LM Crosscity Line Overshoot

[bb21]

I have run through the thread and cleared out some personal comments. There is a very good discussion about some technical issues in this thread so let's make sure that it is not spoilt.

 

[Domh245]

This is a bit O/T but is it possible for a CTBC to have a "hissy fit" in the sense of: Driver selects brake notch 1, no reaction. Driver selects notch 2, no reaction. Notch 3, no reaction. Driver selects Emergency and train begins to react. If this is possible, would this data be recorded on the OTDR, because this is the sort of thing that you would have difficulty seeing with In-Cab CCTV unless the resolution is high enough to pick out the needles of the Pressure Gauges.

 

[A-driver]

I have no particular gripe about drivers any more than any other group within the industry. I don't doubt the professionalism and integrity of drivers, tho some of them are, on here, somewhat robust in their responses to others not in the business.


Another thread made a reference to CCTV not being welcomed in the driving cab but this overshoot situation would almost certainly be able to be investigated more helpfully by viewing the actions of the driver on any CCTV image. My comments earlier were, intentionally, a little tongue-in-cheek and not meant to cause offence. If you have been offended, then you are much more sensitive little
lambs than I thought you were.

You are going to need to explain the reason for this as you have lost me to be honest.

Why on earth would CCTV be helpful here in any way whatsoever? The OTMR would provide far more info in an investigation. It would show exactly where the train was when the brake went in, when it started slipping and how the driver reacted to that. The CCTV wouldn't tell the investigator the trains location, speed, brake step used or any details of the slide itself. CCTV would be useless in this example and would offer absolutely no help whatsoever.

You don't appear to understand what the OTMR actually does or how incidents like this are investigated. If the DM can see on the download that the brake was applied in good time for the station, went into a slide and the driver took the appropriate action then there would be no suspicion that the driver was doing anything wrong at all-and why would there be? If the OTMR shows that the driver didn't apply the brake until far too late then investigations will show what happened without the need for CCTV, just as investigations up to now always have. If there is suspicion of mobile phone use then records will be looked at but we are actually treated like adults and trusted to drive thousands of people around at the speeds without ever single incident immediately being out down to "the driver must have been doing something stupid, we need to have the ability to spy on them as they can't be trusted".

You just come across as having some axe to grind with drivers and seem determined that CCTV is desperately needed when there is no case for it at all.

 

[martybabes]

You are going to need to explain the reason for this as you have lost me to be honest.

Why on earth would CCTV be helpful here in any way whatsoever? The OTMR would provide far more info in an investigation. It would show exactly where the train was when the brake went in, when it started slipping and how the driver reacted to that. The CCTV wouldn't tell the investigator the trains location, speed, brake step used or any details of the slide itself. CCTV would be useless in this example and would offer absolutely no help whatsoever.

You don't appear to understand what the OTMR actually does or how incidents like this are investigated. If the DM can see on the download that the brake was applied in good time for the station, went into a slide and the driver took the appropriate action then there would be no suspicion that the driver was doing anything wrong at all-and why would there be? If the OTMR shows that the driver didn't apply the brake until far too late then investigations will show what happened without the need for CCTV, just as investigations up to now always have. If there is suspicion of mobile phone use then records will be looked at but we are actually treated like adults and trusted to drive thousands of people around at the speeds without ever single incident immediately being out down to "the driver must have been doing something stupid, we need to have the ability to spy on them as they can't be trusted".

You just come across as having some axe to grind with drivers and seem determined that CCTV is desperately needed when there is no case for it at all.

Right, let me try again.

Firstly, let me not only iterate but reiterate that I have no axe to grind against drivers, train managers or anyone connected - or not connected - with the railway. I have in the past made some comments which have been critical of the industry where I have felt it legitimate to air my dissatisfaction with the service or the manner in which the service is delivered. This is a public forum designed to allow the free expression of views, favourable or otherwise, about the common thread that brings all of us here. Inevitably, there will be exchanges of views which people cannot agree with - healthy discussion cannot but benefit everyone's understanding with the different standpoints people have and maybe, just maybe, explain why they hold those opinions. Ignorance of a situation has never prevented the expression of a point of view in the past, and the introduction of social media helps to perpetuate that ability.

Now, to deal with more specific issues, and let's start with why CCTV would be helpful. In the collection of evidence to assist identifying the why, what, where, when and how of a situation, every useful and available source needs to be interrogated. This can be from in-house data-collection devices either contained in the cab, line-side, in a central signalling control or, in fact, anywhere. if this information can be added to by witness testimony, so much the better (as this gives first hand evidence of what the witness saw, heard, did etc) and if there is CCTV available it all goes into the pot of material available for the investigation.

