Todmorden - Yorkshire or Lancashire

[anti-pacer]

Now I know the history of Todmorden and how the border between "us" (Yorkshire) and "them" (Lancashire) used to cut through the middle of the town hall.

I also know that Todmorden is in the ceremonial county of West Yorkshire, but with the town having an 'OL' postcode, the word Lancashire in their addresses, and the 01706 telephone code, as well as accents that resemble more Lancashire than Yorkshire, do you class Todmorden as part of Yorkshire or Lancashire?

I have also just watched "Homes Under The Hammer" (I'm off today ) and there was a house in "Todmorden, Lancashire" on.

 

[northwichcat]

Todmorden is West Yorkshire but some people whose families have lived there for a number of years refer to it being Lancashire. Former weatherman John Kettley who grew up there and whose parents are from Todmorden used to say he was from Lancashire rather than Yorkshire.

The TV usually goes along with what the people they are featuring say. A mill in Hyde that featured on the local news not that long ago was referred to as a Cheshire mill by both BBC and ITV, yet when talking about Ricky Hatton from Hyde it's always Greater Manchester.

 

[telstarbox]

Postcodes have nothing to do with counties - for example the TN postcode (Tonbridge in Kent) covers a large amount of East Sussex.

 

[deltic1989]

Postcodes have nothing to do with counties - for example the TN postcode (Tonbridge in Kent) covers a large amount of East Sussex.

PE (Peterbro') and DN (Doncaster) also cover large parts of Lincolshire.
I asked my parents this question and got different answers . Just to point out my Mother is a Yorkie and my Father a Lancastrian. So it would appear to be disputed territory.

 

[anti-pacer]

Postcodes have nothing to do with counties - for example the TN postcode (Tonbridge in Kent) covers a large amount of East Sussex.

I know, but they often cloud perhaps judgement of where they live.

I once worked in the operations centre of a German-owned courier company based at East Midlands Airport, and someone I worked with (from Nottingham) once joked about "crossing the evil divide into Derbyshire" every day for work. There was genuine shock, doubt, and disbelief when I told him (and others) that we actually worked in Leicestershire.

All because of a Derby address/postcode, and dialling code area.

How many people in "Outer London" still think they live in Essex, Herts, Kent, Surrey.... and best of all Middlesex because of their postal address?! Quite a lot!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Postcodes have nothing to do with counties - for example the TN postcode (Tonbridge in Kent) covers a large amount of East Sussex.

In fact, postcodes don't even have anything to do with countries: Aberystwyth has Shrewsbury (SY) postcodes!

 

[telstarbox]

Not to mention the "Stockport, Cheshire" w!nkers.

 

[anti-pacer]

Not to mention the "Stockport, Cheshire" w!nkers.

My aunty lives in Ilford, East London, and swears blind she lives in Essex.

This is despite living in the "LONDON BOROUGH of Redbridge", paying part of her council tax towards the services of the Metropolitan Police and London Fire Service. If, god forbid, she needed an ambulance locally, it would be London Ambulance Service in attendance.

Further to this, she has TfL bus stops at either end of her road, where she can use her Freedom Pass to get about.

Whenever I visit and we go to a couple of pubs in Epping Forest, at Grange Hill (Chigwell), we pass a sign that says "Essex", suggesting that anywhere before that sign isn't part of Essex.

Still won't have it though! :roll:

 

[Buttsy]

Henley-on-Thames has a Reading postcode and Faringdon a Swindon one, but both are in Oxfordshire, though Faringdon was possibly in Berkshire until 1974...

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Back to the discussion about Todmorden......when I lived there for four years in the late 1970's and worked in the NHS it was administratively governed through the Calderdale Council based in Halifax (as was the then Area Health Authority), but many people I knew would shop in Burnley (Lancs), closer and a quicker bus ride and for city shopping 'twas Manchester rather than Leeds. However If my memory serves me correctly local people would claim allegiance to Yorkshire rather than Lancashire.

 

[maniacmartin]

How many people in "Outer London" still think they live in Essex, Herts, Kent, Surrey.... and best of all Middlesex because of their postal address?! Quite a lot!

Well if they use the postal address specified by Royal Mail, it'll probably be a postal town 'LONDON' (for N, E, SE, SW, W, NW-prefixed postcodes) with no county mentioned at all.

