Class 185 future

[Philip]

So next week will see the start of the 185s gradually having their duties reduced on TPE routes. In the short term they'll still be on Blackpool, South TPE and with more being used on North TPE routes to be going on with but eventually Blackpool and North TPE will be wired so here lies the question. Where would be a good place for them to go to and realistically where do people see them going?

Pretty sure they'll be a thing of the past on Blackpool and North TPE; Middlesbrough service will terminate at York if need be, same goes for the Scarborough service (and this will surely be routed via Chat Moss alongside the Newcastle service), to allow electric trains on all Liverpool and Manchester to York routes. The Hull line will probably be wired but in the meantime 170s will continue to run this service.

This then leads on to South TPE, whichever franchise this ends up in and whether or not they alter the route I can see 158s becoming the sole unit for Manchester to Sheffield fasts; they can make use of the sprinter speeds unlike 185s and can double up with a corridor connection, giving greater flexibility in doubling up some current single unit services. The 2 170 diagrams currently running on this route could then be used to fill in for the odd remaining 185 Hull working.

That's my take on what will happen, if 158s do take over South TPE duties then it leaves a potential new home for at least some of the 185, whereever that is.. To add, taking the York service off the Warrington Central line could free up another path at least as far as Piccadilly; potential for a new hourly Liverpool-Man Airport service via Warrington, to be run using 185s? (assuming the CLC route isn't electrified!)

 

[Manchester77]

Buxton line and Scottish highland routes spring to mind

 

[swt_passenger]

Next week will not see the start of a gradual reduction in duties. All the 185s will stay with TPE until electrification of TPE North is completed, and until then they are all going to be in use for strengthening existing services.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Hull is almost certainly to be wired. Middlesbrough is very very likely in CP6.

Current routes served which will remain not electrified Medium Term:

Scarborough, South TPE, Barrow.

Scarborough has an easy solution as regularly discussed on here. Extend Blackpool North - York service with it becoming Semi Fast Leeds-York.

South TPE, well it will need some big platform extensions to take 6 cars. Although if you run it so that it is only 6 car to Doncaster you would only have to extend Meadowhall which is likely to be done alongside HS2 anyway. That will absorb some, plus also the introduction of a third Manc-Sheffield fast service.

Barrow is likely to become a Northern Shuttle with occasional through services.

Where will they go? I am not sure i cannot think of many routes where they need 3 or 6 cars. I think Scotland looks increasingly popular for me with 156's and 158's heading South. I am throwing this out there but Norwich Liverpool. 6 car to Peteborough 3 car to Norwich.

 

[Philip]

Next week will not see the start of a gradual reduction in duties. All the 185s will stay with TPE until electrification of TPE North is completed, and until then they are all going to be in use for strengthening existing services.

I've explained all that lol, and if you include routes covered in duties then there is a reduction - 185s are being taken off one route to make up a higher service frequency on an already existing route they cover.

 

[swt_passenger]

If the unit is still in use on a day to day basis it isn't a 'reduction in duties'. The individual units will still be diagrammed daily somewhere. Your original statement remains incorrect...

 

[387star]

could they turn them into electric trains?

Never been on one

SWT 450/444 units are absolutely superb and I'm sure these are too

 

[fowler9]

Hull is almost certainly to be wired. Middlesbrough is very very likely in CP6.

Current routes served which will remain not electrified Medium Term:

Scarborough, South TPE, Barrow.

Scarborough has an easy solution as regularly discussed on here. Extend Blackpool North - York service with it becoming Semi Fast Leeds-York.

South TPE, well it will need some big platform extensions to take 6 cars. Although if you run it so that it is only 6 car to Doncaster you would only have to extend Meadowhall which is likely to be done alongside HS2 anyway. That will absorb some, plus also the introduction of a third Manc-Sheffield fast service.

Barrow is likely to become a Northern Shuttle with occasional through services.

Where will they go? I am not sure i cannot think of many routes where they need 3 or 6 cars. I think Scotland looks increasingly popular for me with 156's and 158's heading South. I am throwing this out there but Norwich Liverpool. 6 car to Peteborough 3 car to Norwich.

