Unfair unpaid fare??

[Nowayjose]

On the 8th November my wife and I took the 14:17 Greater Anglia service from Diss to Liverpool Street, this train was cancelled, and we had to take the 14:47 instead. The following day our return ticket was booked for 13:30, and we instead took the 13:00 train from Liverpool street to Diss. I should point out that I had not even realised there was a fixed time on our return journey, as the first capital connect train we normally use is an open return for just 50p more.

About 20 minutes into the journey, the conductor checked our tickets, and pointed out that we were on the wrong train. He gave us the choice to either get off at Colchester, or pay for 2 new tickets for the 13:00 train at a total cost of £118.40. We agreed to get off the train at Colchester, but after making several calls to try and rearrange our lift at diss station, I decided to phone GA customer services.

I explained the situation, and the service agent explained that as our train had been delayed the day before, the conductor could at his discretion waive the additional fare, and allow us to stay on the train. I asked the customer service agent if he could speak to the conductor, and he said he would be more than happy to do so. I walked down the train and found the conductor, who flatly refused to speak to his colleague, as he said he had already made up his mind. He said he knew he could waive our fare, but he was not going to. I asked if there was any reason for this, and he said no, that is just what I have decided.

At this point, I said that I was really not happy about leaving the train, it was empty, and the price we paid for our ticket was exactly the same for the advanced ticket on the 13:00 train. The conductor then issued me with an unpaid fare notice for the £118.40', as I refused to get off the train.

I appealed my unpaid fare notice to the IAS on the 11th November, and got a letter back on the 25th to say my appeal had been accepted. On the 3rd December, they wrote to me again to say the letter dated the 25th November was sent in error, and my appeal had in fact been rejected. I have written to GA to complain, as I had no intention of dodging a fare, and in fact had paid the full fare price, but for the later train, should I dig my heels in, or pay the £118.40?

Thanks

 

[Chew Chew]

So you travelled on a train that your ticket was not valid for and when given the option of leaving the train or staying on the train you decided to stay on the train but you also decided not to pay the fare?

 

[Nowayjose]

So you travelled on a train that your ticket was not valid for and when given the option of leaving the train or staying on the train you decided to stay on the train but you also decided not to pay the fare?

I had paid a fare, £66.00. This was the same price for both trains.

 

[causton]

Unfortunately 'discretion' is just that! I would personally pay it. If you read the many threads on this forum about people going through court proceedings for very similar things, you will see why I am saying this. Let it be a lesson learned to always check your ticket for any mandatory reservations!

 

[Anvil1984]

Sorry but I don't see a valid reason to have allowed you to travel and feel the conductor / revenue staff were kind to offer the option to get off at Colchester and take your booked service.

The train before being early the day earlier has no impact on your ticket for the day of travel. Customer services were wrong to attempt to undermine the conductor. The rules are quite clear on Advance tickets and you would have clicked to agree to them when you purchased the ticket. They are only valid on the train you book. Again the fact there were advance tickets / seats available on both trains aren't in the terms you agreed to. You agreed to take the 1330 for the price you paid

 

[Nowayjose]

The really disappointing thing for me, is that I did not intentionally dodge a fare, in fact I paid the same price for the train I should have been on as the train I was on. The train I was on was almost empty, and greater anglia have not lost out financially by me getting on a different train. I made a mistake because I did not check a ticket, the IAS made a mistake in sending out a wrong letter it can happen to anyone!

 

[island]

The UPFN should have been for £84 as the OP was travelling on a wrong train at a time the off-peak single £42 was valid.

 

[Chew Chew]

I had paid a fare, £66.00. This was the same price for both trains.

It doesn't matter that the fare was the same, the ticket you were carrying was only valid for a specific train and you weren't on that train.

 

[Nowayjose]

The fact that customer services were 'wrong' is not my fault, if GA staff are contradicting each other, that is their issue not mine. If GA choose to throw paying customers off an empty train, I will revert back to my usual first capital connect service that operates an open return ticket for £33.50 return
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No, I made a mistake. I deserve to be punished!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So you travelled on a train that your ticket was not valid for and when given the option of leaving the train or staying on the train you decided to stay on the train but you also decided not to pay the fare?

It doesn't matter that the fare was the same, the ticket you were carrying was only valid for a specific train and you weren't on that train.

You're right, I made a genuine mistake, and Greater Anglia are right to punish me for it

 

[sheff1]

You were advised that, if you got off at Colchester and waited half an hour, you would not need to pay 'again'. You chose to ignore that advice so, unsurprisingly, you were than asked to pay more as the conductor had explained in advance.

 

[Nowayjose]

You were advised that, if you got off and Colchester and waited half an hour, you would not need to pay 'again'. You chose to ignore that advice so, unsurprisingly, you then became liable to pay more.

