Future of the Moorgate Route

[anthony263]

Mind you - I personally think 313 "repatriation" from the coast and a thorough refurb of the existing fleet + some modest resignalling for now will do (there are 3 "home" signals missing in the tunnels which could , if replaced, bump the service headways up towards 18tph. Until ATO comes in eventually when the proper resignalling is done and the 313's shuffle of this mortal coil.

I think Souuthern transfering the class 313's to FCC once they get enough class 377/3's back from the London Metro routes has been suggested in fact on this forum a few months ago when we were talking about the new electrostars and where they would eventually end up

 

[jon0844]

Get the Southern trains. Make them all fixed 6 car formations. Open up the now middle cabs and guards area, add CIS and new seating - that will keep things going quite nicely until a new fleet of air conditioned trains you can easily walk through 378/S Stock style.

 

[Class377/5]

Get the Southern trains. Make them all fixed 6 car formations. Open up the now middle cabs and guards area, add CIS and new seating - that will keep things going quite nicely until a new fleet of air conditioned trains you can easily walk through 378/S Stock style.

Is it really worth it for what could be 3-5 years of use?

 

[jon0844]

Is it really worth it for what could be 3-5 years of use?

Surely they'd be expected (and able) to last longer than that?

Bear in mind, bidders for the franchise might suggest new rolling stock anyway - but doing so might make their bid less competitive.

 

[DXMachina]

They are now DC only. So add the cost of an AC refit.

 

[jon0844]

They are now DC only. So add the cost of an AC refit.

Ah yes, but I recall someone here saying the conversion back wouldn't be too expensive.

Are they 2+2 inside now? That might cause a problem with regards to providing nn seats, although I'd say that having some stock with 2+2 seating would actually help with getting more people on, albeit standing, which could be particularly useful in the heaviest part of the peak period - almost like queue buster trains.

 

[O L Leigh]

The awkward thing is the loading gauge on the Northern City Line. Don't think a 378 or a 455 would fit down that tunnel?

This is another perennial myth. Has anyone actually come up with anything to actually back this up?

Yes the Cl313 has a low roofline, in common with all the other PEP-derived EMUs, but that doesn't necessarily mean that this has anything to do with the clearances in the Moorgate "drain". However, the low roofline does not take into account the VCB and pan that sits on top of the roof in a very shallow pantograph well.

Just because nothing else has been down the "drain" it doesn't mean that nothing else will fit.

O L Leigh

 

[Class377/5]

Surely they'd be expected (and able) to last longer than that?

Bear in mind, bidders for the franchise might suggest new rolling stock anyway - but doing so might make their bid less competitive.

Well the Southern 313 are expected back for the Dec 2018 timetable change and the 313s are expected to be replaced in the early 2020s due to their age so its not about ability to last but simple they can't be expected to last much beyond their 50th birthdays.

 

[jon0844]

I don't know the physical condition of the trains, but could they not have life extension work like other stock?

 

[anthony263]

It will depend on many things. The class 313's are getting on a bit now and I wonder how the corrosion is on them as I know the class 315's suffer badly from this which is another reason why I pray that the Cardiff Valley Lines gets an alternative class 0f emu's such as the class 323's which can be used longer.

The class 313's operated by Southern have had their original seating taken out and new seating in a 2 + 2 layout added

 

[Class377/5]

I don't know the physical condition of the trains, but could they not have life extension work like other stock?

No stock has had work on it that late in its life. If you want the units to be having more than five years service after this refit your talking about stock running around 60 years after it was first introduced.

Don't think anyone thinks that's a good idea. There comes a time when stock is just too old to make it last another 10+ years. The 313s are a classic case of this.

 

[Aictos]

No stock has had work on it that late in its life. If you want the units to be having more than five years service after this refit your talking about stock running around 60 years after it was first introduced.

Don't think anyone thinks that's a good idea. There comes a time when stock is just too old to make it last another 10+ years. The 313s are a classic case of this.

I agree, what's the point in spending money extending the life of a EMU when it's pretty much reached the end of it's working life? It simply isn't economic to do so, far better to consider replacement stock which would suffice for another 50 or so years!

 

[HSTEd]

While there reliability figures still beat Pacers and Sprinters they can continue to serve outside the South East in my opinion.

Once they are the least reliable stock in use then we can consider replacement.

Remember A-stock served for 62 years prior to finally biting the dust, and was used far more intensively than the Class 313/5s are likely to be during their twilight years.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

While there reliability figures still beat Pacers and Sprinters they can continue to serve outside the South East in my opinion.

Once they are the least reliable stock in use then we can consider replacement.

Remember A-stock served for 62 years prior to finally biting the dust, and was used far more intensively than the Class 313/5s are likely to be during their twilight years.

A good number of the 313's work only in the Mon - Friday peak hours - and much reduced at weekends. Admittedly under TSGN there will be more work to do on the MG lines (later weekday running and weekend services) - but the two issues are really body corrosion and electrics. The 313's should be OK on both counts as a very through C6 in the past treated the latter - refurbishing was a recomended forward strategy in the recent ATOC national rolling strategy - so why build new , until really needed. !

 

[ungreat]

A 378 has visited Hornsey but no-one has ever shown any proof of one don the NCL and no-one internally knows it happened for sure bar the rumor.

Not sure how that would happen...none of us GN drivers sign 378s and I wouldnt have thought any Thameslink driver would sign the route to Moorgate.
Plus only Driver Managers are allowed to conduct.And I dont think ours on the GN would know 378s either.
Did hear the rumour though.