Not sure if I am correct in saying this but aren't 3 car 185's too short and 6 car 185's too long for many Liverpool to Norwich services. A 6 car certainly doesn't fit in South Parkway and a 3 car isn't long enough for the crowds. There are ways around this I imagine.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Not sure if I am correct in saying this but aren't 3 car 185's too short and 6 car 185's too long for many Liverpool to Norwich services. A 6 car certainly doesn't fit in South Parkway and a 3 car isn't long enough for the crowds. There are ways around this I imagine.

Didn't know parkway was limited. That would stop my plan. I was just throwing something out that hasn't been mentioned for ages!

 

[Philip]

If the unit is still in use on a day to day basis it isn't a 'reduction in duties'. The individual units will still be diagrammed daily somewhere. Your original statement remains incorrect...

Don't be pedantic..

The idea about turning them into EMUs would solve pretty much everything! It makes sense if it's possible as the engines use so much fuel.

 

[wilsontown]

could they turn them into electric trains?

Not easily, I wouldn't have thought. They have hydraulic transmissions (unlike the diesel electric 22x units, for which conversion to electrics/bi-modes would make more sense). Probably cheaper to build new electric units.

They are decent units to travel in, but can be noisy and vibrate because of the underfloor engines. They're also not the most fuel efficient.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Don't be pedantic..

The idea about turning them into EMUs would solve pretty much everything! It makes sense if it's possible as the engines use so much fuel.

I doubt it is possible within a reasonable budget.

I believe they are not diesel electrics like the voyagers.

 

[fowler9]

Didn't know parkway was limited. That would stop my plan. I was just throwing something out that hasn't been mentioned for ages!

It would be a really good idea but yes, a 6 car 185 doesn't fit in South Parkway. At least headig in to Liverpool the doors on the back car heading in to Liverpool are locked. The guard comes around and warns people, or at least should do. Never got a 6 car set out of Lime Street to South Parkway but it must be the same.

It is still a very good station though apart from having only 3 superloo's for all the people who pass through. If you live in the area it is an excellent transport hub for entering or leaving Liverpool city centre. Could do with a much bigger car park but there isn't anywhere to put it.

Just as an Edit I don't think a 6 car 185 fits in Warrington Central either. I think small extensions have been built in case emergency evacuation is needed. Both stations are hemmed in by bridges and junctions.

 

[TheWalrus]

I think TPE and Northern should merge and all the trains work as a common pool between both sets of routes.

 

[Leylandlad]

Buxton line and Scottish highland routes spring to mind

Assuming no RA issues, the Highland Main Line would be ideal for the 185's.

2x185's on the majority of services or if it's feasible merge some sets to make 4 car 185 for the quieter diagrams.

Their extra power on the gradients would be a big improvement on the 170's/158's Imagine the sound heading south from Inverness

Subject the paths through the single track sections, probably looking at 10-15 min saving for Glasgow/Edinburgh-Inverness. Maybe even 3 hrs for Glasgow-Inv?

 

[Aictos]

Next week will not see the start of a gradual reduction in duties. All the 185s will stay with TPE until electrification of TPE North is completed, and until then they are all going to be in use for strengthening existing services.

Indeed but SOOOOO many people here seem to forget that :roll:

 

[YorkshireBear]

Indeed but SOOOOO many people here seem to forget that :roll:

Transfer of duties is the real description.

Spare units from May transfer to 5th TPE service then the units from Blackpool and Windemere transfer for the 6th TPE service then TPE north electrification releases almost everything!

 

[Manchester77]

I think TPE and Northern should merge and all the trains work as a common pool between both sets of routes.

If you do that then there should definately be an express sub-brand which would include current TPE routes plus things like S&C line services and Liverpool - Blackpool etc.

Assuming no RA issues, the Highland Main Line would be ideal for the 185's.
2x185's on the majority of services or if it's feasible merge some sets to make 4 car 185 for the quieter diagrams.
Their extra power on the gradients would be a big improvement on the 170's/158's Imagine the sound heading south from Inverness
Subject the paths through the single track sections, probably looking at 10-15 min saving for Glasgow/Edinburgh-Inverness. Maybe even 3 hrs for Glasgow-Inv?

they're roughly the same reasons why the Buxton line should also get them since they'd still operate around their depot at Ardwick as well as cascade sprinter stock for use elsewhere, not many would be needed for an hourly Buxton service so I doubt there's much to stop say 10 operating with northern for buxton services + strengthening and then the remaining 41 going to ScotRail

 

[IanXC]

I think the best option is to keep them in the same area. Cascading to Scotland would leave the vestibule issue, and in any case I think the Scotish Government are likely to go for more Intercity stock such as the 222s.

