Buying A Ticket Before You Travel?

[bb21]

but 455driver seemed to be saying they had ... and he is always right

I think 455driver was just trying to present the idea in a simplified manner, and I'm sure you know what he was trying to say. (Of course you can never cover every eventuality if simplifying something by definition.)

Not having had the opportunity to pay is an exceptional circumstance which all relevant legislation make allowances for.

 

[Fare-Cop]

I would be keen to know at which station this incident is supposed to have occurred because as far as I am aware, IRCAS / ITAL do not employ station staff on any TOC.

Despite hypothetical queries, still no answer to this direct question so far as I can see........

 

[coxxy]

I may be wrong but I thought the second you stepped on to a train you were then under the conditions of carriage and the railway by-laws.. This being the case the payment issue is covered under these!

 

[Llanigraham]

I may be wrong but I thought the second you stepped on to a train you were then under the conditions of carriage and the railway by-laws.. This being the case the payment issue is covered under these!

Sooner than that; you enter the railway "premises" and you immediately come under the By Laws.

 

[snail]

Conflated ? The statement to which I replied was categoric - leave railway premises = guilty of offence.

Yes, but you added the inability of the conductor to get through the train to collect tickets - no opportunity to buy = no offence committed.

 

[sheff1]

I think 455driver was just trying to present the idea in a simplified manner, and I'm sure you know what he was trying to say. (Of course you can never cover every eventuality if simplifying something by definition.)

Following a recent exchange on another thread, I don't know he was trying to say something other than what he did say.

What I described is not a uniique or infrequent occurrence either. I have witnessed similar on other Northern and Scotrail operated lines, it is just that the Hope Valley line is one I use regularly so I know it is a normal feature there.

Not having had the opportunity to pay is an exceptional circumstance which all relevant legislation make allowances for.

I do not have an in depth knowledge of the RoRA which was quoted, but if it does make allowances when there is no opportunity to pay then fair enough. I vaguely remember, though, informed posters saying that the presence of someone on the train with a working ticket machine was an opportunity to pay - have I misremembered ?

 

[Anvil1984]

Just to add something in but if they travelled from Grindleford to Bamford and were unable to get tickets but returned in the other direction would you expect them to buy singles or the return tickets from the morning. I know what at least 70% would do. Its not a complete dig at the travelling public as it something I'd consider doing and it would be to purchase single tickets, after all their is no proof.........

I'm going to take a punt at what's happened from the fact IRCAS were mentioned and conductors not getting through the train. This is another Northern Rail story where the OP was running late so bypassed booking office and the conductor couldn't get around the whole train but they were nabbed at the other end. But unless they confirm / deny what's happened....

 

[6Gman]

In terms of it being a criminal offence to board a train without a ticket - what if you're running late for example? Do you miss the train because you have to go to the ticket office?

I tried that in Tesco last week. I was really pushed for time and there was a queue at the checkouts. So I just got my shopping and went home.

They weren't happy!

 

[sheff1]

Just to add something in but if they travelled from Grindleford to Bamford and were unable to get tickets but returned in the other direction would you expect them to buy singles or the return tickets from the morning. I know what at least 70% would do. Its not a complete dig at the travelling public as it something I'd consider doing and it would be to purchase single tickets, after all their is no proof.........

If they did return (although many go in for linear walks back to their starting point, or return from their end point by bus) they should, of course, buy a return from the morning (or at least attempt to *). I do though agree with you as to what would most likely happen.

* Not on the train, but on the Supertram in the days before OAPs were free, I saw on OAP going home in the evening ask for a return becasuse the conductor had not reached them on the way in. The conductor looked and spoke to them as if they were quite mad, and I guess many guards would act the same on the return train.

 

[andykn]

If they did return (although many go in for linear walks back to their starting point, or return from their end point by bus) they should, of course, buy a return from the morning (or at least attempt to *). I do though agree with you as to what would most likely happen.

* Not on the train, but on the Supertram in the days before OAPs were free, I saw on OAP going home in the evening ask for a return becasuse the conductor had not reached them on the way in. The conductor looked and spoke to them as if they were quite mad, and I guess many guards would act the same on the return train.

I've had similar surprise when I've explained I've been undercharged or overchanged.

 

[tony_mac]

If you walk out of Tescos with the service they provided you (the shopping) without paying then you will be guilty of theft, if you leave Raiway premises without paying for the service they provided you (a journey from A to B) then you are guilty of RoRA offences.

They are both effectively the same.

I think there are enough differences for it not to be too helpful.
You can decide to abandon your shopping at any time, prior to paying, and no harm is done, you can't do that with a train journey where payment is usually taken on board.
(Theft also requires dishonesty; if you make an honest mistake, then you should not be guilty - the same does not apply to railway byelaws.)

