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20 Class 60s for sale

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yummy125

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From WNXX site:

Wabtec Tugs...
The twenty Class 60s offered for sale some weeks ago by DBS have been sold to Wabtec. The only thing that is certain at the moment is that they are being sold with re-use in mind. 'Social media' has erupted with a plethora of theories regarding what is to happen with these Class 60s.

At the moment the only 'theory' out there that holds any credence is that GBRf have an interest in ten of them.
 
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Monty

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From WNXX site:

Wabtec Tugs...
The twenty Class 60s offered for sale some weeks ago by DBS have been sold to Wabtec. The only thing that is certain at the moment is that they are being sold with re-use in mind. 'Social media' has erupted with a plethora of theories regarding what is to happen with these Class 60s.

At the moment the only 'theory' out there that holds any credence is that GBRf have an interest in ten of them.

GBRf purchasing any number of them would be plausible, they are the only major FOC (with DRS being a possible exception) who do not possess a loco of that power range as Freightliner and very possibly Colas have the class 70. But it begs the question do GBRf have any work that would be suitable for a 60?
 

YorkshireBear

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GBRf purchasing any number of them would be plausible, they are the only major FOC (with DRS being a possible exception) who do not possess a loco of that power range as Freightliner and very possibly Colas have the class 70. But it begs the question do GBRf have any work that would be suitable for a 60?

Dunno maybe biomass... Releasing 66s for other duties.
 

route:oxford

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A speculative move with a view to resell the locomotives on after refurbishment, or perhaps something a little more drastic like reengineering or rebuilding?

What would be the expected result of a re-engineer or rebuild?
 

cj_1985

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What would be the expected result of a re-engineer or rebuild?

Depends how far they would want to go with any such scheme...
But the theory AIUI with such schemes, would be to re-engineer or rebuild the locos with more modern equipment ie. A more powerful and economic engine, potentially AC Traction motors over the more normal DC, replacing older rarer parts with newer more modern and easily available items, as well as extending the operating life of the locos beyond the originally planned operating life.

Recent examples of such schemes would be the ongoing schemes by RVEL/NR and the separate BRUSH/GBRf projects to modernise class 73 locos with either a pair of 750hp Engines (RVEL) or a single 1500hp MTU lump meaning you should end up with locos that have more modern engines, a winder operational range, and still have the option of powering them using the 3rd rail.

Then you have the BRUSH/Eurotunnel scheme to modernise/rebuild original (or just older) Class 9 locos (not the shunted class if your confused) to the more recent and more powerful Class9/7 spec as class 9/8s

Another obvious well known example was the scheme to modernise/rebuild class 47s as class 57s with a more modern (than the Sulzer Power unit) and reliable GM/EMD 645 engine (albeit a refurbished engine, not a new one) as well and improve (to a point) the cab conditions ... mainly a repaint and stopping some draughts IIRC

And the well known to most enthusiasts, of the modernisation of HST power cars for use with NR, GC, EC, and FGW with new Engines, overhauled electrical equipment, new cab desks and gauges etc, new/replacement wiring etc to the point that they had (once again) a more modern, reliable and economic engine that was/is fit for use for something like another 15/20 years (at the time of rebuild/modernisation)...

You also have schemes where BR had looked at modernising some locos ie. With newer replacement engines... but these didn't really go ahead, other than small scale fitment of newer/different engines to a few class 37 for a proposed new type 3 loco.


For such a scheme with the class 60s you could potentially end up with (at the extreme of the scale) New more powerful, yet economical engine... AC Traction motors to increase haulage capacity... Improved cab conditions with New cab desk and dials, air conditioning, all safety equipment (ie AWS, TPWS, OTMR, and future proofed for ETCS) being fitted into the panels rather than "tacked on" as equipment is required to be fitted... new compliant light clusters... standardised Fuel tanks to provide the same fuel capacity on all the locos WABTEC leases or resells... depending on the potential operator and the engine fitted you could end up with the likes of the AAR multi system being fitted to allow use in multi with class 59, 66, 67, 70s etc

There is too much to realistically speculate on since you don't know if they will just be overhauled like the DB "Super 60" project and returned to traffic, or if they will be modernised/rebuilt to a WABTEC spec or if it would be to the potential operators desired spec, technical and physical limitations and budget, as well as what other hoops would have to be jumped through to satisfy the EU dictators
 
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455driver

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The engine in the 60s is quite fuel efficient anyway and if they were to fit 'new' engines they would have to comply with all the latest emissions nonsense which would not be easy.
 

cj_1985

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The engine in the 60s is quite fuel efficient anyway and if they were to fit 'new' engines they would have to comply with all the latest emissions nonsense which would not be easy.

