Accurate, correct, sensible information to the public

[LBSCR Times]

There are too many organisations duplicating information, and each one wants their own empire.
Cancellations, alterations etc should be done by the relevant TOC and posted on their website. Some TOC's do this (or on their own Journey Check), but others, such as Southern, don't show any cancellations etc, and rely on NRE etc, but these are fed from the NR system, so if NR don't cancel the train in Trust, then it shows as running. However, TOC's, such as FCC, list cancellations and delays, where possible, on their own website, and this is more accurate than the NR / NRE information, as the Information Controllers input this and it goes direct to their website.

 

[Surreytraveller]

There are too many organisations duplicating information, and each one wants their own empire.
Cancellations, alterations etc should be done by the relevant TOC and posted on their website. Some TOC's do this (or on their own Journey Check), but others, such as Southern, don't show any cancellations etc, and rely on NRE etc, but these are fed from the NR system, so if NR don't cancel the train in Trust, then it shows as running. However, TOC's, such as FCC, list cancellations and delays, where possible, on their own website, and this is more accurate than the NR / NRE information, as the Information Controllers input this and it goes direct to their website.

I do notice this too. Also, if a delay is the fault of someone else, then that will be played upon e.g if a Southern train is delayed by a FCC failure, Southern will make a big song and dance about it being FCCs fault. If it is Southern's fault, however, they will say as little as they can get away with. Similarly, if the delays are Network Rail's fault, there seems to be no rush to getting the services back to normal, but Southern will do everything they can to sort it out if it is their fault.

Just my observations.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

There are too many organisations duplicating information, and each one wants their own empire.
Cancellations, alterations etc should be done by the relevant TOC and posted on their website. Some TOC's do this (or on their own Journey Check), but others, such as Southern, don't show any cancellations etc, and rely on NRE etc, but these are fed from the NR system, so if NR don't cancel the train in Trust, then it shows as running. However, TOC's, such as FCC, list cancellations and delays, where possible, on their own website, and this is more accurate than the NR / NRE information, as the Information Controllers input this and it goes direct to their website.

Spot on!

Just like ticket retailing websites and those comparison websites, all claiming to be unique / special when in fact the data comes from somewhere else and they just have their own fancy front end. A lot of effort put in by lots of people at great expense, which merely duplicates what is already there. Far better for the resources to be pooled. Then again, competition does drive up standards and move things forward. What would a BR website have looked like, would they have retailed tickets on-line?

Regarding train running information, this needs to be sorted. Train running information should come directly from NR, as their systems know where the trains are at any given point (generally speaking). Proposed alterations to future times, replacement buses, ticket validities on other routes should come from TOC's as they are responsible. All should be a simple 'mash-up' to a single website, or if to NRE, and TOc, and Journey Check etc, then it should be the same messsage across them all.

As a start, perhaps NRE should attribute the information i.e. is it their input or a TOC's - at least you would then know who has put up good / bad information. Something along the lines of 'Southern have advised that.....'.

 

[Bushy]

How about the ubiquitous airline announcement "your plane is delayed due to the late arrival of the incoming aircraft".

Often we don't even get as much information as that, due to the inability of systems behind the CIS to link outgoing services with the incoming services that provide the stock. This has been discussed in another thread, but it did annoy me that at St. Pancras on Christmas Eve, SE were unable to provide information that I could get by checking RTT. I can understand staff not being able to check incoming services at busy stations/times but SEHS were only running on one route at the time and trains were few and far between.

Regards

Bushy

 

[Tom]

such as Southern, don't show any cancellations etc, and rely on NRE etc, but these are fed from the NR system, so if NR don't cancel the train in Trust, then it shows as running.

NRE's system does not use any cancellation information from TRUST

 

[HowardGWR]

I feel sorry for SWT today on the Exeter route. They have had the most horrendous time of it, yet have tried their best to inform, even though things, mainly floods, were changing from hour to hour, making already processed messages OOD almost immediately.

 

[455driver]

I feel sorry for SWT today on the Exeter route. They have had the most horrendous time of it, yet have tried their best to inform, even though things, mainly floods, were changing from hour to hour, making already processed messages OOD almost immediately.

This is the big problem, sometimes we just have to wing it and see how far we can get.

 

[Atishyou]

NRE's system does not use any cancellation information from TRUST

Yes they do.

They take a daily download of the timetable, so any changes made in TPS (what used to be TSDB) are fed through on a daily basis.

CIF file changes are also uploaded into their Darwin system for any short notice timetable changes that can't be put in to TPS.

Also, the TOCs amending trains and the accuracy on NRE-if these are done correctly in Tyrell, they update the NRE info as that takes a direct feed. It works for our updates.

 

[HowardGWR]

This is the big problem, sometimes we just have to wing it and see how far we can get.

Mind you, today is a shocker. Buses between Andover and Woking the whole day and not a word on the SWT web site journey check. No info on engineering work so a complete mystery.

 

[infobleep]

Yes they do.

They take a daily download of the timetable, so any changes made in TPS (what used to be TSDB) are fed through on a daily basis.

CIF file changes are also uploaded into their Darwin system for any short notice timetable changes that can't be put in to TPS.

