The Leigh Guided Busway construction project

[507 001]

Just out of curiosity, if it had been built as a Metrolink line, where could it have connected to the existing system?

Eccles?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just out of curiosity, if it had been built as a Metrolink line, where could it have connected to the existing system?

On another thread some time ago, I stated that it seemed that a Guided Busway was a rather strange solitary departure from the standard TfGM policy of extending the Manchester Metrolink system.

 

[WatcherZero]

The busway predates phase 3, was started at turn of the millenium but caught up in a couple of lenghy consultations and the rejection of the transport deal that would have originally funded it in the referendum.

 

[Bevan Price]

On the second point, any authority in Scotland cannot be used for comparison purposes as they have, to the best of my knowledge, no authority, legal or financial, in the affairs of these environs. You have to accept which official body in the area in question is responsible for official decision making.

You missed my point. I know Scotland has no authority in England. I was comparing the progressive pro-rail poilicy in Scotland with what we get in much of England, especially from some of the PTEs and the DfT.
(Recent electrification schemes excepted, rail policy in England has been pretty dire in my opinion.)

As for the original closure, in my opinion Barbara Castle & the Wilson government were weak in allowing the civil service to continue many of the Marples-Beeching closures. Towns as big as Leigh should never have been allowed to lose their rail services. It probably won't happen in any of our lifetimes, but I predict that one day Leigh (town centre) will regain a rail service whilst the misguided busway lies in crumbling ruins.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It probably won't happen in any of our lifetimes, but I predict that one day Leigh (town centre) will regain a rail service whilst the misguided busway lies in crumbling ruins.

I will respond with your aspirational hope that your proposed Leigh railway reopening project will be a joint celebratory event with the also hoped-for reopening of the Longridge and Preston Railway.

Then, in the words of early Victorian railway openings, we can retire and enjoy the delights of a cold collation.

 

[MK Tom]

Eccles?

The Eccles line is already extremely slow. I've always assumed end-on extensions from there would never happen for that reason.

 

[Polo Mint]

The guided busway is an albatross. It is taking up space on a busy road corridor and will not attract as many passengers as a railway line or a Metrolink tram.

A Metrolink line could begin from Manchester and through Salford before heading to Worsley, then down the same route the old railway line to Leigh, then on to Wigan. This Metrolink line would have been more useful than the East Manchester Line.

 

[WatcherZero]

They are building new road space for it, the only place where they are taking away a lane is where it runs parallel to the A6 and A572 near Swinton Park Golf Club.

 

[lancastrian]

Just out of curiosity, if it had been built as a Metrolink line, where could it have connected to the existing system?

Well there are a couple of possibilities, apart from the obvious one as an extension of Metrolink from Eccles. I would suggest these two options.

1. From Leigh, along the old route through Tyldesly and Ellenbrook, to a point where it can be diverted onto the spare trackbed of the ex L&Y Atherton line just before Walkden Station. There could then be an interchange station here and all the stations between Walkden and Salford Crescent could be closed and replaced with Metrolink stops. After a stop on the site of Pendleton Broad Street, the spare trackbed could be used to raise the line up to run along Broad Street, The Crescent and Chapel Street, under Salford Central along Bridge Street until it joins the second city crossing at Albert Square.

2. As above, but to continue along the LNWR trackbed through Roe Green, Worsley & Monton until having crossed Worsley Golf Course (old trackbed now used as a footpath it would cross down onto Monton Road and run through Eccles to link up with the Eccles line there.

I know that others will have their own ideas and will think that these are unworkable, but we are still going to have a guided busway which will be off any separate guided route about half way into Manchester. It will then be subject to all the traffic jams and chaos that using the ordinary bus routes will bring about.

My view if this, "If the answer to the question is a Guided Busway." Well it must be a very strange or stupid question in the first place.

The best answer in my opinion is the build a Leigh Parkway Station on the site of Kenyon Junction, there is plenty of space for a decent size carpark on the old goods yard, plus with the new local electric services between Manchester & Liverpool, it would be a much quicker service from Leigh to Manchester, Liverpool and even Wigan, of which is it supposed to be part of.

Just my personal views.

 

[radamfi]

It will then be subject to all the traffic jams and chaos that using the ordinary bus routes will bring about.

There will be a bus lane virtually the whole way into the city centre as part of the cross-city scheme.