Even if there has been no opportunity to pay, it is obvious that the obligation to pay still exists.

there would be an obligation upon the person who used the chair to search out the attendant, like a debtor searching for his creditor, in order to pay him

Exactly how you should go about this, at an unstaffed station, I don't know! (I have paid at the destination before, and on a return journey, neither reaction suggested it was particularly unusual).

 

[Andrewlong]

A better analogy between railways and Tescos would be if in the course of going shopping I felt peckish and started eating some of the food which I hadn't yet paid for in my trolley. If I paid for all the goods at the checkout including the consumed ones that is good. If I abandoned my trolley and walked out before reaching the checkout, I would be committing theft because I had consumed a product/service without paying for it.

Many members of the public still believe travelling on a train without a ticket is ok as they can buy one from the guard or at their destination. Ticket checks on trains are too infrequent and many people are deliberately travelling with the wrong ticket. This problem does not appear from a PR situation to be addressed.

Also joe public is confused between the differences between the powers of a guard and RPI. I have seen a RPI in operation on a busy train and it was not pleasant.

Quoting the 1889 railway act here like a lawyer is all well and good, but the TOCs could do a lot more to check tickets, and educate the travelling public about the implications of travelling without valid tickets. And also the differences between guards and RPI staff.

 

[Stigy]

Sooner than that; you enter the railway "premises" and you immediately come under the By Laws.

Byelaws in general, but not byelaw 18 or 19, which relate to ticketing.

 

[fowler9]

I think the TOC's could cover themselves a lot more easily by having a simply sign on the way in to the station saying that it is a criminal offence to travel without a ticket unless instructed to do otherwise by a sign or a member of staff. No faffing around just say it like it is and being late for your train isn't a defense.

 

[ainsworth74]

Many of them already do...

 

[neilmc]

I think the TOC's could cover themselves a lot more easily by having a simply sign on the way in to the station saying that it is a criminal offence to travel without a ticket unless instructed to do otherwise by a sign or a member of staff. No faffing around just say it like it is and being late for your train isn't a defense.

That could be interpreted as saying that, if there isn't a ticket machine or office at the station, it's a criminal offence not to have bought a ticket online beforehand!

 

[fowler9]

That could be interpreted as saying that, if there isn't a ticket machine or office at the station, it's a criminal offence not to have bought a ticket online beforehand!

Not at all mate. I wasn't saying those were the exact words that should be used. Not everyone has access to the internet. I just think that some kind of properly worded sign at the station would stop anyone having any kind of let off. Some stations have such signs, West Allerton and Mossley Hill don't. It is very easy to get a train from either station, have it pull in to platform 9 at Lime Street having had no guard come around and pay nothing to anyone.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Fair enough. What about this example ?

A dozen passengers board at Grindleford heading west. The guard starts to sell tickets as soon as the train starts moving but, having sold 2 or 3, he has to return to the rear doors for the Hathersage stop. A dozen more board there, but after selling another couple of tickets the train is at Bamford where 10 more passengers board. A few more tickets are sold before everyone alights at Hope for a days walking. It is impossible to pay at Hope so upwards of 20 people leave Railway premises, apparently guilty of RoRA offences.

Should they turn themselves in to the forces of law and order for punishment ? Or is it accepted that people will be breaking the law with impunity on a regular basis - such scenes can be witnessed on morning stoppers any Sat & Sun all year round as a bit of wind and rain does not put most of these people off their walks! The only change from the above is when a guard decides not to collect any fares at all and everyone travels for free.

They could all stand in the doorway and not allow the guard to dispatch the train until they have all satisfied the requirement to pay for their journey. The train gets delayed, the guard gets a 'please explain' he explains "too many customers insisting on buying a ticket". Can the guard refuse to sell the customer a ticket in such circumstances?

As per the Blackburn Station situation - the RPI could be waiting at the exit from railway premises to catch them all, and if, as suggested, the mere presence of a member of railway staff and a working ticket machine constitues an opportunity to buy.....Kerching.

Perhaps difficult at Hope as a right of way uses the footbridge between platforms.

 

[Darandio]

Can the guard refuse to sell the customer a ticket in such circumstances

Of course they can. Revenue isn't at the top of their list of important duties.

 

[455driver]

I think 455driver was just trying to present the idea in a simplified manner, and I'm sure you know what he was trying to say.

As did everyone else who read my post but as normal for him, he decided to turn things around (which are not relevant to the thread) to suit his agenda! :roll:

But I was a good boy and didnt bite at the <deleted>!

 

[sheff1]

I have obviously been around here too long if people think I know things I do not and also have an agenda ... if only I knew what that agenda was !

