Buying A Ticket Before You Travel?

[PMCook]

I've noticed lots of rail operators now use IRCAS/ITAL to catch people without tickets/out of date tickets etc.

Genuine question: what wrong are you actually doing by getting on a train without a ticket?

I can almost hear most of you say "it's part of the terms and conditions you must buy a ticket before you board the train".

Okay, fair enough. At what point in time are you subject to those terms and conditions? Are you subject to them now? When you wake up? When you go to sleep? When you're on a plane?

You have to accept terms and conditions to be subject to them.

Now, if you board a train, with the means to pay, and the conductor doesn't come to serve you because, let's be honest, train operators won't pay for enough staff to serve customers (you are customers, if you don't use their service, they don't exist) - what wrong have you done? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Rail operators are trying, successfully, to make you think it's your responsibility to buy a ticket before you board. Why is it not their responsibility to serve you? Their responsibility to provide enough seats or a discount for people who have to stand? Their responsibility to make sure trains run on time.

I know a lot of you think I am a bit mental and completely wrong. Here's an extract from the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

"Introduction

When you buy a ticket to travel on the railway network you enter into an agreement with the Train Companies. That agreement gives you the right to make the journey, or journeys, between the stations or within the zones shown on the ticket you have bought."

It clearly states you enter into an agreement when you buy a ticket.

Here's another.

"A. TICKETS
1. Your contract A ticket that has been issued to you is evidence of a contract between you and each Train Company whose trains you have the right to use."

When you buy a ticket, you enter into a contract.

Therefore, if you don't have a ticket, you have not yet entered into that contract which means you are not subject to the Conditions of Carriage and subsequent Byelaws such as having to provide your name and address to staff or agents (ITAL/IRCAS).

I've got more on this but I'll leave it there to start the debate. So you know, this theory has been tested and not been proven wrong.

 

[ainsworth74]

You haven't entered into a contract (though by travelling on a train I'd say you'd be in debt to the railway) but there is legislation backing the purchase of tickets I'd suggest looking at The Regulations of Railways Act 1889 Section 5 and the Railway Byelaws (particularly) for a starting point. Further as we're talking about Penalty Fares (presumambly) the Penalty Fares Rules would also be worth a look.

 

[PMCook]

I agree, you should pay for the service but if nobody asks you to pay before the end of the journey, what wrong have you done? Why should you go out of your way to buy a ticket after your journey just because a train operator doesn't employ enough staff?

I'm turning this around. The train operators are putting the pressure on their customers. Let's look at it for a customer's point of view instead.

 

[maniacmartin]

As ainsworth states, even if you haven't entered into the contract, there is legislation that has been enacted specifically for ticketing on rail travel.

 

[Smethwickian]

Therefore, if you don't have a ticket, you have not yet entered into that contract which means you are not subject to the ... subsequent Byelaws such as having to provide your name and address to staff or agents.

Oh, yes you are. Anyone entering railway property is subject to railway byelaws, for whatever reason they are there (travelling, meeting/greeting, enthusiasts, making travel enquiries, etc).

 

[plymothian]

I've never entered a contract with Tesco until I willingly go to the checkout, so I could just walk straight out the door as no one has told me I have to, or approached me to make me, pay for my goods before leaving the store.

 

[Harlesden]

Astonishing thread.
In all countries it is an accepted part of life that you pay for goods/services without needing to be told to. A train station has a ticket kiosk or machine while supermarkets have clearly signed checkouts.
Pushing your luck and trying it on simply because nobody has approached you and told you that you must pay will likely get you a day in court.
It does seem to be a trend nowadays for a minority of younger members of society to breach traditional norms on the basis that there is no specific sign or instruction.
If a person actually needs telling - or sight of a sign - in order to do something totally normal and accepted like buying a ticket to board a train or paying for goods in a supermarket then what hope is there for the future of society generally. Isee a world slowly descending into total chaos and anarchy.

 

[PMCook]

Daily Mail reader by any chance, Jeff? It's certainly not astonishing. It's a debate.

This thread is not about avoiding payment it's about what wrong you are doing by walking onto a train without a ticket and expecting to be served by a conductor.

This is, however, in part, a fight back against the bullying tactics used by rail operators with the employment of IRCAS/ITAL. This is how my research into this started and I'm yet to be proved wrong by a rail company.

I certainly did not and have never refused to pay.

