being downgraded.

I'm with BB21 on this.

I think you're getting two matters quite confused. If you've been upgraded (on an airline) and the better meal was offered to me, I probably wouldn't turn it down. If I'd been allowed to sit in first on a standard ticket and something was offered, I'd probably just have a tea or something. If it wasn't offered, I'd just be happy with the extra leg room.

However, in the above example - some people had been "upgraded" (by first being declassified) but were supposedly demanding freebies which hadn't been offered. That's just a step too far.

I've been upgraded to First (or rather told: "Would you like to go and take any available seat in Coach G, please?" after checking my seat reservation) on a Pendoliono a few times. I queried with the first class hosts if I was expected not to take the snack box and tea when offered, but they said it really doesn't matter. Guess it might have been different if it was a train where they were serving real food though.

 

[Flamingo]

If somebody is in First Class on a std ticket and has availed themselves of the complementary items, simply moving to Std class is no longer an option on my trains. It's upgrade, off the train or BTP.

 

[Holly]

Isn't "Oh, it's a security issue" the excuse for everything but everything these days.

'I saw someone in the other carriage who looked like they might possibly be engaging in a suspicious activity that some bone idle bureaucrat somewhere might, in their dreams, consider to be a possible, though remote, security risk - so I came in here for my own safety until I find out how to report the "incident"'.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Worked a fairly typical 12 car this morning, busier towards the front than the back as always and no chance of doing a full ticket check of the whole train but I made a point of checking all three first class sections as the people who pay the extra for FC expect and are entitled to a higher level of service from me and today all three FC sections were utilised by only FC ticket holders.

The suggestion that removing FC and replacing it with standard seating is nonsense. Firstly FC is fully occupied on most peak services so there is a net gain of around 8 seats per unit which would still leave plenty of people standing (on today's evidence almost all standees could be accommodated with seats by travelling in the rear of the train if they wanted). Secondly it is the FC ticket holders who help subsidise standard fares for everybody else.

If you really want to increase capacity you need to look at new signalling, shorter sections, linear timetabling, reduced dwell times and longer platforms.

 

[Rich McLean]

Disciplinary action for what? I have this dreadful trend of checking tickets in FC immediately after leaving Waterloo and regularly chucking people with standard class tickets, still waiting for any disciplinary action though.

By trend I meant multiple complaints on a weekly basis

 

[455driver]

By trend I meant multiple complaints on a weekly basis

So a TM finding 10 people in 1st class in a week and kicked them all out would get into trouble would he?

I rather think he would get commended for doing his job properly.

 

[Tibbs]

Travel at a different time of day then, you decide to travel at the same time as everyone else!

If you want to travel "in the best possible way" then buy a 1st class ticket!

There are many things you could do but choose not to but insist its the railways problem and up to them to sort out, why dont you take some responsibility for your journey.

I love this sheep mentality.

How is it a sheep mentality? I assume by sheep you mean all people doing the same thing? At that point isn't that the people who sit in the right class since they're by far the majority?

And this isn't mumsnet, so you can't say something rude (commuters are sheep, again? *yawn*) and make it all ok with a smiley.

 

[DarloRich]

I would just remove first class entirely - if only to do away with the first class obsession on this board - and make "them" travel with "us"

There is an issue about the level of first class provision versus the level of second class provision which never seems to get addressed. How often do you see trains carting about empty first class air? Look at a Pendolino - there are about 27 first class coaches and 1 second class. It doesn't seem right.

 

[ECML180]

So a TM finding 10 people in 1st class in a week and kicked them all out would get into trouble would he?

I rather think he would get commended for doing his job properly.

I don't think being complained about is the same thing as removing non-first class passengers from first class. Yes, some may get annoyed by this and issue a complaint but surely it would not be enough to generate regular complaints. Should a train manager be unnecessarily rude, aggressive or unprofessional enough to get regular complains that would be an issue for management to look into.

I am thankful that most train managers I have come across would be unlikely to fall into the latter group and I would find it even less likely among members of this forum.