As for where they should operate, Blackpool North-York-(Scarborough), Leeds-Sheffield-Nottingham and the Settle and Carlisle all seem suitable.

 

[DarloRich]

They wont be going anywhere - TPE need them to strengthen their existing services and run the non electrified sections of their route (Boro/Scarborough/Hull for now)

Double ups on the core section (York - Manchester) would be very useful

 

[ash39]

Don't be pedantic..

The idea about turning them into EMUs would solve pretty much everything! It makes sense if it's possible as the engines use so much fuel.

Wasn't pedantic, what you said was fundamentally incorrect!

Can't convert them easily to electric as they are a diesel unit rather than a diesel electric as someone mentioned above. A voyager vehicle has a diesel engine feeding traction motors which provide the drive. This could be relatively easily modified to have the traction motors powered by electricity. 185s and other dmu's are powered directly by the engines through a gearbox.

I can see them ending up in Scotland or some on the Liverpool-Norwich route.

 

[WatcherZero]

I personally thought they would end up in Scotland displacing Sprinters until the Scottish Government specified new stock would have to be tourist focused with large windows to view the passing scenery and catering/gift shops offering ' best of Scottish produce' aka tourist tat.

How about Cheshire and North Wales? I dont see a problem with them on South TPE either with gauging/platform investment. In the great scheme of things infrastructure adaptation is generally a relatively small cost.

Of course they would have to remain in the local area until theres a replacement for the 350's and they are no longer required to supplement the electrics capacity.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Calder Valley line would make a good recipient for some of the Class 185 fleet. Also how would they be on the Settle to Carlisle line ?

 

[Class83]

Replace the 1st class seating with standard class then use them on non-electrified northern routes would be one option. Otherwise send them to Scotrail to replace the 48 158s presuming that electrification would free up units equivalent to the 48 156s, so the NOE would get 96 single class 2 car DMUs to replace the 142s/143s, again with the 317s/319s to allow for demand growth. Could the 222s run south TPE when they're released from the MML?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Replace the 1st class seating with standard class then use them on non-electrified northern routes would be one option. Otherwise send them to Scotrail to replace the 48 158s presuming that electrification would free up units equivalent to the 48 156s, so the NOE would get 96 single class 2 car DMUs to replace the 142s/143s, again with the 317s/319s to allow for demand growth. Could the 222s run south TPE when they're released from the MML?

Why the need to replace the first class seating on the Class 185 ? There are some of us who see this as essential on some of the longer journeys. I really do become annoyed that the ATW Class 175 units from Wilmslow to the South Wales area have no first class accommodation.

The Class 185 units are something that have at least brought a modicum of modern high-powered rolling stock to the northern outreaches of England to help balance the view that we are all only deserving of the Pacer fleet, so the loss of these to other regions would be a disgrace. Keep them all in their existing region, I say. We still have enough hilly routes to benefit from these units such as the Calder Valley route, which electrification appears not to be a favoured option.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think TPE and Northern should merge and all the trains work as a common pool between both sets of routes.

So Pacer from Newcastle to Liverpool then?

 

[Philip]

Wasn't pedantic, what you said was fundamentally incorrect!

It was pedantic, whether or not what I was said was technically incorrect..

 

[YorkshireBear]

So Pacer from Newcastle to Liverpool then?

At least in 2019 it might be a 319 vice 387 rather than a 142 vice 185 :P

 

[Philip]

Of course they would have to remain in the local area until theres a replacement for the 350's and they are no longer required to supplement the electrics capacity.

Does this mean 185s will still be making the occasional trip to Scotland up to 2018, when different EMUs arrive for the wired North TPE?

 

[IanXC]

Does this mean 185s will still be making the occasional trip to Scotland up to 2018, when different EMUs arrive for the wired North TPE?

Indeed.

TPE have discussed how they can more closely match capacity to demand on the Scotland route, using 3, 4, 6 or 8 coach trains.