 

[Hadders]

I am not a lawyer but surely it's perfectly simple. In layman's terms you must purchase a ticket prior to boarding unless:

1. There are no facilities to pay at your departure station (ie. no ticket office or TVM or they are closed/not working)

2. The ticket you require is not available from the TVM

Surely this isn't hard to understand?

I've not had any experience of dealing with IRCAS/ITAL but anecdotal evidence on this forum suggests they are very far from perfect.

Your post suggests you have had difficulties with these organisations and if you were to post full details I am sure that forum members may be able to advise/assist.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Daily Mail reader by any chance, Jeff? It's certainly not astonishing. It's a debate.

This thread is not about avoiding payment it's about what wrong you are doing by walking onto a train without a ticket and expecting to be served by a conductor.

This is, however, in part, a fight back against the bullying tactics used by rail operators with the employment of IRCAS/ITAL. This is how my research into this started and I'm yet to be proved wrong by a rail company.

I certainly did not and have never refused to pay.

You are very unequivocally wrong. Railway Byelaw 18:

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas

(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter
any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a
valid ticket entitling him to travel.

(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity
when asked to do so by an authorised person.

(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:
(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or
validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where,
he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey
permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a
valid ticket.

If you can buy a ticket before travelling but you do not do so, you are committing a criminal offence. This has nothing to do with the Conditions of Carriage, or with any contract - these are all civil matters. Boarding a train without a ticket is a criminal matter.

 

[Goatboy]

The difference is that it's not about acceptance of T&C's allowing a contract to be formed as with other walks of life - the railways have specific legislation. It is against the law to board a train without paying (except where the opportunity to pay did not exist, etc).

 

[Urban Gateline]

Daily Mail reader by any chance, Jeff? It's certainly not astonishing. It's a debate.

This thread is not about avoiding payment it's about what wrong you are doing by walking onto a train without a ticket and expecting to be served by a conductor.

This is, however, in part, a fight back against the bullying tactics used by rail operators with the employment of IRCAS/ITAL. This is how my research into this started and I'm yet to be proved wrong by a rail company.

I certainly did not and have never refused to pay.

How about if you get on a train where there is no conductor/ATE checking tickets such as FCC and some Southern DOO train routes? If the starting station has ticket issuing facilities why should you be allowed to ignore them if they can sell the ticket you require?

I can understand your point if you refer solely to rural lines with small stations without ticket issuing facilities where you are not doing anything wrong by boarding without a ticket as you physically cannot purchase one at the starting station.

 

[island]

From memory, a legally-trained forum member has previously suggested that you do in fact have a contract as soon as you enter the railway vehicle. The train operating company/ies will convey you in return for your implicit promise to pay the fare.

 

[yorkie]

I agree, you should pay for the service but if nobody asks you to pay before the end of the journey, what wrong have you done?

Surely ainsworth74 already answered this?

I'm turning this around. The train operators are putting the pressure on their customers. Let's look at it for a customer's point of view instead.

we can't look at "it" until you tell is what "it" is. the railway network is huge and there are around a couple of dozen operators.

What journey and exact circumstance have you experienced, and are you dissatisfied with ?

 

[tony_mac]

From memory, a legally-trained forum member has previously suggested that you do in fact have a contract as soon as you enter the railway vehicle. The train operating company/ies will convey you in return for your implicit promise to pay the fare.

but there is some detail about exactly what terms should apply.
e.g., see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parker_v_South_Eastern_Railway_Company
http://www.legalmax.info/members2/conbook/thompson.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapelton_v_Barry_UDC

(although it isn't particularly relevant to that case, the judgement also contains some opinion relevant to this discussion)

it may be that the attendant would not come to him at all for payment for the chair, in which case I take it there would be an obligation upon the person who used the chair to search out the attendant, like a debtor searching for his creditor, in order to pay him

 

[PMCook]

Tony Mac - thanks for the examples, however, all three of them a contract was entered into by payment being made.

Island - I'm not sure how one can enter into a contract by walking. What I would say is that at no point did I refuse to make payment or would suggest that someone does that. If you do, you should be thrown off the train.

In terms of it being a criminal offence to board a train without a ticket - what if you're running late for example? Do you miss the train because you have to go to the ticket office? Why should you or would you when conductors sell tickets on the train.

It's against the law to kill someone, it's not against the law to walk onto public transport without a piece of paper.

My issue has been resolved. I used my argument above when I made a genuine mistake after my season ticket had expired the day before without me realising. I was refused the opportunity to buy one and bullied into filling in a form to make payment for the journey. I won't ever fill in any paperwork for these people again - I have no obligation to do so and won't do. These people have no power over any of us (unless we consent).

