Accurate, correct, sensible information to the public

[Baxenden Bank]

The following was taken from National Rail Enquiries a few minutes ago.

"Following the recent poor weather, there was a major landslip near to Ockley. Because of this, buses will run between these stations, extending journey times by up to 45 minutes.

In addition to this, buses will also run between Dorking and Three Bridges, where passengers can connect with trains for the South Coast or Gatwick Airport."

Do the people posting these updates actually read them before they upload them?

a) Landslip near Ockley, buses will run between these stations! Which stations?

b) In addition buses will run between Dorking and Three Bridges. Well, the linked map shows Dorking but it doesn't show Three Bridges and is this second set of buses actually related to the incident in question?

The other day (Friday 27th), on BBC Red Button, presumably fed from a railway source, it stated for Virgin Trains:
a) service disruptions due to weather conditions, and,
b) a normal service is operating.

I've always thought so but didn't think Beardie would agree that his normal service is a disrupted one!:roll:

 

[thelongestroad]

A normal timetable appropriate for the day of the week perhaps?

 

[Stats]

The following was taken from National Rail Enquiries a few minutes ago.

"Following the recent poor weather, there was a major landslip near to Ockley. Because of this, buses will run between these stations, extending journey times by up to 45 minutes.

In addition to this, buses will also run between Dorking and Three Bridges, where passengers can connect with trains for the South Coast or Gatwick Airport."

Do the people posting these updates actually read them before they upload them?

a) Landslip near Ockley, buses will run between these stations! Which stations?

b) In addition buses will run between Dorking and Three Bridges. Well, the linked map shows Dorking but it doesn't show Three Bridges and is this second set of buses actually related to the incident in question?

a) Between the stations mentioned in the title to the disruption message which you have conviently omitted to suit your moan.
B) The second set of buses is more related to the incident in question than the first. Due to the Stoats Nest Jnc blockade Gatwick to Victoria services were due to run via Three Bridges and Dorking and the Three Bridges replacement buses substitute for those schedule Gatwick services that can no longer run. The buses between Horsham and Dorking were always planned to run to have replaced the stopping services along the Mole Valley line which could not run because of a lack of capacity due to the Gatwick diversions needing to run fast along the route.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

“Disruption to Island Line services until further notice”

Now that one is much better, all the information you need, in one place, in English.

What has happened.
Where it has happened.
How long the disruption will last.
What the alternative arrangements are - with no need to refer to several further sites for detail.
I’ll give it 9.5 out of 10.

Why only 9.5?

“Coaches are unable to serve some stations because of limited road access. The following stations WILL be served”

Should say: Coaches are unable to serve some stations because of limited road access. The following locations WILL be served (and then the list) - assuming no need to call at Smallbrook Junction if no steam railway services, otherwise it should be specifically mentioned as being unable to be served at all.

One of the things that Northern do is list the calling points for rail replacement bus services in their printed timetables - even if there is no engineering work scheduled or referred to in that timetable period. The information is out there, ready for use when disruption occurs. People flicking through the timetable will absorb the information without even knowing they have done so.

TOC's need to identify and share best practice.

My point is, not the specifics of the incidents but the ability for people to communicate in a clear unambigous manner when it matters.

Hence the reference to Virgin and their 'normal' service on BBC red button. Normal for a weekday? for a day betwixt Christmas and New Year? as per printed timetables? as per special printed or on-line schedules?

I took normal to mean 'no disruptions' which contradicted the other point. "thelongestroad" took it to mean normal for that day of the week. both entirely reasonable interpretations.

To much reliance is now placed on short messages, capable of being twitted without further editing. On twit, you are limited to 140 characters. On the internet you are not, so why limit the message?

Due to the Stoats Nest Jnc blockade Gatwick to Victoria services were due to run via Three Bridges and Dorking and the Three Bridges replacement buses substitute for those schedule Gatwick services that can no longer run. The buses between Horsham and Dorking were always planned to run to have replaced the stopping services along the Mole Valley line which could not run because of a lack of capacity due to the Gatwick diversions needing to run fast along the route.

If we are being picky, some punctuation in those sentences would be useful!