Also, the TOCs amending trains and the accuracy on NRE-if these are done correctly in Tyrell, they update the NRE info as that takes a direct feed. It works for our updates.

If they take info from TPS, how much real train times lists trains that are running, where as NRE list them as cancelled. Is it due to the fact NRE only takes the feed once, where as real time trains is just that, train info in real time. Of course people, not in the know, would be assuming that the live departure boards on NRE were real time but perhaps they are not. May be real time train isn't either. However it is far more accurate it seems.

I'm only basing this on one train that was shown as cancelled over Christmas period, when it wasn't. However it was showing in Real time trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Mind you, today is a shocker. Buses between Andover and Woking the whole day and not a word on the SWT web site journey check. No info on engineering work so a complete mystery.

Why do train companies like mysteries from time to time? Surely in this modern day and age, they would want to be open and honest. It only reflects badly on them when they do this. It only helps to undo all the good work they do the rest of the time.

 

[OxtedL]

Mind you, today is a shocker. Buses between Andover and Woking the whole day and not a word on the SWT web site journey check. No info on engineering work so a complete mystery.

Don't know if this a genuine query or just a comment about the lack of a mention on Journey Check, but the SWT website does say that it's engineering work.

Buses replace trains between Woking and Southampton Central / Andover on Sunday 5 January 2014
Description
Engineering work is taking place between Farnborough Main and St Denys / Andover until 16:00 and also between Basingstoke and St Denys / Andover from 16:00, closing all lines.
Some trains are cancelled, retimed, diverted or will start / terminate at alternative stations.
All day, buses replace trains between Basingstoke and Southampton Central and also between Romsey and Southampton Central.
Until 16:00, buses replace trains between Woking and Southampton Central and also between Woking and Andover.
From 16:00, buses replace trains between Basingstoke and Andover.
Also from 16:00, additional trains will run between London Waterloo and Basingstoke.
Journey times may be extended by up to 40 minutes.

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/engineeringwork.aspx?date=05/01/2014

 

[HowardGWR]

Don't know if this a genuine query or just a comment about the lack of a mention on Journey Check, but the SWT website does say that it's engineering work.

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/engineeringwork.aspx?date=05/01/2014

Thanks very much - it's only in the very small print that the buses are mentioned between Andover and Woking (and Basingstoke).

I read the main heading and did not conclude that it had anything to do with trains between Exeter to Salisbury and Waterloo, which ought to have earned a separate entry. In fact those pax are going to be severely delayed of course.

I'll bet if I didn't spot it, the chances that a man-in-the-street would is remote - nasty surprises for them then today.

 

[infobleep]

I don't know if there is a ruling which says CIS can't be updated on Sundays. However yesterday they had finished the weather related damage work around Liss.

Yet this evening it was still referring to on the CIS. Yet the other screens were correctly listing the train times. Surely they must be able to update CIS on a Sunday. I know they have less staff and the tickets are priced at off peak prices but it can't be that difficult can it? I don't know how the systems and organisation works. It may be that they don't employ anyone who can work CIS on Sundays.

 

[LBSCR Times]

I don't know if there is a ruling which says CIS can't be updated on Sundays. However yesterday they had finished the weather related damage work around Liss.

Yet this evening it was still referring to on the CIS. Yet the other screens were correctly listing the train times. Surely they must be able to update CIS on a Sunday. I know they have less staff and the tickets are priced at off peak prices but it can't be that difficult can it? I don't know how the systems and organisation works. It may be that they don't employ anyone who can work CIS on Sundays.

The systems can be updated at any time of the day / week.
It's just a case of the staff actually doing it....

 

[Atishyou]

If they take info from TPS, how much real train times lists trains that are running, where as NRE list them as cancelled. Is it due to the fact NRE only takes the feed once, where as real time trains is just that, train info in real time. Of course people, not in the know, would be assuming that the live departure boards on NRE were real time but perhaps they are not. May be real time train isn't either. However it is far more accurate it seems.

I'm only basing this on one train that was shown as cancelled over Christmas period, when it wasn't. However it was showing in Real time trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Why do train companies like mysteries from time to time? Surely in this modern day and age, they would want to be open and honest. It only reflects badly on them when they do this. It only helps to undo all the good work they do the rest of the time.

Timetable uploads are done once a day by Network Rail. If a train is showing as cancelled when it is not, then it will have been cancelled by the relevant TOC in their system and fed through to the NRE system.

The live departure boards are indeed live, taking their feed from Toc CIS systems and darwin. (Something I presume real time trains doesn't do but I don't know) .

Despite what appwars to be popular opinion amongst many on here, when I visited the team, I saw that they had no reason to amend trains unless requested to do so.

Think about it, why would NRES staff amend timetables/trains unless they are asked to? As they look after the whole Country, that would be a massive job.

If you spot an error, I'd just let them know via twitter. I have contacted them about things which we've amended in darwin only to find another TOC has changed it too. But I'm not going to turn this into a moan about industry colleagues. We need to work together after all.

A good example is a quick check at Blaenau Ffestiniog for example, real time trains shows nothing, whereas NRES live departure boards show a cancellation and a bus replacement.