The train operator is now not chasing payment after I used my argument. I have no issue anymore. I'm bringing this on here to debate and hopefully help people who are subjected to this bullying at stations by IRCAS/ITAL staff.

 

[Stigy]

Daily Mail reader by any chance, Jeff? It's certainly not astonishing. It's a debate.

This thread is not about avoiding payment it's about what wrong you are doing by walking onto a train without a ticket and expecting to be served by a conductor.

This is, however, in part, a fight back against the bullying tactics used by rail operators with the employment of IRCAS/ITAL. This is how my research into this started and I'm yet to be proved wrong by a rail company.

I certainly did not and have never refused to pay.

So you say this thread isn't about avoiding payment on the one hand, yet say it's perfectly okay not to pay for a ticket if not challenged, on the other? Railway Byelaw 18(1) of the National Railway Byelaws (2005), States you will buy before you board, as long as there's no signage permitting otherwise, staff haven't given permission to board or there were no working ticket issuing facilities t your origin. It's quite simple, and your only defence would be what I outlined.

 

[yorkie]

Island - I'm not sure how one can enter into a contract by walking

It's nothing to do with walking. It would be the act of entering a train (which admittedly is likely to be by walking).

In terms of it being a criminal offence to board a train without a ticket - what if you're running late for example? Do you miss the train because you have to go to the ticket office?

You have not answered my question, so I will assume that your journey is from a Penalty Fare station. In which case there should be signage making it clear that it is compulsory buy before you board. If you do not, there is legislation that makes it a criminal matter if you fail to do so (which you don't want to read).

Why should you or would you when conductors sell tickets on the train.

In general conductors cannot issue Penalty Fares and may not be able to report passengers for prosecution. However, an RPI can.

It's against the law to kill someone, it's not against the law to walk onto public transport without a piece of paper.

It's not a piece of paper that is required, it is authority to travel (which could be a smart card, it could be the Guard's permission), but yes it can be against the law (but you have chosen not to read it)

My issue has been resolved. I used my argument above when I made a genuine mistake after my season ticket had expired the day before without me realising. I was refused the opportunity to buy one and bullied into filling in a form to make payment for the journey. I won't ever fill in any paperwork for these people again - I have no obligation to do so and won't do. These people have no power over any of us (unless we consent).

They can call the BTP who can ensure your details are obtained. This was answered in a thread a couple of days ago.

How was your case "resolved"? Presumably by reaching an out of court settlement?

 

[455driver]

I've never entered a contract with Tesco until I willingly go to the checkout, so I could just walk straight out the door as no one has told me I have to, or approached me to make me, pay for my goods before leaving the store.

You have never entered into a contract with Tescos until you recieve the services they provide (shopping).

If you walk out of Tescos with the service they provided you (the shopping) without paying then you will be guilty of theft, if you leave Raiway premises without paying for the service they provided you (a journey from A to B) then you are guilty of RoRA offences.

They are both effectively the same.

 

[bb21]

In terms of it being a criminal offence to board a train without a ticket - what if you're running late for example? Do you miss the train because you have to go to the ticket office?

Yes, of course, because it is your responsibility to arrive at the station in good time and that includes leaving sufficient time to buy your ticket.

Why should you or would you when conductors sell tickets on the train.

See my answer above.

It's against the law to kill someone, it's not against the law to walk onto public transport without a piece of paper.

You will find that it is against the law, provided that there are opportunities to pay at your origin station. Numerous people have pointed out to you which pieces of legislation are relevant, but I somehow get the impression that you are not interested at all in reading them.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

We're still a little light on detail, but I just wonder if the element of explanation which PMCook seeks lies in the tort of trespass (in England & Wales)?
Any person on railway property is on private land, and may fall into a number of categories, including (but not limited to) : passengers having paid for their ticket, passengers who have still to pay for their ticket, gratuitous passengers (such as children & persons permitted to travel), staff and contractors, proper users of railway property, and by default, trespassers.
I think island might have been referring to previous discussion of 'gratuitous passengers'.

Following a great number of legal challenges, the specific legislation applicabale to the Railways has been refined to the extent that we now find a robust array of statute, case law and (where applicable) tort, which provide the Criminal Offences and Civil Offences which cover most circumstances of ticketless travel. I am aware that there are some small omissions (which I will not publicise on here) but they do not seem to apply to your specific circumstances.

tony_mac has introduced some interesting authorities, but I have to say that thay are not going to assist in the circumstances you find yourself in as I understand them.