Now then, let us rid ourselves once and for all of this frankly silly idea that CCTV is the "spy in the cab" and an invasion of privacy. Any CCTV images that are collected can be available for viewing as a management tool. Of course, that has to be the case, but let's face it, who on earth is going to have the time and patience to pour over hours and hours of uninteresting views taken from in the cab when there is no need. There has been no suggestion, from me certainly, that drivers are failing to be diligent about their duties and responsibilities. I am sure no drivers use their mobiles while on duty, or are engaging in any other practices which would cause concern. The fact that you are so defensive and aggressive about this is a little disturbing but that may be based on your own prejudices rather than any you think I have! The suspicions appear to be in your mind, not mine.

And with regard to aircraft flight data recorders, nobody gives a monkeys what they record during uneventful flights. It is only when something goes wrong that they can be of assistance in an investigation. For the railways, there is already complicated and expensive data-logging systems on board, so further, un-intrusive, surveillance shouldn't be an issue. Why, then, is there so much opposition to it? CCTV will only ever supplement an investigation when an investigation is needed.

And can we bin the idea of the privacy thing? You are operating in the public domain for the transport of fare-paying passengers. Your privacy is at home and at your PNBs. While you are engaged in the transport of people and are responsible for their comfort and safety, they have every right to expect that their needs are properly met, and if that means the staff fulfilling that obligation are properly managed and, where necessary for safety and efficiency, properly monitored, then so be it. After all, if there are 400 passengers on your train, you are being monitored by 400 people already!
There is no room in a modern society for old-fashioned, protectionist work policies, and a reluctance for a public service mass transportation system not to have CCTV where necessary simply cannot now be supported.

Finally, I have no axe to grind. If I see things differently to you, it is because we have different standpoints. I am more than happy for you to have a different opinion to me, and I am happy to argue my point, strongly if appropriate, but I do not wish to be rude or hostile. if I have been, or appear to have been, then I apologise for that, but I do not apologise for the expression of my views which I consider to be both valid and constructive.

 

[VP185]

Are we actually talking CCTV of the driver or are we getting confused with a forward facing camera?

CCTV focused on a driver is pointless. A forward facing camera, however, if it provides a high resolution image, could potentially show how contaminated the railhead was at the time the driver commenced braking. If there is the accusation that the driver braked too late a forward facing could potentially clear the driver should it be able to show a clear railhead. Normally though the OTMR download will provide all the information required. When I slid through a station the OTMR download showed as soon as the brake applied the wheels locked. Nothing I could have done to prevent it and as a result non further action was taken.

 

[Bald Rick]

And with regard to aircraft flight data recorders, nobody gives a monkeys what they record during uneventful flights. It is only when something goes wrong that they can be of assistance in an investigation.

On the contrary. Most airlines and air safety administrations are very interested in what is recorded on uneventful flights. Thence they can assess metrics that show the precursors to events when things do go wrong, and stop them in advance.

 

[JGR]

Are we actually talking CCTV of the driver or are we getting confused with a forward facing camera?

CCTV focused on a driver is pointless. A forward facing camera, however, if it provides a high resolution image, could potentially show how contaminated the railhead was at the time the driver commenced braking. If there is the accusation that the driver braked too late a forward facing could potentially clear the driver should it be able to show a clear railhead. Normally though the OTMR download will provide all the information required. When I slid through a station the OTMR download showed as soon as the brake applied the wheels locked. Nothing I could have done to prevent it and as a result non further action was taken.

I'm no expert on railhead contamination and adhesion, but I somehow doubt that a (not excessively unreasonably priced) camera mounted on the front of a train moving at speed would be able to record an image of sufficient resolution and frame-rate to really say anything useful about the railhead quality. I'm happy to be enlightened on that front though.

At any rate, trying to analyse video data for potential adhesion issues following the event of a slide seems a bit pointless when actual wheel-slip and brake application is easy to measure.

 

[A-driver]

I'm no expert on railhead contamination and adhesion, but I somehow doubt that a (not excessively unreasonably priced) camera mounted on the front of a train moving at speed would be able to record an image of sufficient resolution and frame-rate to really say anything useful about the railhead quality. I'm happy to be enlightened on that front though.

At any rate, trying to analyse video data for potential adhesion issues following the event of a slide seems a bit pointless when actual wheel-slip and brake application is easy to measure.

