Combining Oyster Travelcard & The Key

[mattdickinson]

Does anyone have any opinions as to whether the following would be i) valid and ii) accepted?

Using an Oystercard loaded with a Z1-6 Travelcard and a Southern Key card with a return from Coulsdon South to Gatwick Airport, on the Gatwick Express?

 

[bb21]

I could be wrong, but isn't it a condition of use for The Key that you need to "touch in"?

 

[LexyBoy]

Indeed:

Where single/return or season tickets are held on the key, a journey must be started by touching a smartcard reader, failure to do so could lead to a penalty fare being issued

 

[tsr]

The key is not officially available at Coulsdon South:

https://www.southernrailway.com/smart-card/routemap

...although I understand the barriers are technically compatible.

 

[mattdickinson]

The key is not officially available at Coulsdon South:

https://www.southernrailway.com/smart-card/routemap

...although I understand the barriers are technically compatible.

The Southern Key website will sell you the Coulsdon South - Gatwick ticket.

The T&Cs don't mention touching out, so maybe one would be ok travelling north.

 

[radamfi]

The Southern Key website will sell you the Coulsdon South - Gatwick ticket.

The T&Cs don't mention touching out, so maybe one would be ok travelling north.

https://www.southernrailway.com/smart-card/faq/

You are required to always touch in and touch out on every journey as per the conditions of use. If you do not touch in and touch out we reserve the right to disable your key.

 

[andrewkeith5]

Indeed, it is compulsory to touch in and out on your journey - otherwise the ticket won't be validated on your card.

Also, when you buy online, you have to collect the ticket from your departure station as you touch in - hence if you didn't, when you got to your destination there'd be an awkward conversation! (or probably not actually, Southern have screwed up so much with the Key that most of their staff hate it. It's sad really )

 

[yorkie]

Systems like "The Key" are an attack on our rights. I am therefore boycotting them.

You will need to purchase a paper ticket from either Coulsdon South or Boundary Zone 6.

 

[bakerstreet]

"You are required to always touch in and touch out on every journey as per the conditions of use. If you do not touch in and touch out we reserve the right to disable your key."

So what happens to split ticketing (even split ticketing for convenience rather than to save money) when paper tickets are consigned to history?
Oh dear.

 

[Clip]

Systems like "The Key" are an attack on our rights. I am therefore boycotting them.

.

Would you care to eleborate on this please(obviously in a new thread)

Taht is some statement

 

[bb21]

Would you care to eleborate on this please(obviously in a new thread)

Taht is some statement

I think this thread is a good demonstration of how passenger rights can be undermined gradually. The Key, for a start, is removing the possibility of a Condition 19(c) split in its current form by requiring the passenger to touch in/out at the split point.

 

[RJ]

Would you care to eleborate on this please(obviously in a new thread)

Taht is some statement

Yorkie has a point, as explained in the following post by bb21. I'm in the ticket office today and see that my TiS has been filled up with "Smart ODT" entries which duplicate the corresponding paper ticket entries. Twice as many options to trawl through!

 

[Clip]

I think this thread is a good demonstration of how passenger rights can be undermined gradually. The Key, for a start, is removing the possibility of a Condition 19(c) split in its current form by requiring the passenger to touch in/out at the split point.

Thats actually a point I had not thought about when making my post(it was late). Has anyone challenged them on this point yet then? Or if they are not going to budge on it then dont get one. They will not be allowed to swap over fully to the Key unless it complies with NCoC. Though they would face an uphill battle to get a change to it for sure.

Has anyone mentioned it then?

 

[Stats]

I asked Southern the question regarding using a combination of a paper ticket and a ticket on the Key several weeks ago. I am waiting for their reply.

Don't forget that it is also a condition of use for Oyster that you must touch in/out on every journey but that is not enforced.

 

[tsr]

Don't forget that it is also a condition of use for Oyster that you must touch in/out on every journey but that is not enforced.