I'm not saying I've not found mistakes in their info before, but I've met some of the team and they do a cracking job. I just dislike when people (not aimed at you infobleep) bitch and moan with no knowledge.

In the railway, situations change in the blink of an eye. Information that has been constantly the same for weeks can be out of date in seconds.

I always seek to clarify rather than criticise.

 

[The Planner]

TPS is not TSDB, it sort of replaced it as part of the wider planning system whereas Trainplan fed into TSDB before it.

 

[Tom]

Yes they do.

They take a daily download of the timetable, so any changes made in TPS (what used to be TSDB) are fed through on a daily basis.

CIF file changes are also uploaded into their Darwin system for any short notice timetable changes that can't be put in to TPS.

Also, the TOCs amending trains and the accuracy on NRE-if these are done correctly in Tyrell, they update the NRE info as that takes a direct feed. It works for our updates.

You are correct but that is not what I was referring to. As you have noted, the cancellations made in TPS are carried through. What I referred to was TRUST, which Darwin does not use for any cancellation information.

A good example is a quick check at Blaenau Ffestiniog for example, real time trains shows nothing, whereas NRES live departure boards show a cancellation and a bus replacement.

This is because bus services are not put into TRUST through the VSTP process (as it is unnecessary). The trains should have been cancelled (or had a change of origin applied, etc.) within TRUST as well but this clearly did not happen to those services when you looked at them.

It is extremely difficult to get hold of Tyrell and CIS data because NRE claim to hold a monopoly over this data and have difficult charging and licensing regimes. Those regimes make it difficult for people like myself to a) use their data and, more importantly, b) augment their data with information from other sources (it is explicitly prohibited in the contracts they offer.)

If they take info from TPS, how much real train times lists trains that are running, where as NRE list them as cancelled. Is it due to the fact NRE only takes the feed once, where as real time trains is just that, train info in real time. Of course people, not in the know, would be assuming that the live departure boards on NRE were real time but perhaps they are not. May be real time train isn't either. However it is far more accurate it seems.

I'm only basing this on one train that was shown as cancelled over Christmas period, when it wasn't. However it was showing in Real time trains.

Realtime Trains uses feeds solely from Network Rail. Normally you'd expect them to know what is running given that it is their infrastructure network - but there are some instances where the data will be wrong in instances I've highlighted above.

I normally find that TOCs concentrate on cancelling in Tyrell, etc., first and then dealing with TRUST later - which is fine but while NRE persist in creating a two tier market and trying to marginalise those of us who use data from Network Rail it makes it challenging. In any case I tend to find that the data from Network Rail is more 'optimistic' while the data from NRE is 'pessimistic'.

 

[Atishyou]

You are correct but that is not what I was referring to. As you have noted, the cancellations made in TPS are carried through. What I referred to was TRUST, which Darwin does not use for any cancellation information.

This is because bus services are not put into TRUST through the VSTP process (as it is unnecessary). The trains should have been cancelled (or had a change of origin applied, etc.) within TRUST as well but this clearly did not happen to those services when you looked at them.

It is extremely difficult to get hold of Tyrell and CIS data because NRE claim to hold a monopoly over this data and have difficult charging and licensing regimes. Those regimes make it difficult for people like myself to a) use their data and, more importantly, b) augment their data with information from other sources (it is explicitly prohibited in the contracts they offer.)

Realtime Trains uses feeds solely from Network Rail. Normally you'd expect them to know what is running given that it is their infrastructure network - but there are some instances where the data will be wrong in instances I've highlighted above.

I normally find that TOCs concentrate on cancelling in Tyrell, etc., first and then dealing with TRUST later - which is fine but while NRE persist in creating a two tier market and trying to marginalise those of us who use data from Network Rail it makes it challenging. In any case I tend to find that the data from Network Rail is more 'optimistic' while the data from NRE is 'pessimistic'.

It sounds like you have some unresolved issues with NRE. I'm not sure what position you hold in the railway, if any at all, but on this basis we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Tom]

There is little wrong with what they do as a service - which is where you're coming from. What they do as a business entity is another question. ORR are aware of it and have done reviews into it - indeed there is one ongoing now.

If it weren't for their general refusal to open up their data (in order to allow others to use it in ways they don't), then we wouldn't have sites such as Open Train Times, Raildar or Realtime Trains now.

 

[LBSCR Times]

I normally find that TOCs concentrate on cancelling in Tyrell, etc., first and then dealing with TRUST later - which is fine but while NRE persist in creating a two tier market and trying to marginalise those of us who use data from Network Rail it makes it challenging. In any case I tend to find that the data from Network Rail is more 'optimistic' while the data from NRE is 'pessimistic'.

It is Network Rail that update Trust, not the TOC's.
Hence, if the TOC cancels a train on Tyrell but for whatever reason the NR Train Running Controller is not aware, then the cancellation will not be entered in to Trust.

 

[Tom]

That only serves to highlight the problem with which this thread is all about.

 

[jon0844]

Is that why some trains get stuck at the top of departure boards for the entire day? Not something I've seen for a while, but most annoying!