In Royal Mail's world, the first half of a postcode can only be associated with a single 'postal town'. If there is no town, Royal Mail have been known to invent fictitious ones named after boroughs etc. Check out 'HIGH PEAK' (SK22 and SK23, actually in Derbyshire despite being grouped under Stockport)

If this sort of thing interests you, there's some detailed pages on Wikipedia about postcodes as well as pages on ceremonial counties and other assorted mess made by the Local Government Act 1972. Frank's Compulsive Guide to Postal Addresses can be good too

 

[northwichcat]

Well if they use the postal address specified by Royal Mail, it'll probably be a postal town 'LONDON' (for N, E, SE, SW, W, NW-prefixed postcodes) with no county mentioned at all.

Postcodes came in a few years after the 1974 council changes. So people in the newly formed 'Greater Manchester' county had to continue to write Cheshire or Lancashire in most cases. A small selection of places had changes e.g. Atherton, Lancashire became Atherton, Manchester and Sale, Cheshire became Sale, Manchester but nowhere had Greater Manchester as part of the address so for the purposes of post 'Greater Manchester' has never existed.

In Royal Mail's world, the first half of a postcode can only be associated with a single 'postal town'. If there is no town, Royal Mail have been known to invent fictitious ones named after boroughs etc. Check out 'HIGH PEAK' (SK22 and SK23, actually in Derbyshire despite being groups under Stockport)

Wirral also appears in postal addresses.

 

[anti-pacer]

Well if they use the postal address specified by Royal Mail, it'll probably be a postal town 'LONDON' (for N, E, SE, SW, W, NW-prefixed postcodes) with no county mentioned at all.

In Royal Mail's world, the first half of a postcode can only be associated with a single 'postal town'. If there is no town, Royal Mail have been known to invent fictitious ones named after boroughs etc. Check out 'HIGH PEAK' (SK22 and SK23, actually in Derbyshire despite being grouped under Stockport)

If this sort of thing interests you, there's some detailed pages on Wikipedia about postcodes as well as pages on ceremonial counties and other assorted mess made by the Local Government Act 1974. Frank's Compulsive Guide to Postal Addresses can be good too

But the correct Royal Mail address for say Barking, is "Barking, Essex".

 

[maniacmartin]

As for Todmorden, I've never been there but did visit Colne recently which is near the border. It felt very Lancastrian to me

 

[anti-pacer]

As for Todmorden, I've never been there but did visit Colne recently which is near the border. It felt very Lancastrian to me

I grew up in Colne and it certainly is very different to Yorkshire.

 

[maniacmartin]

But the correct Royal Mail address for say Barking, is "Barking, Essex".

Royal Mail addresses never include counties. You can look them up using http://postcode.royalmail.com. As for Barking, it doesn't have London postcodes as it has IG (Ilford) prefixes.

This is of course totally unrelated to its pre-1974 ceremonial county. Since the advent of Greater London, I'm not even sure if it's in a 'county' at all. Similarly for addresses unitary authorities like North East Lincolnshire or Bath & North East Somerset* - does the concept of counties still hold nowadays?

 

[anti-pacer]

Royal Mail addresses never include counties. You can look them up using http://postcode.royalmail.com. As for Barking, it doesn't have London postcodes as it has IG (Ilford) prefixes.

This is of course totally unrelated to its pre-1974 ceremonial county. Since the advent of Greater London, I'm not even sure if it's in a 'county' at all. Similarly for addresses unitary authorities like North East Lincolnshire or Bath & North East Somerset* - does the concept of counties still hold nowadays?

I believe at one time Royal Mail did include the county names, but this has since been scrapped. A postal town, along with postcode is sufficient.

Counties do still exist with many having county councils. Some however have taken the UA route. Berkshire and Cheshire have, and some other counties have introduced UA's for parts of the ceremonial counties.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Both Todmorden and Walsden were part of the medieval Hundred of Salford.

Todmorden is part of the R.C. diocese of Salford

Peter Lever, the former fast bowler who played for Lancashire and England, was born in Todmorden.

 

[anti-pacer]

Both Todmorden and Walsden were part of the medieval Hundred of Salford.