I only offered examples of what a rebuild/re-engineered loco could end up getting... not a factual statement that the Mirralees MB275T lump in the 60s "should" or "has to" be replaced.
 
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cj_1985

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Aren't GBRf getting more 66s? So some Tugs would be a stopgap until they roll off the assembley line?

But the new build 66s are expected in august (based on the 8x loco order)... how long would it take to overhaul a 60 back to operational condition (just a basic return to service, no re-engineering)... even assuming they started the first one today, I would guess it would take what, at least 2 months to completely overhaul ?... then the time for driver and fitter training at GBRf or whoever else... as a short term fix it seems like an expensive and lengthy option... if GBRf or someone else were taking one for longer term use then it would probably be a different story...
 
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Isn't there only a finite number of 66's that can be built/supported?

Therefore I can see GB running 10 locos of this type.

They've got the clout of their owner financially and if they need to hire a 52 and a 55 there's plenty of work that can be shuffled amongst their fleet.
 

cj_1985

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Isn't there only a finite number of 66's that can be built/supported?

Therefore I can see GB running 10 locos of this type.

They've got the clout of their owner financially and if they need to hire a 52 and a 55 there's plenty of work that can be shuffled amongst their fleet.

AIUI from magazine articles, upto about 20 or so locos can be built, but they would have to be delivered by 31st December 2014... and this far only 8 locos have actually been confirmed as ordered, despite numerous sources stating that about 23 or 24 have actually been ordered...
 

route:oxford

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AIUI from magazine articles, upto about 20 or so locos can be built, but they would have to be delivered by 31st December 2014... and this far only 8 locos have actually been confirmed as ordered, despite numerous sources stating that about 23 or 24 have actually been ordered...

What's the limitation that forbids more than 20 being built?
 

cj_1985

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What's the limitation that forbids more than 20 being built?

Off the top of my head I can't remember the specifics, but IIRC the EMD 710 engine (at least the version for the 66s) is no longer compliant to the stage 3b engine emissions standards for new locos, add onto this that the 66 design isn't compliant with yet more new EU rules to do with crashworthiness for the cabs... that I think come into force from the start of 2015
 

Monty

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I don't think it's a done deal yet, But I imagine Brush would have a customer in mind for them. So far GBRf seem to be the only plausible customer for the time being unless they wish to sell them abroad.
 
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cj_1985

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Interesting, so GBRf have rejected the GE Powerhaul in favour of the Class 60.

Aside from rumours... is there actually any factual information in open public circulation that confirms that GBRf ,or any other FOC for that matter, expressed an interest in using class 60s ... or is it just rumours.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I'll believe it when I see it published in a reputable magazine, or see a press release or a one of the 60s being used by someone other than DB...
I like rumours... but they are just that...rumours, not fact until confirmed
 
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tadhatter

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Don't take this the wrong way, but I'll believe it when I see it published in a reputable magazine, or see a press release or a one of the 60s being used by someone other than DB...

would this be a reputable magazine that did an article in the summer about the 60s staying quite categorically that no 60s were for sale - only for the this thread to follow days later informing us that 20 were for sale????
 

cj_1985

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would this be a reputable magazine that did an article in the summer about the 60s staying quite categorically that no 60s were for sale - only for the this thread to follow days later informing us that 20 were for sale????

No, I wouldn't class that rag as reputable... but it is very much down to personal opinion,
 
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455driver

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would this be a reputable magazine that did an article in the summer about the 60s staying quite categorically that no 60s were for sale - only for the this thread to follow days later informing us that 20 were for sale????

There were actually some 60s for sale before that mag even hit the shelves.
They were subsequently removed from sale but Nigel Harris was less than impressed.
 

