Penalty for fare evasion at sutton please help

[calippo]

Hello everyone.

On Monday I made one the most stupid decisions of my life by trying to going through a barrier at Sutton station in zone 5 of south london with another person. I did have the money on my oyster to pay for the journey and have an annual travelcard for zones 1-4 but its probably better explained below....

This is NOT something I have done before and am so ashamed and terrified of receiving a criminal record for my actions that I feel I had to seek some help with this matter, and I came across your forum which has been a great help. I understand from the officer that took my statement that I will be sent a copy of it in the post and hopefully given the oppotunity to reply with a written statement of my own. It hasnt arrived as of yet, but I was hoping to send the following letter which explains the whole incident truthfully and would really appreciate it if any of you could let me know if it seems a sincere enough response.
thank you all so much





To Whom This May Concern

On October 21st 2013, I began my journey at New Malden Station. I travelled on South West Trains to Wimbledon, where I left the station to meet my brother and then returned to Wimbledon station around 30minutes later. On my return to the station I found the ticket barriers open. Owning an annual zone 1-4 season ticket I did not feel the need to tap into the system and continued to catch the First Capital Connect service to Sutton station. It was only on arriving at Sutton station that I realised I was outside the zone boundary allowed on my travel card. Despite knowing I had £5 of pre-pay credit on my Oyster card, I was aware that having not tapped my Oyster card in at Wimbledon, I was liable for a penalty fare by touching out in Sutton. Of course with rational hinds sight I have no doubt that approaching the ticket office or gate inspector and explaining my situation or simply accepting my fault and receiving the penalty fare from the ticket gate, would have been the correct and mature approach, however instead I chose to deliberately try and manipulate the system, avoiding my fare, by passing through the barriers with another unsuspecting ticket holder.

For this I am deeply regretful, not only because of the consequences on myself that have since been made aware to me by my childish actions, but also because of the sheer lack respect I have shown to the officers and rail network which I rely on daily. Furthermore I fully admit that after I was asked to give a statement by the officer at the scene, I gave a false account of the proceedings saying I had accidentally gone through the barrier with another person thinking the system had scanned my Oyster card. This disgraceful action is perhaps even more shameful, but I went into a panicked state at the sight of so many police at the scene, and was terrified of being arrested. I hope you can understand this.

Since the time of the incident I have been suffering with terrible anxiety and guilt. I purchased an annual travel card because I consider myself a responsible adult, working and living in London, yet clearly this incident has demonstrated that I have not earned the right to call myself such. I feel deeply ashamed by my actions, and furthermore sincerely apologetic to both the rail network, and especially the officer who took my statement.

I fully understand that there are going to be consequences for my actions, and that simply saying how sorry I am is not enough, but if I were to receive a criminal record it would destroy my future and possibly loose me my job. I know I am certainly in no position to be asking for anything, but if there was anyway this situation could be settled out of court through a fine, or by whatever means you were to deem necessary, not only would you have my forever gratitude but my promise that I would never ever try to avoid a fare on any transport network again.

Once again I can only offer my deepest apologies and assurances that this will never happen again.

Sincerely
my name

 

[FGW_DID]

Like most advice on here, wait till you receive any letter from the TOC concerned and consider any likely charges that they mention.

Fair play for holding your hands up and "fessing up" to what you have done but I think if you send them that letter, you would be inviting a prosecution leading to a criminal record!

Reading it, towards the end, I was half expecting a confession to the assassination of JFK!

Play the waiting game, get the letter and see what the (possible) out of court settlement is.

 

[VauxhallandI]

FYI it is "lose my job" not " loose"

 

[alex595]

Hello everyone.

On Monday I made one the most stupid decisions of my life by trying to going through a barrier at Sutton station in zone 5 of south london with another person. I did have the money on my oyster to pay for the journey and have an annual travelcard for zones 1-4 but its probably better explained below....

This is NOT something I have done before and am so ashamed and terrified of receiving a criminal record for my actions that I feel I had to seek some help with this matter, and I came across your forum which has been a great help. I understand from the officer that took my statement that I will be sent a copy of it in the post and hopefully given the oppotunity to reply with a written statement of my own. It hasnt arrived as of yet, but I was hoping to send the following letter which explains the whole incident truthfully and would really appreciate it if any of you could let me know if it seems a sincere enough response.
thank you all so much