 

[Clip]

I would just remove first class entirely - if only to do away with the first class obsession on this board - and make "them" travel with "us"

There is an issue about the level of first class provision versus the level of second class provision which never seems to get addressed. How often do you see trains carting about empty first class air? Look at a Pendolino - there are about 27 first class coaches and 1 second class. It doesn't seem right.

Thats because you made it up.

 

[DarloRich]

Thats because you made it up.

it was for dramatic effect

 

[43074]

But surely every TOC is trying to run a business. It's not good business sense to rely on that fundamental choice of 'if you don't like it/find it too expensive then don't travel. Common sense? More like irony.

Well, exactly. In economics, rail travel at peak times is an example of inelastic demand, i.e. an increase in the price of tickets will cause a proportionately bigger increase in TOC revenue because people have to travel - other alternatives are there, but may not always be an option. So if TOCs can get away with raising (already expensive) peak fares, they will do so to maximise their revenue. On the other hand, at off-peak times, TOCs ought to be reducing fares to encourage people to travel because demand is more elastic - more sensitive to a change in the price of tickets, and if the price goes down the number of customers goes up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Increase supply proportionate to the increase in demand.

And how do you propose to do that? We already have full 12 car trains on many commuter routes, it is prohibitively expensive to clear everything for double deck trains and many platform lengths can not take more than 12 cars (or 240m). Increasing supply means running more trains, which simply we do not have the capacity for.

 

[Matt Taylor]

We tend to get more complaints about guards not chucking the freeloaders out than the other way round here in 3rd rail land. Always thought things were a bit different on the western.

 

[Flamingo]

Certain managers take the view that anything that causes them paperwork is a problem and needs to be actively discouraged...

 

[OLJR]

In economics, rail travel at peak times is an example of inelastic demand, i.e. an increase in the price of tickets will cause a proportionately bigger increase in TOC revenue because people have to travel

I disagree (on a service-specific but not network basis). I think that demand for service-specific on-peak rail travel may be "lumpy" in the face of large price increases.

So if the price of a special season ticket valid on that constrained 6pm departure (other season tickets not valid) goes up, say, 10% on current fares then the TOC will uplift more revenue on that service because passengers do not downsell to cheaper options in enough volume to offset the fare increase.

But if the price of that special season ticket goes up by, say, 200% then the TOC could well find revenue uplifted on that service falling because a big lump of passengers would simply not be able or willing to pay that fare (although plenty would).

 

[timbo58]

You're new here, aren't you?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Don't tell me - you travel Paddington to Reading?

Things haven't changed much have they?

Most FGW managers seem to think a TM who gets complaints sent in is a nuisance to them rather than actually checking to see why the complaints are coming in or indeed, if they are even justified.

A decent manager in such circumstances would investigate and if they found the complaints were unfounded would then ask the pertinent question 'why are my other staff NOT getting these complaints?'

I had plenty of regulars who thought it grossly unfair of me to skip checking some coaches and walk directly to F leaving Bristol, Paddington bound, like shooting (Bath/Chippenham) fish in a barrel frankly.
Likewise:
'Waking people up' only to find 50%+ without valid tickets (must make them sleepy - surely an insomnia cure missed by the medical profession?)

When double manning, keeping hidden in the buffet kitchen and suddenly appearing as soon as the platform was cleared leaving Paddington in reverse formation -the look of joy on the genuine 1st class punters faces was worth it alone!

 

[dcsprior]

Increase supply proportionate to the increase in demand.

Good good. That's a start.

Now please elaborate, on the basis that the railway obviously hasn't already thought about this.

And, remember, you're trying to keep fares down at the same time!

If supply can't be easily increased, how about this for an incentive to reduce peak-time demand:

If some of the people who currently work 9-5 five days a week instead worked 8:15-6 four days a week instead (the same number of hours over the week, if they're taking 1hr lunch each day) then there'd be fewer people travelling each day, and fewer of these would be travelling in the busiest time.

Something the industry could do to encourage this would be to have season which were invalid on one weekday/week for four-fifths of the normal price. In London, where transport is coordinated by TfL which is essentially part of local government, perhaps incentives could be offered to employers too - e.g. business rate reductions?