60008

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Interesting read here. Its nice to see Brush Traction has bought all those in the list. I think it would be a good thing if Brush/Wabtec rebuild them from the ground up inside as they would introduce many new upgrades into those locomotives that weren't probably thought of. In the cab, there could be things like the LCD Display Screen interface which could have the potential for cab signalling (something like what the SD70ACe's have). Combined Power Handle with possibility of adding rheostat brakes (I think the Americans call them "Dynamic Brakes" in the US). AC Traction motors would be a good thing for hauling longer heavier trains on busy sections not to mention that the top speed could be upgraded to say 80-100mph which could allow these rebuilt Class 60's to work passenger trains as well if Brush/Wabtec added HEP and RTC into them. The choice of power unit, well there is a few that could fit inside to replace the (now elderly) Mirrlees block. There is the GE 7FDL12 (I don't think the 16V version would fit but I might be wrong here) that is used on the GEVO and the Class 70 I think. Another option is to use the EMD 16-710G3B as used by the SD70ACe and the Class 66 but this version of the 710 has a supercharger which would give a nice bit of howl in Notch 8.

Here is a video of the SD70ACe which I found on YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCzH-Np-X_s
.....and the GE ES44AC "GEVO" which also sounds quite nice too ;).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKjNd7FvSu0

I think that is Brush/Wabtec used either a EMD (good choice) or a GE (second choice), I think it would give the rebuilt Class 60's another 15-20 years of life in active use with a FOC (or even a TOC if HEP/Push-Pull equipment was fitted and more final drive gears were added to the traction motors to give a higher top speed).

Just a thought.
 

Suraggu

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In my opinion if Wabtec rebuild them I would of guessed, everything would be new. New Cooler Groups, New electrics, new wiring, updated cabs including Air Conditioning, brushless AC Traction Motors, but that costs £££ and I cannot see Wabtec spending all that £££ unless they have firm resales or contract work for the locomotives.

Or they could end up heading abroad.... ;)

In regards to engines, people mention EMD (would probably be a modern CAT engine due to new emission rules & GE but do not forget MTU power units have been fitted to heavy freight locomotives all over the world. I reckon a MTUR43 V20 would be a snug fit ;).
 

HSTEd

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As I understand the power unit is rather fuel efficient as it is.
Leaving it in place avoids all the problems with emissions regs, so I imagine all that the most extensive reconstruction that makes sense would all be downstream.

AC traction package and motors perhaps.
 

captainbigun

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As I understand the power unit is rather fuel efficient as it is.
Leaving it in place avoids all the problems with emissions regs, so I imagine all that the most extensive reconstruction that makes sense would all be downstream.

AC traction package and motors perhaps.

Like for like. Acquiring inverter drives for such a low volume will be prohibitively expensive in my view.
 

Photohunter71

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Wabtec/Brush should have had the option to take the 100 and rebuild them to current specifications which would include a full reconditioning or refurbishment of the Mirrlees Blackstone MB275 or seek an entirely new engine from MAN (Sulzer/Pielstick/Mirrlees Blackstone/Ruston/Paxman/Blohm & Voss)
 

YorkshireBear

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Wabtec/Brush should have had the option to take the 100 and rebuild them to current specifications which would include a full reconditioning or refurbishment of the Mirrlees Blackstone MB275 or seek an entirely new engine from MAN (Sulzer/Pielstick/Mirrlees Blackstone/Ruston/Paxman/Blohm & Voss)

Why should they? The owners only wanted to sell 20.
 

Crawley Ben

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Wabtec/Brush should have had the option to take the 100 and rebuild them to current specifications which would include a full reconditioning or refurbishment of the Mirrlees Blackstone MB275 or seek an entirely new engine from MAN (Sulzer/Pielstick/Mirrlees Blackstone/Ruston/Paxman/Blohm & Voss)

I can't see the DB agreeing to sell the entire fleet especially given the £££ spent on overhauling 21 of them in recent months........ :lol:

Ben
 

HSTEd

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Like for like. Acquiring inverter drives for such a low volume will be prohibitively expensive in my view.

Perhaps, but they are of generally similar power output as the Vossloh Euro and that has a Co-Co variation.

So it is not beyond the realms of possibility.
 

hwl

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Perhaps, but they are of generally similar power output as the Vossloh Euro and that has a Co-Co variation.

So it is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Exactly and Vossloh supplying the new AC traction pack equipment for the SWT 455s as they wanted to enter the retractioning market. Also Brush / Hitachi experience with the SE 465s traction equipment. Most of the equipment will be modular so not that big a problem.

Presumably if the 1st 20 are successful more might follow?
 

cj_1985

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Exactly and Vossloh supplying the new AC traction pack equipment for the SWT 455s as they wanted to enter the retractioning market. Also Brush / Hitachi experience with the SE 465s traction equipment. Most of the equipment will be modular so not that big a problem.

Presumably if the 1st 20 are successful more might follow?

That probably depends more on DBS putting any more up for sale...
 
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