 

[Manchester77]

This Metrolink line would have been more useful than the East Manchester Line.

are you serious? A line which will bring in lots of revenue thanks to events at the Etihad. Someone who lives opposite Edge Lane posts saying how full the trams are during the peak hours and off peak so yeah this lines useless

 

[yorksrob]

My view if this, "If the answer to the question is a Guided Busway." Well it must be a very strange or stupid question in the first place.

The best answer in my opinion is the build a Leigh Parkway Station on the site of Kenyon Junction, there is plenty of space for a decent size carpark on the old goods yard, plus with the new local electric services between Manchester & Liverpool, it would be a much quicker service from Leigh to Manchester, Liverpool and even Wigan, of which is it supposed to be part of.

Just my personal views.

I think that this, and all the other busway debacles, dates from the time when Alistair Darling and his chums felt that the railways outside London were carting around "fresh air"

 

[Polo Mint]

Well there are a couple of possibilities, apart from the obvious one as an extension of Metrolink from Eccles. I would suggest these two options.

1. From Leigh, along the old route through Tyldesly and Ellenbrook, to a point where it can be diverted onto the spare trackbed of the ex L&Y Atherton line just before Walkden Station. There could then be an interchange station here and all the stations between Walkden and Salford Crescent could be closed and replaced with Metrolink stops. After a stop on the site of Pendleton Broad Street, the spare trackbed could be used to raise the line up to run along Broad Street, The Crescent and Chapel Street, under Salford Central along Bridge Street until it joins the second city crossing at Albert Square.

2. As above, but to continue along the LNWR trackbed through Roe Green, Worsley & Monton until having crossed Worsley Golf Course (old trackbed now used as a footpath it would cross down onto Monton Road and run through Eccles to link up with the Eccles line there.

I know that others will have their own ideas and will think that these are unworkable, but we are still going to have a guided busway which will be off any separate guided route about half way into Manchester. It will then be subject to all the traffic jams and chaos that using the ordinary bus routes will bring about.

My view if this, "If the answer to the question is a Guided Busway." Well it must be a very strange or stupid question in the first place.

The best answer in my opinion is the build a Leigh Parkway Station on the site of Kenyon Junction, there is plenty of space for a decent size carpark on the old goods yard, plus with the new local electric services between Manchester & Liverpool, it would be a much quicker service from Leigh to Manchester, Liverpool and even Wigan, of which is it supposed to be part of.

Just my personal views.

I think idea number 1 is controversial. Are you suggesting converting the railway from Salford to Walkden to Metrolink? I can imagine many people would be irritated at transferring from a tram to a train, and perhaps paying more money.

Idea number 2 is sounds like a good idea, as does the idea of a Leigh Parkway Station.

Eventually may be the line could be extended from Leigh to Wigan.

are you serious? A line which will bring in lots of revenue thanks to events at the Etihad. Someone who lives opposite Edge Lane posts saying how full the trams are during the peak hours and off peak so yeah this lines useless

I never said that it was a bad idea, I would personally have liked to have seen the 'Leigh line' before the East Manchester line. The reasons I think this is because Leigh has no rail link, while Ashton does ( I respect Droylsden and other points do not). Also the congestion up the East Lancs Road and the M60 is truly chronic, I don't know what the congestion is like for Ashton New Road, but it will be tough to out do the current congestion being experienced in the Salford/Leigh areas. Not to mention the bus links tend to be better (faster and better frequency) up to Tameside.

 

[lancastrian]

I think idea number 1 is controversial. Are you suggesting converting the railway from Salford to Walkden to Metrolink? I can imagine many people would be irritated at transferring from a tram to a train, and perhaps paying more money.

Idea number 2 is sounds like a good idea, as does the idea of a Leigh Parkway Station.

Eventually may be the line could be extended from Leigh to Wigan.

No I was not suggesting converting the railway between Walkden and Salford to Metrolink, just using the now unused trackbed of the third and fourth lines. This route used to be four track between Windsor Bridge and Crows Nest Junctions, so there is spare double track capacity for Metrolink between Walkden and Salford. But it would need to be moved up onto the roads right after passing through the site of Pendleton Broad Street Station.

Plus I feel that if Walkden becomes the interchange station between Metrolink and the main rail system for this area, it would open up many travel opportunities.