Very true. The rails don't always look contaminated either. I have slid on shiny silver rails before aswell as black ones. And if it's dark then it's useless anyway.

The OTMR provides all the info you could need for this kind if incident when used with the drivers report. A slide through in leaf fall season is unlikely to arouse any suspicion of driver error on its own.

 

[Bald Rick]

Rather than in cab CCTV, some sort of smell-o-meter would give a more accurate reflection of driver response when the wheels pick up resulting in a big station overshoot.

Although it mays get confused following the curry night.

 

[O L Leigh]

I would have thought that absorbent seat pads would suffice.

O L Leigh

 

[Crossover]

I have also been on a train experiencing some rather distinct issues on the Cross City a few weeks ago...pitch black so the only clue was the noises! The driver realised soon after leaving New St so approaches to station were taken slowly so we didn't overshoot anything AFAIK

 

[notadriver]

I wish there was a better indication of WSP activity during braking. Sometimes the speedo and / or brake cylinder gauge will behave erratically as an indicator but as I've learnt not always.

 

[VP185]

Very true. The rails don't always look contaminated either. I have slid on shiny silver rails before aswell as black ones. And if it's dark then it's useless anyway.

The OTMR provides all the info you could need for this kind if incident when used with the drivers report. A slide through in leaf fall season is unlikely to arouse any suspicion of driver error on its own.

Exactly. If I was accused of not braking early enough based on the conditions and if I felt strongly enough about it, I would ask them to review the forward facing camera in an attempt to prove that potentially the railhead didn't appear contaminated.

We've had a run of recent overshoots at one particular station and they have used the forward facing cameras to check the railhead condition because all the drivers involved have stated it looked fine, there was no WSP anywhere previously on the journey and when they've tested the railhead they got a reading between 10-15 microns which equates to light contamination. It was then thought the action if the wheelslide effectively cleaned the railhead so they've used the cameras to check. It's fair to say there baffled as to what's causing it

I wish there was a better indication of WSP activity during braking. Sometimes the speedo and / or brake cylinder gauge will behave erratically as an indicator but as I've learnt not always.

When I slid through a station the speedo read a constant 50mph throughout, didn't fluctuate at all. The OTMR download shows it went straight to 0mph. It was a relief to find that out. I knew the train was sliding at the time, I was just concerned that the download wouldn't show it!

 

[PauloDavesi]

Not trying to be controversial, but it is possible to integrate the data logging with input from cameras, which may be helpful in the investigation of some incidents, as well as been a useful tool in driver training, and vehicle development.

 

[notadriver]

Not trying to be controversial, but it is possible to integrate the data logging with input from cameras, which may be helpful in the investigation of some incidents, as well as been a useful tool in driver training, and vehicle development.

I've seen this sort of thing fitted to buses/coaches which is a forward facing camera with a time/speed read out with a split screen of an image pointed at the driver as shown in this clip :

http://youtu.be/TwSuWFF4VKU

 

[O L Leigh]

I wish there was a better indication of WSP activity during braking. Sometimes the speedo and / or brake cylinder gauge will behave erratically as an indicator but as I've learnt not always.

Well, Cl170s have a WSP light on the desk. However, that really is necessary because these units don't slide like the EMUs I've previously driven.

When you apply the brake and get into a slide you don't get any real indications at all as the speedo doesn't go crazy or shoot straight down to zero. Instead the indicated speed simply shows a gradual reduction just as you might expect under normal braking, but what it's showing is not a reduction in train speed but a reduction in wheel rotation speed. If it wasn't for the WSP light you might never know you were sliding.

The EMUs I drove before normally sent the speedo needle crazy but, as you say, it can't always be relied on. What I did discover was that you could usually feel the WSP working quite literally through the seat of your pants as the jolting between vehicles is quite distinctive. The other option is to open the window a bit and see if you can hear the WSP going "chuff chuff chuff".

O L Leigh

 

[VP185]

As I mentioned before, we have no indication of wheelslip/wheelslide on a Cl.180. If you have the heaters on it drowns out the noise of the engines or the sound of the WSP operating. If you open the window whilst braking all you can hear is the squealing brakes! The only guide you've got is the simply the fact the set isn't slowly down as you would normally expect.

Turbos & HST all have WSP lights on the desk. With a HST the WSP doesn't normally light up unless the wheelslide/wheelslip is severe and even then, you don't know which power car this relates to.
Ever since they re-engined them with MTUs they've really struggled to hold there feet even on a damp rail. It's almost as if it's delivering power in a way that the WSP system can not cope with. Some days you struggle to hit 75mph.