 

[Chrisgr31]

There are a number if reasons why they might restrict the message content including Twitter, but I suspect there might be other software issues as well, depending when the software was written etc. Also shorter messages are a lot easier to pick up on a mobile device.

Personally I agree that there is a need for better accurate, sensible and correct information to the public but believe you have the wrong target at the moment. At least that advice is correct and sensible!

The difficulty appears to be getting information from the signal box to anywhere else, as the signallers must know what is happening (or their software does) but getting that information anywhere else seems to be next to impossible when there is a major incident.

 

[edwin_m]

Traditionally in a major incident everyone pitches in to deal with it, including people who would normally be tasked with keeping the passengers informed. And although the various automated informations systems work quite well when things are running smoothly, they can't always cope with major disruption, which is of course when they are needed most.

Ideally there would be a "single source of truth", where all information about current and future train movements was combined in a central database and this was used not only to feed all local and online passenger information systems but also as the main means of informing the people directly concerned - without this feature it just wouldn't be used when needed most!

Alternatively we could go back to a railway where there were many more staff concerned with train and station operations, who would have the time available to supply information to whoever needed it. However, removing the rose-tinted spectacles, I'm not sure that worked terribly well back in the day or how well it would translate to modern times when most people have access to a good deal of real-time information and probably expect even more.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Traditionally in a major incident everyone pitches in to deal with it, including people who would normally be tasked with keeping the passengers informed. And although the various automated informations systems work quite well when things are running smoothly, they can't always cope with major disruption, which is of course when they are needed most.

Ideally there would be a "single source of truth", where all information about current and future train movements was combined in a central database and this was used not only to feed all local and online passenger information systems but also as the main means of informing the people directly concerned - without this feature it just wouldn't be used when needed most!

Alternatively we could go back to a railway where there were many more staff concerned with train and station operations, who would have the time available to supply information to whoever needed it. However, removing the rose-tinted spectacles, I'm not sure that worked terribly well back in the day or how well it would translate to modern times when most people have access to a good deal of real-time information and probably expect even more.

I can just see the Twitter operator slipping in to a hi-vis jacket and grabbing a shovel!

 

[edwin_m]

I can just see the Twitter operator slipping in to a hi-vis jacket and grabbing a shovel!

While of course obeying the prohibition on using electronic devices unless in a place of safety...

 

[3141]

My favourite was a South West Trains announcement of engineering work changes which said the "the usual half-hourly service will operate every 60 minutes".

Most people would guess what they means, but it is important to communicate clearly and accurately.

 

[Hartington]

It's not just the railway. Listen to BBC Radio 2 traffic reports. They're not perfect but they follow a pattern (usually) - start in the north, work south then west. The information about individual problems also follows a fairly standard format.

Then listen to the ones that pop up from BBC locla radio on RDS. No structure of any kind whatsoever and a (not wholly unreasonable) assumption that we all know the local landmarks so there's no need to give road numbers for us "foreigners".

How about the ubiquitous airline announcement "your plane is delayed due to the late arrival of the incoming aircraft".

 

[455driver]

If you want to ensure the information is perfectly accurate before it goes out it will mean there will be very little info going out!

They try to put accurate information out but things change very quickly when its gone base over apex!

 

[sbt]

Although I haven't got much beyond initial thoughts it might be helpful to think about what this 'Accurate, Correct, Sensible (and Timely)' information is actually trying to ACHIEVE. Then:

a) We can evaluate how important deviations from that standard are.

b) Those providing the information can evaluate how to deal with things when it isn't possible to meet all the criteria.​

To my mind, the preamble and first items on the list should be something along the lines of:

Information should be sufficiently timely, accurate, correct and clear to, in priority order:

1. Minimise the chances of a passenger being placed in a unsafe or unhealthy position or location.

2. Minimise the chances of a passenger being stranded at a location from which they cannot make their own way home or, failing that, to a place of comfort and safety.

3. Minimise the chances of passengers being placed in a situation where they might believe 1. or 2. applied.

4. Minimise the chances of passengers starting a journey whose duration is likely to be significantly longer than they have been advised to expect.

5. Minimise the delay to passengers who are already in transit.​

There are obviously better wordings that could be devised and the list is not exhaustive or complete.