Although I think that there needs to be a Metrolink route out to Leigh, certain a much better option that a Guided Busway. I still feel that a Leigh Parkway Station on the site of Kenyon Junction is the best quick and cheapest way of giving Leigh a rail service.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Although I think that there needs to be a Metrolink route out to Leigh, certain a much better option that a Guided Busway. I still feel that a Leigh Parkway Station on the site of Kenyon Junction is the best quick and cheapest way of giving Leigh a rail service.

Would TfGM, having gone ahead with the Leigh Guided Busway project with Balfour Beatty as main contractors, also consider a Manchester Metrolink linkage as so described in previous postings, in addition to it ? Will that look like too much money will have been spent in one particular peripheral area to the detriment of other areas that have had nothing to date in the way of Light Rail provision.

Middleton, in particular, looks to be a deserted "tram-route-free" island on some "Future Metrolink" light rail provision maps.

 

[edwin_m]

No I was not suggesting converting the railway between Walkden and Salford to Metrolink, just using the now unused trackbed of the third and fourth lines. This route used to be four track between Windsor Bridge and Crows Nest Junctions, so there is spare double track capacity for Metrolink between Walkden and Salford. But it would need to be moved up onto the roads right after passing through the site of Pendleton Broad Street Station.

Unfortunately not as easy as it sounds. Any link onto the disused formation would be west of the M60, but the M60 crossing of the railway only allows for two tracks. Because it is in the middle of a major motorway junction this actually comprises five bridges of various sizes, all of which would need replacing with longer spans at huge cost and disruption.

 

[lancastrian]

Unfortunately not as easy as it sounds. Any link onto the disused formation would be west of the M60, but the M60 crossing of the railway only allows for two tracks. Because it is in the middle of a major motorway junction this actually comprises five bridges of various sizes, all of which would need replacing with longer spans at huge cost and disruption.

Fair point. To be honest I was going from memory and had not considered the M60 bridges. However I am not surprised that they were not built to allow for potential re-quadrafying. Once again the blinkered, narrow minded, lack of foresight people at the DaFT strike again.

You are quite right that the cost and closure of the M60 to rebuild the bridges would be very expensive but that hasn't stop them doing similar things in the South East.

Oh dear, silly me again the South East gets money thrown at it to increase infrastructure capacity, but here in the 'wilds' of Lancashire we have to make do with the dregs they munificently allow us, unless of course it is to build a complete waste of time and money, such as a 'Guided Busway'

I apologize for my cynical view of London politics, but even with the electrification and such like we still get nowhere near the money spent here compared to the South East.

 

[Nym]

One could always just re-build it as a heavy rail line and put in provision for 25kV AC Electrification, allowing for 2tph Leigh and 2tph Wigan running via Walkden...?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

One could always just re-build it as a heavy rail line and put in provision for 25kV AC Electrification, allowing for 2tph Leigh and 2tph Wigan running via Walkden...?

Have you considered the railway line that Walkden railway station is situated upon, when discussing 25kV AC electrified lines ?

I would venture the line from Salford Crescent to Crow Nest junction would be more likely to be one for Tram-Train operation and this is not just my own personal opinion upon that particular matter.

 

[Robertj21a]

Fair point. To be honest I was going from memory and had not considered the M60 bridges. However I am not surprised that they were not built to allow for potential re-quadrafying. Once again the blinkered, narrow minded, lack of foresight people at the DaFT strike again.

You are quite right that the cost and closure of the M60 to rebuild the bridges would be very expensive but that hasn't stop them doing similar things in the South East.

Oh dear, silly me again the South East gets money thrown at it to increase infrastructure capacity, but here in the 'wilds' of Lancashire we have to make do with the dregs they munificently allow us, unless of course it is to build a complete waste of time and money, such as a 'Guided Busway'

I apologize for my cynical view of London politics, but even with the electrification and such like we still get nowhere near the money spent here compared to the South East.

But then you also have nothing like the demand that there is in London and the South East.

Robert

 

[simple simon]

But then you also have nothing like the demand that there is in London and the South East.

Robert

also dont have the banks / financial institutions and government politicians who want to look god on the global stage.

Its all about stroking their egos.

Simon

 

[Nym]

Have you considered the railway line that Walkden railway station is situated upon, when discussing 25kV AC electrified lines ?