You will not be the first person to be relieved of an impending prosecution after some negotiation (usually on pragmatic and/or financial terms rather than a want of jurisdiction, though there are interesting undefined areas in the TfL area at present), but it would be prudent to put that thought in some balance with the very large number of prosecutions that are brought forward each month and which, despite challenges, succeed.

Considering your specific circumstances, I just wonder if you might have been confused when I read your remark "I was refused the opportunity to buy one and bullied . . . " ?
This seems to refer to a discussion with an Investigator, whose duty it is to gather relevant information following the detection of a suspected offence and with the due process required should there be a Prosecution. It would not be appropriate for any Criminal Investigator to 'regularise' the situation under investigation by accepting a payment - I hope that after a little reflection and analysis that this becomes clear as a necessary condition of investigative work where a Criminal Offence may have been suspected?

 

[EM2]

...what if you're running late for example? Do you miss the train because you have to go to the ticket office? Why should you or would you when conductors sell tickets on the train.

Yes, you miss the train.
Do you break the law should you happen to exceed the speed limit if you are late travelling by car? And if a police officer or camera doesn't catch you, you have still broken the law, even though there are signs (or other legislation) telling you how fast you may go.
My local High Street has no sign telling me the speed limit. But if I drove down there at 50mph and was stopped by a policeman, would that be a defence?

So, if you are running late, and you decide not to buy a ticket for your journey, and you are asked to produce such a ticket and cannot, you have broken the law.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

These people have no power over any of us (unless we consent).

But they do. The Regulation Of Railways Act and the Railway Byelaws say as such.
For example (from the Regualtion Of Railways Act):

Every passenger by a railway shall, on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, either produce, and if so requested deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or pay his fare from the place whence he started, or give the officer or servant his name and address; and in case of default shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine

If a passenger having failed either to produce, or if requested to deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or to pay his fare, refuses [or fails] on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, to give his name and address, any officer of the company. . . may detain him until he can be conveniently brought before some justice or otherwise discharged by due course of law.

 

[Fare-Cop]

I'm not sure how one can enter into a contract by walking.

In this context there are two types of contract. The intending traveller who holds a valid ticket for their journey has an 'Express' contract with the TOC. S/he has previously paid the fare due for the express purpose of being conveyed from the starting station named on the ticket to the destination station named on that ticket and the TOC has expressly agreed to provide that service.

The intending traveller who does not hold a valid ticket has an 'Implied' contract. The traveller has indicated that s/he intends to travel and therefore has implied that s/he intends to meet the legal obligation to pay for that service.

This implication is in a sense formalised by the Byelaw, which makes it a strict liability requirement, enforceable at law, to pay the fare before boarding if joining a train at a station where facilities are available for them to do so.

What I would say is that at no point did I refuse to make payment or would suggest that someone does that.

That does not negate the authority of the Byelaw, but if someone did refuse to pay then a further, more serious offence becomes evident.

In terms of it being a criminal offence to board a train without a ticket - what if you're running late for example? Do you miss the train because you have to go to the ticket office?

Yes, that can be the case. It is not the TOCs responsibility to get you to the station on time.

Why should you or would you when conductors sell tickets on the train.

Because a legislation instructs it. Where there is an advertised 'pay-on-train' policy that is a different matter, but where facilities are available to the intending traveller before boarding a train, the terms of the Byelaw are very clear.

it's not against the law to walk onto public transport without a piece of paper.

So far as National Railways are concerned, it is in the circumstances described.

I was refused the opportunity to buy one and bullied into filling in a form to make payment for the journey. I won't ever fill in any paperwork for these people again. I have no obligation to do so and won't do.

You do not have to fill in any paperwork as you put it, the TOC staff will do so in order to file a report.

These people have no power over any of us (unless we consent).

This sounds like the 'Freeman on the Land' defence that I have come across a few times and which has always failed in my experience.

My all-time favourite response to this was given by a certain District Judge who, when referring to what he described as 'the drivel put before me as a defence' by a defendant at trial remarked, "Mr XXXXXX, you may say that you do not recognise the law and the rail company's authority to make you subject to it, but I can assure you that the law certainly recognises you."

The Judge went on to impose an aggravated fine for 'intent to avoid a fare'.

I'm bringing this on here to debate and hopefully help people who are subjected to this bullying at stations by IRCAS/ITAL staff.