Todmorden is part of the R.C. diocese of Salford

Peter Lever, the former fast bowler who played for Lancashire and England, was born in Todmorden.

It's also part of the (Anglican) Diocese of Wakefield!

It's one of these places like Buxton. They're not sure what they are - East Midlands or North West.

 

[TUC]

Particularly bizarrely, the BT postcode does not simply cover Belfast but actually covers the whole of Northern Ireland, including areas over 80 miles away.

Equally frustrating is that Belfast addresses are given as County Antrim, even though part of the city is in County Down. This isn't the product of local government reorganisation-NI's countries don't exist as organisations. Apparently this was because the post office considered that it would be too confusing to have addresses for the same city with different county addresses-although one would have thought that it saying Belfast on the letter would be clear enough For them to not be confused!

 

[northwichcat]

Todmorden is part of the R.C. diocese of Salford

And guess which dioceses Birkenhead is in - noting that you can see both Liverpool cathedrals (Catholic and Anglican) from places in Birkenhead.

Answer:
Anglican - Chester
Catholic - Shrewsbury
Due to Birkenhead being in Cheshire at the time the dioceses were drawn up.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is Todmorden so lacking in areas of interest that forum members on this thread are having to resort to discuss the relative postcodes of areas far removed from the area of Todmorden....hock:

 

[chorleyjeff]

As for Todmorden, I've never been there but did visit Colne recently which is near the border. It felt very Lancastrian to me

Todmorden is clearly part of Calderdale with the Calder Valley pretty much built up to Halifax but withopen country betweeen it and Burnley.
HOWEVER The current administrative counties should not be mistaken for the actual pre 1974 counties that were, in fact, never abolished. The cricket authorities seem to have it right so that Lancashire play in Salford and Liverpool, and Essex play in Ilford and Middlesex still exists in their mind. Does the Lord Lieutenant of Lancashire still attend the Queen when she visits her County Palatine?
And to the people of central and West and North Lancashire the valleys of East Lancashire seem alien even though part of our county.

 

[anti-pacer]

Todmorden is clearly part of Calderdale with the Calder Valley pretty much built up to Halifax but withopen country betweeen it and Burnley.
HOWEVER The current administrative counties should not be mistaken for the actual pre 1974 counties that were, in fact, never abolished. The cricket authorities seem to have it right so that Lancashire play in Salford and Liverpool, and Essex play in Ilford and Middlesex still exists in their mind. Does the Lord Lieutenant of Lancashire still attend the Queen when she visits her County Palatine?
And to the people of central and West and North Lancashire the valleys of East Lancashire seem alien even though part of our county.

Sorry to be picky, but Lancashire play in Trafford.

The rest of your points are agreeable though.

 

[46223]

Todmorden is in West Yorkshire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todmorden

 

[edwin_m]

Todmorden is clearly part of Calderdale with the Calder Valley pretty much built up to Halifax but withopen country betweeen it and Burnley.

And just to confuse matters there is another Calder near Burnley. That one runs generally westwards and empties into the Ribble.

I imagine postcodes reflected the Royal Mail's distribution network at the time they were introduced in the 70s, although Wikipedia is silent on this. However it seems sensible that in the days before computers the first part of the postcode would allow a sorter to identify the main sorting office a long-distance item needed to be directed to. This would also explain why they took no account of administrative boundaries even when first introduced.

Having grown up in Saddleworth, west of the Pennine watershed but part of the West Riding of Yorkshire until 1974, the confused of or by Todmorden have my sympathy.

 

[anti-pacer]

Todmorden is in West Yorkshire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todmorden

We know that, however a quick read of my initial post indicates that this thread is about perception and not administrative fact.

 

[maniacmartin]

Spare a thought for us who were born in Humberside, a county that survived only 22 years.

 

[anti-pacer]

Spare a thought for us who were born in Humberside, a county that survived only 22 years.

Now a mix of the East Riding of Yorkshire, North Lincolnshire, and North East Lincolnshire.

Gives you a headache doesn't it?! :roll:

 

[Oswyntail]

Not to mention the "Stockport, Cheshire" w!nkers.

Writing as one who comes from "Stockport, Cheshire" I ask you to clarify that remark

Todmorden is in West Yorkshire.
...

So am I - but that doesn't make me a Yorkshireman.