I would venture the line from Salford Crescent to Crow Nest junction would be more likely to be one for Tram-Train operation and this is not just my own personal opinion upon that particular matter.

Considering how much of a pain in the backside dual electrification is; why not just stick with the NR standard between Manchester and Wigan; and if you need a changeover point or section of dual running, end this at Wallgate.

Dual running would be from Southport and Kirby and at Southport. Or a simple changeover at Wallgate.

There isn't really anywhere on Metrolink to plug into; and 2tph with peak extras would be close to ideal for Leigh IMO.

And yes I have considered it, along with the state of the signalling equipment on that line.

 

[lancastrian]

Have you considered the railway line that Walkden railway station is situated upon, when discussing 25kV AC electrified lines ?

I would venture the line from Salford Crescent to Crow Nest junction would be more likely to be one for Tram-Train operation and this is not just my own personal opinion upon that particular matter.

Hi Paul. I am sorry that I am going to have to disagree with you on this one. Within the next five years the routes at either end of the Atherton line will be electrified at 25k/v AC. So the sensible thing would be to electrify the Atherton line the same way. Plus is the electrification is continued through to Southport as it should be, it will reduce the amount of DMU's needed in the North West.

I will be very honest with you, I don't really see the benefit to Tram-Train. Light Rail, YES a very good concept and one that is proving itself all over the country, and I am sure even in Edinburgh, when they finally finish it. To me Tram-Train is the worst of both worlds, without the benefits of either.

With all the electrification going on in the North West do we really want to see one of the connecting lines being separated from the main network. I want to see the concept proved, which if they ever pull their fingers out in South Yorkshire we might see actually working instead of just a good idea.

I know that someone will point out that the Tyne & Wear Metro does just that between Pelaw and Sunderland, but how much other traffic is there on that line besides 1 or 2 TPH by Northern Rail?

I know that others will disagree with me, but we all have our opinions here, that is what makes this forum so interesting and informative.

 

[edwin_m]

I will be very honest with you, I don't really see the benefit to Tram-Train. Light Rail, YES a very good concept and one that is proving itself all over the country, and I am sure even in Edinburgh, when they finally finish it. To me Tram-Train is the worst of both worlds, without the benefits of either.

With all the electrification going on in the North West do we really want to see one of the connecting lines being separated from the main network.

You've made your views on tram-train very clear, but as you haven't answered the points in my previous post then I have to consider that your views are not based on proper evidence.

If you don't want to separate a connecting line from the main network for tram-train, why in your prevous post were you happy to see an even greater separation for light rail conversion?

 

[lancastrian]

You've made your views on tram-train very clear, but as you haven't answered the points in my previous post then I have to consider that your views are not based on proper evidence.

If you don't want to separate a connecting line from the main network for tram-train, why in your previous post were you happy to see an even greater separation for light rail conversion?

Hi Edwin. I have been back over the last few pages of posts but I am at a loss to know which points you mean. This is probably me missing what you have said. If you want to tell me which points you mean I will try and answer them. I will honestly admit that my views are precisely that. I have no engineering experience but I did work for the rail for quite a few years.

Concerning the Metro between Pelaw and Sunderland, which was used an example of Tram-Train even though the units are exactly the same as they were before the line was dual use.

I accept that it might seem that I have been inconsistent concerning my views on Heavy & Light Rail. The Atherton would be better as Heavy Rail, while other lines such as the Oldham & Rochdale seem to fit in well as Light Rail, simply because it was run as a local service and the Atherton carries service from beyond the route. I am not against some lines being converted to Light Rail, where it is beneficial to the City in question.

What I think that what is needed is good interchange facilities between the Heavy and Light Rail systems.

 

[Polo Mint]

I still think using the Manchester and Wigan Railway would have been the best option.

No I was not suggesting converting the railway between Walkden and Salford to Metrolink, just using the now unused trackbed of the third and fourth lines. This route used to be four track between Windsor Bridge and Crows Nest Junctions, so there is spare double track capacity for Metrolink between Walkden and Salford. But it would need to be moved up onto the roads right after passing through the site of Pendleton Broad Street Station.

Plus I feel that if Walkden becomes the interchange station between Metrolink and the main rail system for this area, it would open up many travel opportunities.