1. and 2. come from personal experience of

a) Following advice and leaving a heated Waiting Room to board a train that subsequently, and unexpectedly, deposited me, with several others, on an unmanned station without open Waiting Rooms during a period of sub-zero temperatures. We were picked up by another train, but for 40 minutes we had no idea if this was going to happen.

b) Many, many, years ago, when I was still a teen, being advised to take a Rail Replacement Bus that did not cover the full distance of the journey I was making and left me outside an isolated country station at 1:30 am. I had to wait for the first train of the morning at something like 06:00.​

Avoiding similar, or worse, situations, should (within reason) IMHO be the first priority when providing passenger information.

 

[DownSouth]

If you want to ensure the information is perfectly accurate before it goes out it will mean there will be very little info going out!

They try to put accurate information out but things change very quickly when its gone base over apex!

Absolutely correct, when things aren't going to plan there has to be a balance struck between accuracy and timeliness as it's logically impossible for both to be 100% perfect.

What can be done is improvements to systems which reduce the level of compromise which needs to be accepted, this is the 21st century and it shouldn't need to be a big deal to get information flowing quickly.

A good first step would be if the UK rail industry embraced existing open standards like GTFS (General Transit Feed Specification), when a user on their computer or mobile device clicks on one of your stations this is all they can get …



… while putting together a GTFS feed would enable this kind of thing, plus so much more …

 

[Surreytraveller]

There are a number if reasons why they might restrict the message content including Twitter, but I suspect there might be other software issues as well, depending when the software was written etc. Also shorter messages are a lot easier to pick up on a mobile device.

Personally I agree that there is a need for better accurate, sensible and correct information to the public but believe you have the wrong target at the moment. At least that advice is correct and sensible!

The difficulty appears to be getting information from the signal box to anywhere else, as the signallers must know what is happening (or their software does) but getting that information anywhere else seems to be next to impossible when there is a major incident.

Software issues - certainly. They cannot get information on departure boards in some locations due to software not allowing enough characters to be displayed, even though the hardware is perfectly capable.

 

[Chrisgr31]

To my mind, the preamble and first items on the list should be something along the lines of:

Information should be sufficiently timely, accurate, correct and clear to, in priority order:

1. Minimise the chances of a passenger being placed in a unsafe or unhealthy position or location.

2. Minimise the chances of a passenger being stranded at a location from which they cannot make their own way home or, failing that, to a place of comfort and safety.

3. Minimise the chances of passengers being placed in a situation where they might believe 1. or 2. applied.

4. Minimise the chances of passengers starting a journey whose duration is likely to be significantly longer than they have been advised to expect.

5. Minimise the delay to passengers who are already in transit.​

There are obviously better wordings that could be devised and the list is not exhaustive or complete.

I suspect there are different options for different routes. For example on Southerns network whilst 1 and 2 might apply the reality is that one is always going to be within distance to be rescued by a friend in a car.

However there are always going to be occasions when 4 & 5 apply because commuters need to get to their destination.

On the same basis commuters and leisure travellers need different messages because the former have a far greater knowledge.

So on the Uckfield line if we stop prior to entering the single line section we'll often get a message saying "We are at a red signal waiting for the down train", which irritates commuters as they know thats why we are stationary however it benefits leisure travellers. Commuters of course want to know whether there is something wrong somewhere else that has caused the down train to be delayed and will further impact on our trip.

Then of course there are the days when we stop on the mainline between East Croydon and London Bridge and there is no message at all. Part of the on train service is of course down to staff. Some days you'll have a very enthusiastic driver and guard so you get announcements as to what is happening every minute or so, other days you won't and you get nothing.

When it comes to major incidents it often seems that those staff on trains, platforms etc seem to know what the obvious solutions are but then it takes far too long to get those solutions implemented.

 

[edwin_m]

On the same basis commuters and leisure travellers need different messages because the former have a far greater knowledge.

So on the Uckfield line if we stop prior to entering the single line section we'll often get a message saying "We are at a red signal waiting for the down train", which irritates commuters as they know thats why we are stationary however it benefits leisure travellers. Commuters of course want to know whether there is something wrong somewhere else that has caused the down train to be delayed and will further impact on our trip.