I would be keen to know at which station this incident is supposed to have occurred because as far as I am aware, IRCAS / ITAL do not employ station staff on any TOC.
.

 

[Stigy]

I won't ever fill in any paperwork for these people again - I have no obligation to do so and won't do. These people have no power over any of us (unless we consent).

Under s.5(2) Regulation of Railways Act 1889 the staff can detain you until you can be brought before justice (the Police basically) for refusing to supply your name and address after having failed to pay your fare. So in that respect, they do have more power over member of the public, whether you like it or not. They'll most likely not exercise this power, but it's there in black and white nonetheless.

You are under no obligation to accept a Penalty Fare Notice, but if you don't the only alternative is to cut out the middle man and report you. This being the case it'll potentially be up to a District Judge or three Magistrates to decide your fate, and unfortunately, chances are, if using Railway Byelaws, you'll be found guilty and made to pay a fine of around £200, victim surcharge of 10% of the fine amount (£20 in most Byelaw cases), a contribution to the TOC's costs (around £100) and the ticket price that is still owed.

 

[plymothian]

You have never entered into a contract with Tescos until you recieve the services they provide (shopping).

If you walk out of Tescos with the service they provided you (the shopping) without paying then you will be guilty of theft, if you leave Raiway premises without paying for the service they provided you (a journey from A to B) then you are guilty of RoRA offences.

They are both effectively the same.

That was the point I was making.

 

[sheff1]

... if you leave Raiway premises without paying for the service they provided you (a journey from A to B) then you are guilty of RoRA offences.

Fair enough. What about this example ?

A dozen passengers board at Grindleford heading west. The guard starts to sell tickets as soon as the train starts moving but, having sold 2 or 3, he has to return to the rear doors for the Hathersage stop. A dozen more board there, but after selling another couple of tickets the train is at Bamford where 10 more passengers board. A few more tickets are sold before everyone alights at Hope for a days walking. It is impossible to pay at Hope so upwards of 20 people leave Railway premises, apparently guilty of RoRA offences.

Should they turn themselves in to the forces of law and order for punishment ? Or is it accepted that people will be breaking the law with impunity on a regular basis - such scenes can be witnessed on morning stoppers any Sat & Sun all year round as a bit of wind and rain does not put most of these people off their walks! The only change from the above is when a guard decides not to collect any fares at all and everyone travels for free.

 

[PermitToTravel]

They have their travel paid for by us down south

 

[snail]

Should they turn themselves in to the forces of law and order for punishment ?

And if they had exceeded the speed limit driving to the station should they 'turn themselves in' on the way home?

To use a well use phrase, ignorance of the law is no excuse. If someone decides to take a risk in breaking the law - be it a train ticket, speeding offence or whatever - then they should accept the consequences if caught.

In your conveniently conflated example it's up to the TOC to offer the opportunity to pay; if they don't then anyone 'caught' travelling without a ticket has a valid defence. If you have bought a ticket in advance to avoid committing an offence it is of no consequence to you in legal terms that others may get away with the offence without being caught.

 

[neilmc]

Fair enough. What about this example ?

A dozen passengers board at Grindleford heading west. The guard starts to sell tickets as soon as the train starts moving but, having sold 2 or 3, he has to return to the rear doors for the Hathersage stop. A dozen more board there, but after selling another couple of tickets the train is at Bamford where 10 more passengers board. A few more tickets are sold before everyone alights at Hope for a days walking. It is impossible to pay at Hope so upwards of 20 people leave Railway premises, apparently guilty of RoRA offences.

Should they turn themselves in to the forces of law and order for punishment ? Or is it accepted that people will be breaking the law with impunity on a regular basis - such scenes can be witnessed on morning stoppers any Sat & Sun all year round as a bit of wind and rain does not put most of these people off their walks! The only change from the above is when a guard decides not to collect any fares at all and everyone travels for free.

These people have not broken the law since there are no facilities to purchase a ticket at Grindleford prior to boarding and they have not declined to pay on board, just that the guard can't get round everybody in time. If this is a serious revenue loss the TOC could install a ticket machine at Grindleford and put a few RPIs on these trains, the fact that they haven't indicates that they are prepared to accept this loss.

 

[sheff1]

These people have not broken the law...

but 455driver seemed to be saying they had ... and he is always right

In your conveniently conflated example...

Conflated ? The statement to which I replied was categoric - leave railway premises = guilty of offence.