Yes, you are right, it is excellent customer service to throw a paying customer off an empty train. Especially when your nearest competitor offers an open return for just 50p more I'll pay my punishment

 

[MikeWh]

I appealed my unpaid fare notice to the IAS on the 11th November, and got a letter back on the 25th to say my appeal had been accepted. On the 3rd December, they wrote to me again to say the letter dated the 25th November was sent in error, and my appeal had in fact been rejected. I have written to GA to complain, as I had no intention of dodging a fare, and in fact had paid the full fare price, but for the later train, should I dig my heels in, or pay the £118.40?

Thanks

If you have a letter saying that your appeal has been accepted then I would not pay a penny. IANAL, but I can't seriously see a court upholding a claim from GA in those circumstances.

 

[Nowayjose]

I still have both letters, just goes to show even train companies can make mistakes!

 

[VauxhallandI]

If you have a letter saying that your appeal has been accepted then I would not pay a penny. IANAL, but I can't seriously see a court upholding a claim from GA in those circumstances.

Although not particularly deserving in this case these^^^^were my thoughts too

 

[Nowayjose]

If you have a letter saying that your appeal has been accepted then I would not pay a penny. IANAL, but I can't seriously see a court upholding a claim from GA in those circumstances.

It doesn't matter that the fare was the same, the ticket you were carrying was only valid for a specific train and you weren't on that train.

What difference does it make to GA that I took the earlier train? If the train was full, and I was causing an obstruction I would have gladly got off. But it was empty!? Please explain, especially as other providers offer open returns for almost exactly the same price?

 

[Eagle]

You're right, I made a genuine mistake, and Greater Anglia are right to punish me for it

Strictly speaking, an UPFN isn't a punishment, it's a bill (for the service the train company provided to you, which you had not paid for).

 

[bb21]

Can you explain why you, if knowing you had paid for a ticket that has no flexibility, expect that you should be dealt with differently to how any other passenger would be treated onboard a service without a valid ticket? Having your cake and eating it comes to mind. You were given the chance to redeem your error at Colchester, but you decided that you would push it.

And no, the fact that the other train has Advance tickets on sale for the same price does not matter. You paid a reduced fare in exchange for losing your flexibility. You can't have it both ways.

 

[yorkie]

The fact that customer services were 'wrong' is not my fault...

They were right. The Train Manager does have the ability to show discretion. The Train Manager did exercise discretion by offering you a reasonable choice.

No, I made a mistake. I deserve to be punished!

You don't deserve to be punished, but being given the opportunity to board the correct train, or pay for a new ticket isn't a punishment.

You're right, I made a genuine mistake, and Greater Anglia are right to punish me for it :grin:

There is no accusation that you have intentionally avoided a fare, and therefore no attempt at punishment.

The really disappointing thing for me, is that I did not intentionally dodge a fare....

I agree, and so do Greater Anglia, who gave you the choice of paying for a new valid ticket or alternatively alighting from the train to catch the correct train at no charge.

You made your choice to incur costs of two additional tickets, and therefore Greater Anglia are perusing payment of those tickets.

should I dig my heels in, or pay the £118.40?

If you wish to refuse payment of this fare, you will need to seek urgent legal advice, as if you refuse to pay the fare, Greater Anglia could prosecute you under Railway Byelaws. See what your solicitor thinks about the contradicting letters, as I do not know if that would help your cause, but it's worth asking the question. But whether it is worth defending a prosecution, I am not so sure, as if you were to lose a case, it could potentially cost you a four-figure sum.

 

[island]

What difference does it make to GA that I took the earlier train? If the train was full, and I was causing an obstruction I would have gladly got off. But it was empty!? Please explain, especially as other providers offer open returns for almost exactly the same price?

When you purchased your ticket, you had several options, including to travel on FCC, to buy an off-peak return on AGA, or, as you did, to take the cheapest option of Advance tickets. I fail to understand how, having chosen one option, you feel you should be provided with the additional choice reserved for those who have paid for it.

The alleged justification of your action by the fact that some other train was late doesn't really stand up, as you could potentially claim Delay-Repay for the late train.

There are two potential lines of defence here for you, one being that you were charged the wrong amount (as mentioned above), and the other being that having accepted your appeal, AGA's agents don't have the right to change their minds. I offer no opinion on the likelihood of success of either, but would urge you not to stick your head in the sand as after 10 days the UPFN may start attracting late payment fees.

 

[cuccir]

Although I can see why Nowayjose's attitude has resulted in a negative response, it should be pointed out that:

1. As island mentioned, the UPFN is for the incorrect amount. It should be for £84, or two off-peak singles.
2. GA and IAS have hardly covered themselves in glory with staff contradicting each other and sending out incorrect letters.

