Unfair unpaid fare??

[Chew Chew]

Mercedes! Cheap rubbish. Get yourself an Audi! Ha ha.

A Lexus would be better, the Japanese Mercedes.

 

[Flamingo]

Just to clarify, an unpaid fare notice is only offered for the full anytime fare (unless exceptional circumstances). The discounted fare for Advance ticket irregularities is only available if the passenger pays for it there and then.

 

[Nowayjose]

Just to clarify, an unpaid fare notice is only offered for the full anytime fare (unless exceptional circumstances). The discounted fare for Advance ticket irregularities is only available if the passenger pays for it there and then.

So just to clarify then, the conductor should've have given me the option to pay £84 when I was on the train?
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Mercedes! Cheap rubbish. Get yourself an Audi! Ha ha.

You obviously know more about trains than cars lol
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Can you explain why you, if knowing you had paid for a ticket that has no flexibility, expect that you should be dealt with differently to how any other passenger would be treated onboard a service without a valid ticket? Having your cake and eating it comes to mind. You were given the chance to redeem your error at Colchester, but you decided that you would push it.

And no, the fact that the other train has Advance tickets on sale for the same price does not matter. You paid a reduced fare in exchange for losing your flexibility. You can't have it both ways.

If you read my original post, I state that I did not realise our tickets had a fixed return time. As you clearly did not read my post properly, perhaps you can appreciate how easy it is to miss these things
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FCC does not serve Diss, though?

Hi, just to clarify we live just outside thetford, which 18 miles from diss and 22 miles from downham market, hence why we have the choice between the 2 services.

 

[yorkie]

...or pay for 2 new tickets for the 13:00 train at a total cost of £118.40....

Sorry I missed this earlier, but you didn't mention what ticket type you were charged for. I see you were charged the cost of 2 x Anytime Single (SOS) tickets, which is incorrect, you should have been charged the cost of 2 x Off Peak Single (SVS) tickets at £42 each. This cost assumes no Railcard(s) is/are held.

I would refuse to pay any more than £84, simply enclose a cheque for that amount and state you are not required to pay any more. I'd lodge a complaint with Passenger Focus, as Greater Anglia have done this before, and they promised to follow correct procedures.

I'm not sure if Greater Anglia's refusal to follow industry standards is a franchise failure or not, but you could try contacting the DfT to report that Greater Anglia are not engaging in correct practice.

Will Greater Anglia be refunding everyone affected, or only those people who spot that they have been charged incorrectly? The latter, I am sure, as most people won't have a clue that the charge is not correct!

Just to clarify, an unpaid fare notice is only offered for the full anytime fare (unless exceptional circumstances). The discounted fare for Advance ticket irregularities is only available if the passenger pays for it there and then.

I don't believe that is the correct procedure. It seems that there are some TOCs who are overcharging customers. I recommend anyone who is incorrectly charged contests it, and reports the matter to Passenger Focus, ATOC and the DfT.

 

[Nowayjose]

I don't think there is anything more than can be said until the OP returns, that is if they do actually return.

Whilst GA suffer no financial loss as a result of the OP choosing to travel on a ticket earlier than the one they were booked on, the fact is the OP bought a ticket at a cheaper price (being an inflexible ticket) and they chose to break the condition of the ticket: that they must travel on the booked train. Unfortunately the OP dug a hole for themselves when they chose NOT to take the opportunity to travel on the booked train when given a chance to by the guard/revenue staff. I'd suggest if the unpaid fares notice is not paid that GA may escalate the matter into a prosecution.

Following advice on here, I have agreed to pay my upfn, but have challenged the amount based on the comments on this thread. However, just wanted to clarify that I did not refuse to get off the train at Colchester, I agreed too. It was only when I could not get hold of the people meeting us at the other end that we starting to worry about getting off. To be honest there was a very genuine child care issue that meant we needed to get back to meet our lift that I am not going to detail here, but I did explain it to the conductor and I also offered to send evidence to GA to verify.

I also should point out that I did offer to pay the difference between the £118.40 upfn and our £66.00 return tickets, which I think was reasonable, but this was declined.

 

[yorkie]

Following advice on here, I have agreed to pay my upfn, but have challenged the amount based on the comments on this thread. However, just wanted to clarify that I did not refuse to get off the train at Colchester, I agreed too. It was only when I could not get hold of the people meeting us at the other end that we starting to worry about getting off. To be honest there was a very genuine child care issue that meant we needed to get back to meet our lift that I am not going to detail here, but I did explain it to the conductor and I also offered to send evidence to GA to verify.