I suggest either could be resolved by giving a simple non-technical explanation of the problem and also an indication of how long the delay will be - this is important to the occasional traveller as well as to the commuters. In general airlines do this much better than railways, possibly because the flight crew know much more about what is going on but train drivers tend to be informed on a need-to-know basis.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Ideally there would be a "single source of truth", where all information about current and future train movements was combined in a central database and this was used not only to feed all local and online passenger information systems but also as the main means of informing the people directly concerned - without this feature it just wouldn't be used when needed most!

Don't TOC's have 'central controls'? Someone re-organises trains, traincrew, train routeing, ordering replacement buses, messages for platform staff etc. In the same room should be someone with a responsibility of informing the public.

I don't place much reliance on automated systems, especially, as has been pointed out, they are most likely to be found wanting when things go wrong - garbage in, garbage out. For example, in the bad snow a couple of winters ago, traincrew couldn't get to the depot so no trains, information staff couldn't get to their desks so no updates, but the station train departure screens continued showing trains as expected xxxx, as no-one was available to cancel them off the system.

National Rail Enquiries states 'check your journey before you travel' but, as is clear from various threads this past few days, journey planners are giving out incorrect / out of date information. Presumably there is simply insufficient resource to update the systems i.e. not enough bodies at desks over the extended holiday period. Much the same I suppose as hospitals not having enough senior staff on duty at the weekend so don't get ill on a Friday.

 

[3141]

If you want to ensure the information is perfectly accurate before it goes out it will mean there will be very little info going out!

They try to put accurate information out but things change very quickly when its gone base over apex!

That's not necessarily the case. On 17th December I had to travel from Overton to Horsham, and the best route is to go to Clapham Junction and change there. I got to Overton Station at 09.10 in order to catch the 09.20 and a train to London was just pulling out. The ticket office clerk said that was the 07.49 and a bus was on its way to take people to Basingstoke. I decided to drive to Basingstoke because there are more trains from there towards London.

There was more than one problem that morning, and the reasons offered for the delays on the West of England line included:
1) an obstruction on the line at Whitchurch (four miles west of Overton);
2) an obstruction on the line at Overton;
3) a broken-down train which could not be repaired.

A broken-down train would of course be an obstruction, and if that was really the cause of the problem it would be sensible to be explicit and say that a train had broken down. Saying just that there was an "obstruction" makes people wonder if the real cause is being concealed - perhaps someone doesn't want to admit that a train had failed. Saying different things doesn't provide confidence for passengers.

The train I caught from Basingstoke was the 07.25 from Exeter, scheduled to depart from Basingstoke at 09.55, which actually left at about 10.20. The reason given for the delay was a signalling problem at Axminster. Apparently it had managed to get round the obstruction at Whitchurch or Overton.

I had allowed plenty of time for my journey and was not late getting to Horsham, so these differing explanations for the delays didn't greatly matter to me, but if someone had arrived late at their destination or missed an important connection you can see how the lack of clarity about why they had been delayed could be extremely frustrating.

 

[LBSCR Times]

Don't TOC's have 'central controls'? Someone re-organises trains, traincrew, train routeing, ordering replacement buses, messages for platform staff etc. In the same room should be someone with a responsibility of informing the public.

Some TOC's have abolished that post......

You do have Customer Information Controllers, but most of their work is putting on the screens what is cancelled etc, or sending messages via the website etc.
If they are not told what is happening by the Train Running Controllers then they cannot send the information out (and yes, that does happen, or they insist on having it in writing before issuing it.....)!

 

[VauxhallandI]

Some TOC's have abolished that post......

You do have Customer Information Controllers, but most of their work is putting on the screens what is cancelled etc, or sending messages via the website etc.
If they are not told what is happening by the Train Running Controllers then they cannot send the information out (and yes, that does happen, or they insist on having it in writing before issuing it.....)!

The special information pre-Christmas at my local station was unreadable.

It is a three line display with the third line being used however every time it got to the part where the actual message was to be displayed it reset with the time of the second train. The message would then start again and off we go around in the circle...

To me that is mind bogglingly useless for which there can be no excuse

 

[Surreytraveller]

they insist on having it in writing before issuing it.....)!