To Whom This May Concern

On October 21st 2013, I began my journey at New Malden Station. I travelled on South West Trains to Wimbledon, where I left the station to meet my brother and then returned to Wimbledon station around 30minutes later. On my return to the station I found the ticket barriers open. Owning an annual zone 1-4 season ticket I did not feel the need to tap into the system and continued to catch the First Capital Connect service to Sutton station. It was only on arriving at Sutton station that I realised I was outside the zone boundary allowed on my travel card. Despite knowing I had £5 of pre-pay credit on my Oyster card, I was aware that having not tapped my Oyster card in at Wimbledon, I was liable for a penalty fare by touching out in Sutton. Of course with rational hinds sight I have no doubt that approaching the ticket office or gate inspector and explaining my situation or simply accepting my fault and receiving the penalty fare from the ticket gate, would have been the correct and mature approach, however instead I chose to deliberately try and manipulate the system, avoiding my fare, by passing through the barriers with another unsuspecting ticket holder.

For this I am deeply regretful, not only because of the consequences on myself that have since been made aware to me by my childish actions, but also because of the sheer lack respect I have shown to the officers and rail network which I rely on daily. Furthermore I fully admit that after I was asked to give a statement by the officer at the scene, I gave a false account of the proceedings saying I had accidentally gone through the barrier with another person thinking the system had scanned my Oyster card. This disgraceful action is perhaps even more shameful, but I went into a panicked state at the sight of so many police at the scene, and was terrified of being arrested. I hope you can understand this.

Since the time of the incident I have been suffering with terrible anxiety and guilt. I purchased an annual travel card because I consider myself a responsible adult, working and living in London, yet clearly this incident has demonstrated that I have not earned the right to call myself such. I feel deeply ashamed by my actions, and furthermore sincerely apologetic to both the rail network, and especially the officer who took my statement.

I fully understand that there are going to be consequences for my actions, and that simply saying how sorry I am is not enough, but if I were to receive a criminal record it would destroy my future and possibly loose me my job. I know I am certainly in no position to be asking for anything, but if there was anyway this situation could be settled out of court through a fine, or by whatever means you were to deem necessary, not only would you have my forever gratitude but my promise that I would never ever try to avoid a fare on any transport network again.

Once again I can only offer my deepest apologies and assurances that this will never happen again.

Sincerely
my name

Oystercards need to be tapped in at the start and end of each journey, despite the fact you had a 1-4 travelcard. Its because the money you used to purchase the travelcard goes to tfl. So by tapping your oystercard in and out the train operating company you used (SWT/FCC) would receive money from tfl.


Which route did the officer take e.g Penalty Fare ?
How did you react and what was your response e.g For a penalty fare did you pay the full amount or not?
What details did he take?

 

[maniacmartin]

Its because the money you used to purchase the travelcard goes to tfl. So by tapping your oystercard in and out the train operating company you used (SWT/FCC) would receive money from tfl.

Do you have a source for this?

 

[alex595]

Im a RPO, this is what myself and my colleagues are told by trainers/management

 

[yorkie]

Oystercards need to be tapped in at the start and end of each journey, despite the fact you had a 1-4 travelcard. Its because the money you used to purchase the travelcard goes to tfl. So by tapping your oystercard in and out the train operating company you used (SWT/FCC) would receive money from tfl.

So you're saying that the revenue distribution for Travelcards is different, depending on the medium they're issued on?

Not that revenue allocation has any bearing on validity whatsoever, though, so this is purely a matter of interest, and not of validity.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I understand that this question reveals a failing in the implementation of Railway Privatisation. The Government clearly anticipated full intervailability of tickets, which led to the creation of the necessary agreements to ensure that revenue would acrue to the appropriate operators: The LRT (now TfL) Agreement, the Travelcard Agreement and the Through Ticketing Non-Travelcard Agreement. There were other agreements for travel to Eire, Northern Ireland and on Eurostar and interavailability with busses and LU.
It is the Travelcard Agreement which applies to this incident. I also understand that the Mayor of London has demonstrated more enthusiasm for fulfilling Government's expectations in the interavailability of Travelcards than have the TOCs or their negotiating agent, ATOC.

However, the Travelcards were a pre-privatisation product and became 'protected products'. Government's intention were not fulfilled. Both the TOCs and TfL could have done more, and in my view were required to do more, to ensure the interavailaility of Travelcards at all shared stations, and that where this has not been implemented, any attempt to penalise the passenger is ultra vires. (i.e. it is the Company that is at fault, not the ticket-holding passenger) [But I can't see any passenger having the confidence to challenge any operator with this failing].

 

[sarahj]

I thought the problem was the OP had a 1-4 TC/Oyster and was trying to travel from a zone 5 station, so tried to get through without paying the extra. How can it be the railways fault for not implementing TC's correctly in this case?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I think you're right.
The conversation had strayed a little - not so much 'off topic' but 'wider topic'. I apologise for the resultant confusion.