Childcare issues don't affect the validity or correct course of actions in this case, but what I would say is that if the guard was approached before departure, and the question was asked for a favour, then the chances of discretion being shown are greatly increased, compared to being 'caught' on the train.

I also should point out that I did offer to pay the difference between the £118.40 upfn and our £66.00 return tickets, which I think was reasonable, but this was declined.

I agree it can be seen as "reasonable" but it's not what the rules say. You are liable to pay £84, but nothing more than that.

I suppose you could say something along the lines of you are considering reporting the matter to Passenger Focus, ATOC, and DfT and will lodge formal complaints to all three bodies, however if they waive the charge completely, you will not take that action, and see what they say. I have no idea if that approach would be effective or not.

 

[34D]

On the 8th November my wife and I took the 14:17 Greater Anglia service from Diss to Liverpool Street, this train was cancelled, and we had to take the 14:47 instead.

If you were delayed by more than 30 minutes then you may be entitled to Delay Repay compensation.

I appealed my unpaid fare notice to the IAS on the 11th November, and got a letter back on the 25th to say my appeal had been accepted. On the 3rd December, they wrote to me again to say the letter dated the 25th November was sent in error, and my appeal had in fact been rejected. I have written to GA to complain, as I had no intention of dodging a fare, and in fact had paid the full fare price, but for the later train, should I dig my heels in, or pay the £118.40?

Thanks

In my personal view, this is the most chance you have of having this matter dropped (or potentially to winning in Court). Keep that letter safe. Scan it. Photocopy it.

You also mention you have written to GA - have they responded yet?

 

[yorkie]

If you were delayed by more than 30 minutes then you may be entitled to Delay Repay compensation.

I looked into this, he was delayed by approx 20 minutes, so no compensation due.

 

[jon0844]

I agree that the mistake of sending out two contradictory letters should see GA just drop this issue. I wonder how many other people they've done this too?

Even though I actually think it would have been a mistake to uphold the appeal, the fact is that they did (even if for a short while) and should therefore honour it and not try and backtrack and continue to pursue the money.

 

[island]

If you are going to pay, my suggestion would be to do so by enclosing two cheques, one for £84 and the other for £34.40, with a letter stating that you understand that the rules state a passenger on the wrong train with an advance ticket is liable to pay the fare they would have paid at the booking office immediately before travel, but that bearing in mind the tendency of IPFAS to charge massive "administration" fees on top of unpaid UPFNs, if they do not accept this line of thinking you are also paying the full amount due under protest and will be seeking the return of £34.40.

 

[Flamingo]

I don't believe that is the correct procedure. It seems that there are some TOCs who are overcharging customers. I recommend anyone who is incorrectly charged contests it, and reports the matter to Passenger Focus, ATOC and the DfT.

UFN are only issued for the Anytime (undiscounted) fares, unless exceptional circumstances. I would not consider this to be one.

Once the OP refused to buy a new ticket and remained on the train, they were then travelling on an invalid ticket, and if a UFN has to be issued, there is no entitlement to a discount for railcards, cheaper time of the day, etc. (The same as a SILK ticket). If they had been sold an Anytime ticket that would be incorrect, but the UFN was issued correctly.

Maybe one of our Revenue Inspectors might back me up with this?

 

[bb21]

If you read my original post, I state that I did not realise our tickets had a fixed return time. As you clearly did not read my post properly, perhaps you can appreciate how easy it is to miss these things

I did read your original post, and replied accordingly. I will now dissect your original post (and some subsequent ones) for you.

About 20 minutes into the journey, the conductor checked our tickets, and pointed out that we were on the wrong train. He gave us the choice to either get off at Colchester, or pay for 2 new tickets for the 13:00 train at a total cost of £118.40. We agreed to get off the train at Colchester, but after making several calls to try and rearrange our lift at diss station, I decided to phone GA customer services.

Had you got off the train at Colchester as you originally agreed to, none of this would have happened, but somehow you decided against adhering to what you agreed to.

I explained the situation, and the service agent explained that as our train had been delayed the day before, the conductor could at his discretion waive the additional fare, and allow us to stay on the train. I asked the customer service agent if he could speak to the conductor, and he said he would be more than happy to do so. I walked down the train and found the conductor, who flatly refused to speak to his colleague, as he said he had already made up his mind. He said he knew he could waive our fare, but he was not going to. I asked if there was any reason for this, and he said no, that is just what I have decided.

That is exactly what it is - discretion. It is to be exercised by the guard, and not something to be demanded. You had agreed to get off at Colchester and matter closed as far as he was concerned, yet you then wanted to use Customer Service to force him to use discretion. I'm not surprised that you were not given it. It is called "the attitude test" - one which you not only failed on the day, but as far as I am concerned, here too.