 

[A-driver]

Not sure how that would happen...none of us GN drivers sign 378s and I wouldnt have thought any Thameslink driver would sign the route to Moorgate.
Plus only Driver Managers are allowed to conduct.And I dont think ours on the GN would know 378s either.
Did hear the rumour though.

LO 172s regularly visit Hornsey for the wheel lathe and freight drivers work them in, same with freight drivers bringing 319s and 377s to and from Hornsey.

 

[prod_pep]

I don't see any reason why, without a further refurbishment, the 313s can't carry on for a good deal longer. They will require a few changes in order to last beyond 2019 (internal PIS being the most significant) but this can easily be done. Corrosion may be an issue but it can at least be worked on, as seen when Merseyrail's 507/8s visited Doncaster a few years ago for corrosion repair.

FCC's examples have comfortable seating and the ride quality is IMO fine for the services they operate.

To illustrate the point above, I believe only eight 313s are required to operate the Kings Cross - Hertford/Stevenage/Welwyn GC weekend service, sixteen on matchdays. Weekday off-peak times can't require too many more, perhaps around 13-14? This is much, much less intense service than the A-stock, so surely with some TLC it isn't impossible that the 313s could see close to 50 years of use?

 

[Class377/5]

Not sure how that would happen...none of us GN drivers sign 378s and I wouldnt have thought any Thameslink driver would sign the route to Moorgate.
Plus only Driver Managers are allowed to conduct.And I dont think ours on the GN would know 378s either.
Did hear the rumour though.

Its not a rumor. I've seen a picture awhile back.

DM are not required as freight drivers already bring in 319 and 377s on a daily basis. They are about to bring in a 378 as well just as A-driver stated.

To illustrate the point above, I believe only eight 313s are required to operate the Kings Cross - Hertford/Stevenage/Welwyn GC weekend service, sixteen on matchdays. Weekday off-peak times can't require too many more, perhaps around 13-14? This is much, much less intense service than the A-stock, so surely with some TLC it isn't impossible that the 313s could see close to 50 years of use?

They are already expected to see 50 years in service. In 2022 (when the TSGN franchise ends) the oldest 313 will be 46. What people are taking about is keeping the 313 going after the TSGN franchise which means any life extension work will need to see the units hit their mid 50's and last well into the 313's sixties.

 

[34D]

Don't forget the first bit of the 'drain' (from Drayton Park to Highbury platform 6) is dual voltage so is presumably a little higher.

Mark 1 coaches and class 73 (test train) have regularly been down there.

 

[tom1649]

Don't forget the first bit of the 'drain' (from Drayton Park to Highbury platform 6) is dual voltage so is presumably a little higher.

Mark 1 coaches and class 73 (test train) have regularly been down there.

The overhead line isn't actually live between Drayton Park and Highbury is it? I thought it was there just in case the driver forgot to put the pantograph down.

 

[Mojo]

I thought the Waterloo & City line was widely known as "the drain." Not heard it be used for this line but not really local.

 

[34D]

The overhead line isn't actually live between Drayton Park and Highbury is it? I thought it was there just in case the driver forgot to put the pantograph down.

I believe it is live, and is available for emergency use. I am happy to be corrected though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I thought the Waterloo & City line was widely known as "the drain." Not heard it be used for this line but not really local.

Indeed

 

[A-driver]

I believe it is live, and is available for emergency use. I am happy to be corrected though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Indeed

It's not live, it's just there incase there are problems dropping pans and gives a chance for them to fully drop if there are any problems.

I can't see why it would be there for emergency use? It only goes to the end if the platform at highbury so there would be no benefit in dual voltage as if the changeover dosnt work at Drayton park they won't let you go any further- all off and empty back to Hornsey. The trains have a fixed shoe so you take in DC power regardless of weather the pan is up or down as soon as you run into the up platform at Drayton park. That is how we know the pans have dropped-we get a dual voltage alarm when taking power if they are still up. You may be able to hear it go off if you sit behind the cab on a down train leaving Drayton park as trains run out of that station towards Finsbury park taking in both DC and AC power until the shoes run off the conductor rail.

The NCL is known as 'the hole', not heard it called 'the drain' before.

 

[jon0844]

Only the Waterloo and City line was/is called the drain isn't it?

 

[HowardGWR]

Only the Waterloo and City line was/is called the drain isn't it?

I read on LR in the articles on Bank that, strictly speaking, just the long passageway at Bank down to the trains was called the Drain originally.

 

[A-driver]

For anyone interested, I have just picked up my diagram for tomorrow and for the first time in a long time, trains will be running to Moorgate tomorrow ( Sunday ) with the exception if Drayton park and Essex road. This is due to the block at belle isle closing kings x.

 

[MK Tom]

Anyone know why the Moorgate line still thinks it's 1996 and Network South East operates everything?

 

[swt_passenger]

Anyone know why the Moorgate line still thinks it's 1996 and Network South East operates everything?

Isn't it mostly because the logo and colour scheme are built in to the tiling surfaces?

Southampton Central has another example of where NSE's colours are a fairly permanently part of the footbridge decoration, again it's mostly tiling.

 

[Harlesden]

According to my research the 313's were apparently specially designed for the Moorgate line and the 378's are actually 10 inches higher.

 

[O L Leigh]

According to my research the 313's were apparently specially designed for the Moorgate line and the 378's are actually 10 inches higher.

What research? I'd like a link to a website or credit to a publication, please.

The roofline might be 10 inches lower but the VCB does not sit flush with the roofline. This is the highest part of the train and also has to fit down the pipe.

O L Leigh