That's what happens when word of mouth information is accurate 99% of the time, and it is just the 1% of inaccurate (or altered since it was said) that gets picked up on those senior to the information providers, who then dish out 'please explains' for the 1% of dodgy information, with no recognition of the other 99% good information and hard work, when those in the senior positions would be totally incapable of doing the job themselves (which is why they've been put in those senior positions in the first place - the easy way for them to be shifted away from the harm they're doing...)

 

[LBSCR Times]

(which is why they've been put in those senior positions in the first place - the easy way for them to be shifted away from the harm they're doing...)

Standard practice in BR days!
If you did wrong then you got promoted to a job at Waterloo HQ.....

 

[Paul Kelly]

A good first step would be if the UK rail industry embraced existing open standards like GTFS (General Transit Feed Specification)

There is a GTFS feed available here, updated weekly from the ATOC open data feeds:
http://gtfs.gbrail.info/

 

[PHILIPE]

I have noticed during the recent weather disruptions that TOCs Journey Checks are referring to "Obstruction on Line". If it's a tree as in almost all of these cases, why don't they call a tree a tree?.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I have noticed during the recent weather disruptions that TOCs Journey Checks are referring to "Obstruction on Line". If it's a tree as in almost all of these cases, why don't they call a tree a tree?.

May be 'Tree' doesn't exist in the drop-down list of excuses that can be input into the system, and the system might not allow free text.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Don't TOC's have 'central controls'? Someone re-organises trains, traincrew, train routeing, ordering replacement buses, messages for platform staff etc. In the same room should be someone with a responsibility of informing the public.

Trouble is, when the proverbial is hitting the fan, Central Control cannot handle the vast amount of information being provided, or they have to prioritise what they deal with. Also, if there are a lot of separate or connected incidents or delays happening all at the same time, Central Control cannot always be informed, as staff cannot get always get through to them, or might not have the time to attempt to get through. And of course, the TOCs wouldn't want any Tom, Dick or Harry inputting information into systems that put information out into the public domain, as information would have to be vetted first!

 

[hwl]

I have noticed during the recent weather disruptions that TOCs Journey Checks are referring to "Obstruction on Line". If it's a tree as in almost all of these cases, why don't they call a tree a tree?.

Garden sheds and trampolines have also featured in the last month.

 

[PHILIPE]

May be 'Tree' doesn't exist in the drop-down list of excuses that can be input into the system, and the system might not allow free text.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Trouble is, when the proverbial is hitting the fan, Central Control cannot handle the vast amount of information being provided, or they have to prioritise what they deal with. Also, if there are a lot of separate or connected incidents or delays happening all at the same time, Central Control cannot always be informed, as staff cannot get always get through to them, or might not have the time to attempt to get through. And of course, the TOCs wouldn't want any Tom, Dick or Harry inputting information into systems that put information out into the public domain, as information would have to be vetted first!

A stumbling block to providing good information is that Network Rail are trying to deal with train movements and TOCs with their passengers. Another problem due to the dysfunctional Railway although there are now Centres where Network Rail and TOC staff work together for the common good. It would be far better if one person was in overall charge.

 

[LBSCR Times]

A stumbling block to providing good information is that Network Rail are trying to deal with train movements and TOCs with their passengers. Another problem due to the dysfunctional Railway although there are now Centres where Network Rail and TOC staff work together for the common good. It would be far better if one person was in overall charge.

Unfortunately, NR are often more interested in minimising minutes delay that they have to pay out for, especially if it is their area at fault......

 

[infobleep]

Unfortunately, NR are often more interested in minimising minutes delay that they have to pay out for, especially if it is their area at fault......

Well there is a simple answer to this. Shut down all the sites that provide rail travel information. Make everyone refer to printed timetables. Then they can't be accused of not giving out information about delays and saying trains are cancelled when in fact they are not.

 

[DownSouth]

Well there is a simple answer to this. Shut down all the sites that provide rail travel information. Make everyone refer to printed timetables. Then they can't be accused of not giving out information about delays and saying trains are cancelled when in fact they are not.

Yes, giving people a timetable sounds like a perfectly logical way to solve the question of how to inform people of what is/isn't happening when the trains are not running to plan.

Just tell people there are no American tanks and Baghdad and to go about their daily business right?