In fact, had you asked for permission before boarding he may well have said yes. I have done this quite a few times and only once was I told to wait an hour for my booked train.

At this point, I said that I was really not happy about leaving the train, it was empty, and the price we paid for our ticket was exactly the same for the advanced ticket on the 13:00 train. The conductor then issued me with an unpaid fare notice for the £118.40', as I refused to get off the train.

So you now decided that you would complain because you are not getting what you want?

I appealed my unpaid fare notice to the IAS on the 11th November, and got a letter back on the 25th to say my appeal had been accepted. On the 3rd December, they wrote to me again to say the letter dated the 25th November was sent in error, and my appeal had in fact been rejected. I have written to GA to complain, as I had no intention of dodging a fare, and in fact had paid the full fare price, but for the later train, should I dig my heels in, or pay the £118.40?

When it is someone else's mistake, you are hellbent on pursuing them for it, yet when you made a mistake yourself prior to that, you wanted to try anything you can to avoid the consequences. Such double standards.

The way things developed in your case, it is no longer relevant whether you were aware prior to boarding whether your ticket was valid on an earlier train. You were given an opportunity to rectify the issue, but you decided that you would rather be cheeky than to follow the course of action you agreed to.

The really disappointing thing for me, is that I did not intentionally dodge a fare, in fact I paid the same price for the train I should have been on as the train I was on. The train I was on was almost empty, and greater anglia have not lost out financially by me getting on a different train. I made a mistake because I did not check a ticket, the IAS made a mistake in sending out a wrong letter it can happen to anyone!

... and now you are trying to justify your actions? You did not have a valid ticket for the train you were on, and that is that. You made a mistake. You were given a chance to redeem your error. You let that chance go. Simple as that. Stop trying to blame other people for your own mistakes.

The fact that customer services were 'wrong' is not my fault, if GA staff are contradicting each other, that is their issue not mine. If GA choose to throw paying customers off an empty train, I will revert back to my usual first capital connect service that operates an open return ticket for £33.50 return

Clearly if FCC are charging 50p more but offering flexibility, it is a no brainer.

A theme I can see throughout your posts is how you think not travelling on a valid ticket can be justified by a whole host of irrelevant excuses, but fundamentally you did not have a valid ticket. Pay your UPFN (with two cheques as already mentioned) and move on. You made a mistake. Accept it.

To be honest there was a very genuine child care issue that meant we needed to get back to meet our lift that I am not going to detail here, but I did explain it to the conductor and I also offered to send evidence to GA to verify.

I have no interest in speculating what you mean, but your original tickets were booked for the train half an hour later. Unless you made arrangements of your own accord based on travelling on the earlier train, I don't see how there would be an issue waiting half an hour at Colchester for your correct service. Either way, you can't blame someone else for your own mistake.

 

[Flamingo]

So just to clarify then, the conductor should've have given me the option to pay £84 when I was on the train?

Don't try to convince us that you would have paid this if it was offered. I am not prepared to accept your word alone for it that it was not offered.

If you read my original post, I state that I did not realise our tickets had a fixed return time.

Again, putting it bluntly, I don't believe this statement.

As pointed out by bb21 above, the OP's story has too many holes in it for them to make a convincing witness.

The two conflicting letters from GA will probably result in this being dropped, but I don't think that it deserves to be.

 

[Nowayjose]

I did read your original post, and replied accordingly. I will now dissect your original post (and some subsequent ones) for you.



Had you got off the train at Colchester as you originally agreed to, none of this would have happened, but somehow you decided against adhering to what you agreed to.



That is exactly what it is - discretion. It is to be exercised by the guard, and not something to be demanded. You had agreed to get off at Colchester and matter closed as far as he was concerned, yet you then wanted to use Customer Service to force him to use discretion. I'm not surprised that you were not given it. It is called "the attitude test" - one which you not only failed on the day, but as far as I am concerned, here too.

In fact, had you asked for permission before boarding he may well have said yes. I have done this quite a few times and only once was I told to wait an hour for my booked train.



So you now decided that you would complain because you are not getting what you want?



When it is someone else's mistake, you are hellbent on pursuing them for it, yet when you made a mistake yourself prior to that, you wanted to try anything you can to avoid the consequences. Such double standards.

The way things developed in your case, it is no longer relevant whether you were aware prior to boarding whether your ticket was valid on an earlier train. You were given an opportunity to rectify the issue, but you decided that you would rather be cheeky than to follow the course of action you agreed to.



... and now you are trying to justify your actions? You did not have a valid ticket for the train you were on, and that is that. You made a mistake. You were given a chance to redeem your error. You let that chance go. Simple as that. Stop trying to blame other people for your own mistakes.