Oh well, I have found the forum useful in answering questions I have had and hope at least some people have found some of my contributions useful in return.

So long and happy travelling.

 

[fowler9]

I have obviously been around here too long if people think I know things I do not and also have an agenda ... if only I knew what that agenda was !

Oh well, I have found the forum useful in answering questions I have had and hope at least some people have found some of my contributions useful in return.

So long and happy travelling.

Hey mate, chin up. I haven't been coming on here long but I think I've got on to who knows what they are talking about quite quickly. I'm sure most other people have. I often say things that are an opinion and I hope I make it clear that it is just an opinion. Keep up the good work and the good advice.

 

[455driver]

I have obviously been around here too long if people think I know things I do not and also have an agenda ... if only I knew what that agenda was !

Oh well, I have found the forum useful in answering questions I have had and hope at least some people have found some of my contributions useful in return.

So long and happy travelling.

What part of my answer to the specific question asked did you not understand?

Of course there are many different scenarios but these are not relevant to the question asked, I answered a question, you decided (again) to take the thread off on a jolly to suit your needs, thats about it really!

How would you feel if you asked a specific question and it was instantly taken off on a tangent before it had been answered?
okay most threads end up miles away from where they started but you didnt even wait until the OP had got a satisfactory conclusion to the debate.

 

[Flamingo]

Here's one -I had somebody tonight come up to me on the platform and ask could he buy a ticket on board as the train was departing soon. I said OK, and went to find him after departure. His card was declined by the machine, when I rang the bank (to his surprise) his card was declined. I refused to swipe it.

He then said he was not going to accept a UFN or pay cash as I had given him permission to travel.

Any thoughts?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Here's one -I had somebody tonight come up to me on the platform and ask could he buy a ticket on board as the train was departing soon. I said OK, and went to find him after departure. His card was declined by the machine, when I rang the bank (to his surprise) his card was declined. I refused to swipe it.

He then said he was not going to accept a UFN or pay cash as I had given him permission to travel.

Any thoughts?

Why did you say he could buy on the train?

Did he board at a station without ANY opportunities to purchase a ticket before boarding?

If so, you are part of the problem and not the solution - by giving out conflicting messages as to whether to buy before boarding or leave it until later.

"Buy before you board unless there are no facilities to do so". One dream, one vision, fried chicken as Freddie would have had it.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

He then said he was not going to accept a UFN or pay cash as I had given him permission to travel.

But that permission was given as permission to travel AND that the passenger would pay the fare. You gave that permission conditionally - the condition could be met by a payment or a UFN. The fare is still due.

They would have had grounds to claim that you had changed your mind if you later tried to eject them, having given permission to travel, but even then, the permission was still conditional and the condition had not been fulfilled.

Any thoughts?

It was someone who has read posts on this forum and thinks they know more than they really do!

 

[bb21]

Probably should have booted him off at the next station - not sure what your employer would have made of that however.

You had given him permission to travel, subject to him paying his fare. There is nothing wrong with using your discretion, and this type of situation is exactly what it is useful in. You've done him a favour, yet someone is taking the pee quite obviously.

I only hope there is an "eject" button in the guard's van that launches said individual 50000 feet upwards.

 

[Flamingo]

They boarded at a main station, but as it was a late train, they had limited options to travel, and it would not have been customer-friendly to make them wait an hour late at night for the next train (especially in view of the potential for weather disruption). This was giving the benefit of the doubt, and being flexible in light of conditions. I don't think anybody on here would have slated me for that (but obviously I was wrong).

My reading of the situation given the card declining and subsequent reaction was that by coming to ask me they were doing a double bluff with a dodgy card, especially as they were most insistent on buying a return ticket (meaning they could get through the barriers at the gated station on the return journey). They were not expecting me to ring the bank, and were expecting me to swipe the card as "everybody else does that" (as they repeatedly told me).

I gave them the option to get off at the next station and go to the cash machine there if the account balance was as healthy as claimed, but eventually they produced enough cash to comfortably cover the single fare (but not the return fare).

 

[island]

Here's one -I had somebody tonight come up to me on the platform and ask could he buy a ticket on board as the train was departing soon. I said OK, and went to find him after departure. His card was declined by the machine, when I rang the bank (to his surprise) his card was declined. I refused to swipe it.

He then said he was not going to accept a UFN or pay cash as I had given him permission to travel.

Any thoughts?

I'd say phone the BTP and ask them to meet the train at the next stop. But They Probably wouldn't.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I'd say phone the BTP and ask them to meet the train at the next stop. But They Probably wouldn't.

I would agree. I don't think this situation is any different from someone boarding and saying "**** you, I'm not paying". Of course, if this was outside the south east, the lone officer on duty would have had other things to be doing.