Although I think that there needs to be a Metrolink route out to Leigh, certain a much better option that a Guided Busway. I still feel that a Leigh Parkway Station on the site of Kenyon Junction is the best quick and cheapest way of giving Leigh a rail service.

Ah I see what you mean, I thought it was unusual for someone on a railway forum to want to convert a railway line for another use!

Would TfGM, having gone ahead with the Leigh Guided Busway project with Balfour Beatty as main contractors, also consider a Manchester Metrolink linkage as so described in previous postings, in addition to it ? Will that look like too much money will have been spent in one particular peripheral area to the detriment of other areas that have had nothing to date in the way of Light Rail provision.

Middleton, in particular, looks to be a deserted "tram-route-free" island on some "Future Metrolink" light rail provision maps.

I think its a bit late now the (mis)guided bus lane is being built.

Middleton has very poor non-road transport links with Mills Hill being the nearest railway station. I am unsure of where a Metrolink line could be ran, may be down Rochdale Road similar to the East Manchester line.

Fair point. To be honest I was going from memory and had not considered the M60 bridges. However I am not surprised that they were not built to allow for potential re-quadrafying. Once again the blinkered, narrow minded, lack of foresight people at the DaFT strike again.

You are quite right that the cost and closure of the M60 to rebuild the bridges would be very expensive but that hasn't stop them doing similar things in the South East.

Oh dear, silly me again the South East gets money thrown at it to increase infrastructure capacity, but here in the 'wilds' of Lancashire we have to make do with the dregs they munificently allow us, unless of course it is to build a complete waste of time and money, such as a 'Guided Busway'

I apologize for my cynical view of London politics, but even with the electrification and such like we still get nowhere near the money spent here compared to the South East.

It is a shame that short-sightedness continues to play havoc with the nations infrastructure, in the long term it will cost taxpayers a fortune.

Of course the South East gets special treatment, where do all the MP's live? London.

Where are a vast majority of newspapers (who shape the opinion of everyone, including politicans)? London

Where are the major party donors located? You get the drift...

also dont have the banks / financial institutions and government politicians who want to look god on the global stage.

Its all about stroking their egos.

Simon

Correct, vested interests.

 

[tbtc]

Of course the South East gets special treatment, where do all the MP's live? London.

Where are a vast majority of newspapers (who shape the opinion of everyone, including politicans)? London

Where are the major party donors located? You get the drift...

Compare the infrastructure spending in/around Greater Manchester this decade (rail electrification, Metrolink expansion, Ordsall Chord, new platforms at Piccadilly, Guided Busway...) with most of England and tell me that Lancashire is hard done by...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Compare the infrastructure spending in/around Greater Manchester this decade (rail electrification, Metrolink expansion, Ordsall Chord, new platforms at Piccadilly, Guided Busway...) with most of England and tell me that Lancashire is hard done by...

Steady on there, how many of what you quote above are NOT what you would say that are anything that Lancashire would benefit from:-

Ordsall Chord....not in Lancashire

Manchester Piccadily...not in Lancashire

Leigh Guided Busway...not in Lancashire

Manchester Metrolink....TfGM may well love to expand its system in Lancashire in the future, but naught in the boiling pot at present.

 

[edwin_m]

Hi Edwin. I have been back over the last few pages of posts but I am at a loss to know which points you mean. This is probably me missing what you have said. If you want to tell me which points you mean I will try and answer them. I will honestly admit that my views are precisely that. I have no engineering experience but I did work for the rail for quite a few years.

Curious - I've been back too and I can't find either my previous reply or the post that triggered it. Possibly it was on one of the many other topics that covers this part of the world. If I find it I'll return and edit. Apologies for the confusion and especially if if it wasn't you in the first place!

It was to the effect that tram-trains don't meet rail crashworthiness standards, the hazard of collisions is addressed by extra train protection instead. And that no sensible consultant should be proposing a tram-train unless it is the best solution, offering both a through service between the railway and somewhere important the railway can't reach, and also still allowing trains to use the railway part of the route. If either of these isn't needed then a tram-train is probably the wrong answer.

Edit: it was this one http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1672482&postcount=175

 

[HSTEd]

If you use a definition of Lancashire that excludes Greater Manchester and thus I assume Cheshire and Merseyside.... that doesn't leave you with that many people, roughly 1.4 million.

That gives it roughly 2.3% of the UK's population.