Do understand that you have potentially committed an offence by not holding a valid ticket which could result in a successful prosecution, even if all staff involved (except, perhaps, the guard!) have acted incompetently.

I don't think that any of the three parties comes out of this in the right!

 

[MichaelAMW]

I think the OP raises an interesting general question, that of where you stand if you have a return journey that comprises two Advance singles and you are badly delayed on your outward leg. This might be particularly pertinent on a day like this when the weather is causing cancellations in some parts. E.g., hypothetically, I have booked to travel from here, windy Beeston, to London today and plan to return Saturday, but it's all cancelled and I'm told I may travel tomorrow with today's ticket. If I have two days' worth of stuff to do in London, is it reasonable for me to expect to be able to return on Sunday, even though that's three days after the bad weather. I would say it should be, since the amount of time away has been halved otherwise. Is there any official line on this?

Anyway, back to the OP: I think he could perfectly reasonably have used such an argument and I suspect the customer services bod was thinking along the same line. However, he was travelling *earlier* than his booked time and so was clearly not affected by his delay the previous day. As others have said, the conductor *did* use his discretion, both by not charging an extra amount and by, in effect, authorising him nonetheless to break the conditions of the ticket by joining his booked train at the wrong station.

To the OP: you are probably right, at some pragmatic level, that it doesn't really matter which of those two trains you catch. However, where do you draw the line? You might decide that you don't fancy the 13.30 but prefer the 17.30, which is far from an empty train and so the extra passsengers on there would make a difference, even ignoring the fact that the availability of Advance tickets for that train would be lower in the first place. To avoid chaos, therefore, the decision is that the line is drawn at the point that means you have to get your booked train.

 

[34D]

What difference does it make to GA that I took the earlier train? If the train was full, and I was causing an obstruction I would have gladly got off. But it was empty!? Please explain, especially as other providers offer open returns for almost exactly the same price?

That's not the point. If you had theatre tickets for Thursday night, would it be okay to go Weds instead?

You've agreed to some very narrow conditions here

 

[LexyBoy]

Greater Angular do offer a flexible month return for Diss-London, at £43 (Off Peak Return). I would consider this before using FCC, who have an even worse reputation for ticketing irregularities as a brief flick through this forum will show (for example threatening prosecution for using a route shown in their own journey planner, or for using the wrong kind of pen to mark a date on carnet tickets).

Online sales defaults to the cheapest tickets, even if this is only a little cheaper than the flexible walk-up tickets, and (IMO) it's not clear enough that these tickets are non-flexible.

In your situation, I agree with others that leaving at Colchester would have been reasonable - it was only half an hour, and you were effectively being let off as you hadn't understood the restrictions on your ticket.

You could argue that the UPFN should only be for £84 as island says. This is due to a fairly recent change in procedure which states that passengers travelling at the wrong time, but right date and route, on Advance tickets, should be charged the cheapest walk-on fare, whereas you have been charged the full Anytime fare as per the previous rules. This is likely to be a difficult route to go down though as AFAIK there's no public documentation stating the rules, so GA could just say that their procedure is to charge the Anytime fare and then you're stuck.

 

[island]

Yes, you are right, it is excellent customer service to throw a paying customer off an empty train. Especially when your nearest competitor offers an open return for just 50p more I'll pay my punishment

FCC does not serve Diss, though?

 

[jon0844]

I'll pay my punishment

So that's sorted then!

 

[LexyBoy]

FCC does not serve Diss, though?

I was assuming OP had a choice of driving to Diss or an FCC station on the Kings Lynn line - looking at a map though they are further apart than I thought and there would be closer stations than either (although with relatively infrequent services).

 

[fowler9]

To be honest in your defence I think the ticketing system is a bit wild but given the chance of a get out of jail free card like you were I would have just got off at Colchester and got on the right train.

 

[Chapeltom]

I don't think there is anything more than can be said until the OP returns, that is if they do actually return.

Whilst GA suffer no financial loss as a result of the OP choosing to travel on a ticket earlier than the one they were booked on, the fact is the OP bought a ticket at a cheaper price (being an inflexible ticket) and they chose to break the condition of the ticket: that they must travel on the booked train. Unfortunately the OP dug a hole for themselves when they chose NOT to take the opportunity to travel on the booked train when given a chance to by the guard/revenue staff. I'd suggest if the unpaid fares notice is not paid that GA may escalate the matter into a prosecution.

 

[Nowayjose]

Thank you all for your advice it has been most helpful. I have challenged the value of my unpaid fare notice, and will pay whatever fee GA come back with. I will however be using my Mercedes for any future trips

 

[fowler9]

Thank you all for your advice it has been most helpful. I have challenged the value of my unpaid fare notice, and will pay whatever fee GA come back with. I will however be using my Mercedes for any future trips

Mercedes! Cheap rubbish. Get yourself an Audi! Ha ha.