Clearly if FCC are charging 50p more but offering flexibility, it is a no brainer.

A theme I can see throughout your posts is how you think not travelling on a valid ticket can be justified by a whole host of irrelevant excuses, but fundamentally you did not have a valid ticket. Pay your UPFN (with two cheques as already mentioned) and move on. You made a mistake. Accept it.



I have no interest in speculating what you mean, but your original tickets were booked for the train half an hour later. Unless you made arrangements of your own accord based on travelling on the earlier train, I don't see how there would be an issue waiting half an hour at Colchester for your correct service. Either way, you can't blame someone else for your own mistake.

Thanks for taking the time ti 'dissect' my post unfortunately I have NOT taken the time to read you comments. I am only thankful that I have a choice on how I will travel in future, and it will not be by train

 

[anme]

Thanks for taking the time ti 'dissect' my post unfortunately I have NOT taken the time to read you comments. I am only thankful that I have a choice on how I will travel in future, and it will not be by train

Enjoy the traffic and try not to run anyone over.

 

[jon0844]

How did you buy an advance ticket, where you'd need to select the time of travel (and possibly also what seats you want) and not realise it was for a specific train?

Do you ever book flights? I presume you don't pay for an open ticket.

Cutting off your nose to spite your face by taking to the car from now on is your choice. One I expect you'll soon come to regret - especially given how bad the traffic can be around there.

 

[bb21]

Thanks for taking the time ti 'dissect' my post unfortunately I have NOT taken the time to read you comments. I am only thankful that I have a choice on how I will travel in future, and it will not be by train

That is your choice. My posts are not only for your benefit. They are there so that other forum members can also learn from your experience.

 

[Flamingo]

How did you buy an advance ticket, where you'd need to select the time of travel (and possibly also what seats you want) and not realise it was for a specific train?

.

Easy. He's lying.

 

[Nowayjose]

Don't try to convince us that you would have paid this if it was offered. I am not prepared to accept your word alone for it that it was not offered.



Again, putting it bluntly, I don't believe this statement.

As pointed out by bb21 above, the OP's story has too many holes in it for them to make a convincing witness.

The two conflicting letters from GA will probably result in this being dropped, but I don't think that it deserves to be.

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, I am merely trying to clarify the fare that I should now pay. If I was offered the £84 fare on the day I wouldn't have paid it there and then but I did offer to pay the difference between the £118.40 and the £66.

You are right, I will be using my 2 conflicting letters to back up my appeal, as it does show that even train companies make mistakes, and If GA's error means they lose out on this upfn, then maybe they will take more care over their letter writing in the future

 

[Flamingo]

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, I am merely trying to clarify the fare that I should now pay. If I was offered the £84 fare on the day I wouldn't have paid it there and then but I did offer to pay the difference between the £118.40 and the £66.

You are right, I will be using my 2 conflicting letters to back up my appeal, as it does show that even train companies make mistakes, and If GA's error means they lose out on this upfn, then maybe they will take more care over their letter writing in the future

If you would care to read my post again, the £84 is only available if you pay it on the train.

Offering to pay the difference is as much good as offering £10 to the poor-box, it is not the correct fare.

You will probably get away this time, with the undeserved help of this forum.

Now go away and stop wasting everybody's time, there are people who might actually benefit from it.

 

[jon0844]

If GA's error means they lose out on this upfn, then maybe they will take more care over their letter writing in the future

Yes, hopefully. And you'll have been very lucky, because you'll have 'won' only because of that mistake.

 

[bb21]

I think this thread has run its course, as the OP has made his mind up.

Paying the difference in fare is an option only at the origin station, provided that the time of the first reserved leg has not yet passed. You passed that opportunity, so it is no longer an option on the train.

If you refused to pay the £84 onboard, you would be issued with the UPFN, and the policy of some TOCs is that only full fare tickets are issued so you would have ended in the same situation with one for £118.

I am not going to comment on the outcome of your appeal. All I can say is count yourself lucky if the appeal is upheld, as the outcome could have been much worse.

 

[MikeWh]

https://twitter.com/greateranglia/status/410803278247899136

If a passenger holding an Advance ticket London Terminals - Diss booked 1330, takes 1300, what fare could they be charged?

hi, yes. It would be the appropriate fare with discounts where applicable. KM

An observation could be made that Greater Anglia seem to be having some difficulties ensuring all staff are familiar with the new rules (it took some prompting for the Twitter team to be aware).

Another forum member had the same problem on GA several months ago, and were successful in obtaining a refund of the difference between the fare they were asked to pay and the appropriate, discounted fare.