But it is - automatically or by RPIs or similar - unless you are travelling within the boundaries of a pre-loaded product which has the conditions of only needing to touch in or out.

 

[andrewkeith5]

Whilst I agree that it is potentially a problem, is it really worth making a fuss over what limitations the Key has right now?

It is clear that paper tickets will be around for many years to come- it will ne impossible to rid the network of them at least until you can get one from the station... I still use paper tickets a lot, but for my regular, shorter journeys (normally Gatwick to Crawley) I find it much easier to use reusable plastic than two pieces of paper for every single journey.

The Key has its place - but for now at least, it is a very limited place...

 

[yorkie]

Whilst I agree that it is potentially a problem, is it really worth making a fuss over what limitations the Key has right now?

Absolutely yes. It is very important to do so now.

It is clear that paper tickets will be around for many years to come- it will ne impossible to rid the network of them at least until you can get one from the station... I still use paper tickets a lot, but for my regular, shorter journeys (normally Gatwick to Crawley) I find it much easier to use reusable plastic than two pieces of paper for every single journey.

If that choice continues to be available, then great, but I suspect that they will want to withdraw off peak fares from paper at some point.

The Key has its place - but for now at least, it is a very limited place...

And people need to be made aware of any issues, so that they can make an informed choice.

Perhaps someone should ask Southern whether or not the touching in & out condition replaces the NRCoC? Or if it only applies when using The Key for your entire journey?

The conditions, as worded, are unclear and should be clarified.

I do not believe that TOCs should be able to get out of the NRCoC by introducing more restrictive terms.

 

[John @ home]

Whilst I agree that it is potentially a problem, is it really worth making a fuss over what limitations the Key has right now?

Yes. For an example of long-term damage caused by failure to challenge a new system early enough, consider the National Routeing Guide. When the initial NRG was issued for consultation in 1995, neither the representatives of the train companies nor those of the passengers became aware at the appropriate time that the Guide was not fit for purpose. Once it was discovered that it was permitted to travel from Carlisle to Newcastle via Crewe, or from Loughborough to Birmingham via York, there were too many vested interests to tear up the Guide and start again. As a result, we have a massive, confusing and contradictory set of instructions, still not fit for purpose nearly 20 years later.

Let's not make the same mistake with the introduction of smart cards into railway ticketing.

It is clear that paper tickets will be around for many years to come

For some years, yes. In October 2013, DfT wrote:

Rail fares and ticketing: next steps

4.34 Once the network is fully smart equipped, we can realise the full potential of smart technology by withdrawing magnetic stripe paper tickets subject to the considerations detailed later in the section. We expect this transition to be complete within 10-15 years.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ta/file/249001/fares-ticketing-next-steps.pdf

But that does not mean that we can wait years before action is needed. The time to press for appropriate protection for passengers in a smart ticketing environment is now.

 

[LexyBoy]

The DfT is keen on smart ticketing, as are TOCs as it will help reduce staffing costs and improve revenue distribution. I would be surprised if the opportunity were not taken during implementation to erode legacy rights like break of journey, excesses and using a combination of tickets - whether this is done deliberately or (as here) due to technical limitations for which there's little will to fix.

 

[Hadders]

I agree with yorkie in that it's very important that we kick up a fuss now about this.

I can foresee the following scenario happening:

TOC's introduce smart ticketing that must be touched in/out which effectively removes a number of rights contained in the NRCoC but TOC's say it's not a problem as paper tickets will still be available.

Paper ticket prices are increased at a faster rate than smart tickets. Sales of paper tickets fall as a result.

Paper tickets are withdrawn as TOC's say there is no demand for them, everyone prefers the convenience of smart tickets etc.

The result is a number of rights in the NRCoC are removed by stealth. This has already happened to a large extend in London with the introduction of Oyster.

I am not against smart ticketing in principle but it must not be used as a way to reduce passengers rights. We should be campaigning about this situation now!

 

[34D]

Let us not forget that in due course, ITSO will replace Oyster (this is, I think, already happening with ITSO on Prestige).

This should ultimately mean that the same ITSO card can hold both products.

Recall that Oyster and ITSO are just mediums, the same as a piece of card

 

[Hadders]

Let us not forget that in due course, ITSO will replace Oyster (this is, I think, already happening with ITSO on Prestige).

This should ultimately mean that the same ITSO card can hold both products.

Recall that Oyster and ITSO are just mediums, the same as a piece of card

But Oyster and ITSO are not the same as paper if you are required to touch in and out with them.

 

[sheff1]

Perhaps someone should ask Southern whether or not the touching in & out condition replaces the NRCoC? Or if it only applies when using The Key for your entire journey?

I asked Southern the question regarding using a combination of a paper ticket and a ticket on the Key several weeks ago. I am waiting for their reply..

I have just seen this https://twitter.com/Chinley1234/status/409644066331054080 which may answer things.

 

[LexyBoy]

Recall that Oyster and ITSO are just mediums, the same as a piece of card

Indeed, but:
1. The medium may have additional conditons of use over and above those of the ticket;
2. There's no requirement for all tickets to be available on all media.

Off Peak fares within London are only available on Oyster for example, which means the ability to buy discounted tickets for companions with a Gold Card is lost, and also that ticket offices don't have to offer the full range of fares to customers without the correct medium.

As I've said before, what I expect to see is the retention of paper tickets, but only for Anytime fares priced at a premium over the plastic version.

 

[Deerfold]

I have just seen this https://twitter.com/Chinley1234/status/409644066331054080 which may answer things.

Surprised to see @SouthernRailUK suggesting the twitterer join them in a state of undress.

 

[sheff1]

Surprised to see @SouthernRailUK suggesting the twitterer join them in a state of undress.

Never be surprised at anything from Southern

 

[button_boxer]

a pre-loaded product which has the conditions of only needing to touch in or out.

Are there any such products? The Oyster implementation does not penalize you if you fail to touch everywhere you should when travelling entirely within travelcard zones but the conditions still state that you must always touch in and out, with no distinction between travelcard and PAYG use.

 

[tsr]

Are there any such products? The Oyster implementation does not penalize you if you fail to touch everywhere you should when travelling entirely within travelcard zones but the conditions still state that you must always touch in and out, with no distinction between travelcard and PAYG use.

Travelcards are the products I mean.

You are right that the implementation of the system means it may well not penalise you. But one false move or misunderstood touch on a reader, and you run the risk of an RPI charging you a PF... or, I suppose, there's the risk of the automated system not recognising the route.

RPIs and LU staff to whom I have spoken do seem to be in agreement with me that Travelcard holders can only be made to touch in or out, but are obliged to recommend you touch in and out. I agree with the former definition, and don't agree that it's a good idea not to touch in or out.

 

[LexyBoy]

But one false move or misunderstood touch on a reader, and you run the risk of an RPI charging you a PF... or, I suppose, there's the risk of the automated system not recognising the route.

I don't quite understand - if you stay within your zones, you can touch, or not, any reader without any worries.

On the other hand, if you travel outwith your zones without having touched in, wherever you started your journey, you will be liable for a PF/prosecution (or maximum fare when touching out).

The recommendation to always touch in and out is sensible as it means you won't be in trouble if you change your plans or travel via a route going outside of your zones, and is also what is required by the Oyster conditions of use.

 

[Tibbs]

I don't quite understand - if you stay within your zones, you can touch, or not, any reader without any worries.

On the other hand, if you travel outwith your zones without having touched in, wherever you started your journey, you will be liable for a PF/prosecution (or maximum fare when touching out).

The recommendation to always touch in and out is sensible as it means you won't be in trouble if you change your plans or travel via a route going outside of your zones, and is also what is required by the Oyster conditions of use.

I always touch in when going home, as Oyster now extends past my season ticket, should I miss my stop and need to touch out later on it won't cause me issues. Going in I tend not to bother, as there's usually a crowd of people trying to touch in and I want to get to my spot so I get a seat!