 

[yorkie]

If, instead of saying

"Oystercards need to be tapped in at the start and end of each journey, despite the fact you had a 1-4 travelcard. Its because the money you used to purchase the travelcard goes to tfl. So by tapping your oystercard in and out the train operating company you used (SWT/FCC) would receive money from tfl. "
​

alex595 had said something like:

"If you are found outside the Zones for which your Travelcard covers, and have avoided tapping in & out, you are travelling beyond your validity without any means to pay the fare due, and either a Penalty Fare or prosecution may be deemed appropriate, depending on the circumstances."
​

Then we'd be in agreement, and not straying off-topic.

There is never any need to enter into a debate about revenue distribution to determine validity, as that is not how validity is determined. It is quite possible, and totally legitimate, to use (a) ticket(s) which give the operator you use very little or no revenue at all, an example I often give is London - Peterborough using a London - Peterborough single/return and a Peterborough - Huntingdon season (or vice-versa) on East Coast.

Talk of revenue distribution just confuses the matter and is off-topic. The public have no access to revenue distribution figures anyway (though it'd be interesting to find out!)

 

[alex595]

If, instead of saying

"Oystercards need to be tapped in at the start and end of each journey, despite the fact you had a 1-4 travelcard. Its because the money you used to purchase the travelcard goes to tfl. So by tapping your oystercard in and out the train operating company you used (SWT/FCC) would receive money from tfl. "
​

alex595 had said something like:

"If you are found outside the Zones for which your Travelcard covers, and have avoided tapping in & out, you are travelling beyond your validity without any means to pay the fare due, and either a Penalty Fare or prosecution may be deemed appropriate, depending on the circumstances."
​

Then we'd be in agreement, and not straying off-topic.

There is never any need to enter into a debate about revenue distribution to determine validity, as that is not how validity is determined. It is quite possible, and totally legitimate, to use (a) ticket(s) which give the operator you use very little or no revenue at all, an example I often give is London - Peterborough using a London - Peterborough single/return and a Peterborough - Huntingdon season (or vice-versa) on East Coast.

Talk of revenue distribution just confuses the matter and is off-topic. The public have no access to revenue distribution figures anyway (though it'd be interesting to find out!)

Now thats what I meant lol. Thanks

 

[En4orc3R]

Getting back on topic then, I agree with FGW_DID, wait until you receive a letter from the Prosecution department.

The letter can then be sent which should be accepted with an agreement to pay their costs to date as well as the fare avoided.

 

[calippo]

thank you all very much for the replys and correction of 'loose' that would been embarrassing. I will wait for the letter to arrive, I just hope it comes soon. Regarding touching in when you are within the zone boundaries of your travelcard? I'm not sure I fully understand. Surely having paid for an annual 1-4 pass it shouldn't matter if i touch in. i'm valid to be there and TFL already has the money? Am I missing something. I obviously want to avoid anything like this in the future.

 

[FGW_DID]

https://oyster.tfl.gov.uk/oyster/entry.do

All about Oyster by TfL

There is still a requirement to tap in & out.

 

[yorkie]

thank you all very much for the replys and correction of 'loose' that would been embarrassing. I will wait for the letter to arrive, I just hope it comes soon. Regarding touching in when you are within the zone boundaries of your travelcard? I'm not sure I fully understand. Surely having paid for an annual 1-4 pass it shouldn't matter if i touch in. i'm valid to be there and TFL already has the money? Am I missing something. I obviously want to avoid anything like this in the future.

But you went out of your Zones, so I don't understand your argument "within the zone boundaries of your travelcard" - your journey was not wholly within the zone boundaries of your travelcard.

If you had stayed within your Zones, then I agree it would not be appropriate for any action to be taken against you.

But the instant you go outside your Zones, you have no valid ticket or authority to travel - unless you have pre-purchased a Boundary Zone 4 extension ticket or touched in, and have sufficient PAYG balance.

I obviously want to avoid anything like this in the future.

That's easy. Get auto top-up loaded onto your Oyster card and tap in and out and you will be charged the appropriate excess automatically when appropriate (e.g. if you travel to Zone 5).

If your journey is beyond the Oyster PAYG area, then you will need to purchase a Boundary Zone 4 extension ticket in advance.

In some cases you will not be charged any extra if your origin & destination are inside your Zones, but you go via Zones for which you are not covered, but providing you are tapping in and out then you cannot be penalised.

(An example of this would be a Zones 1-3 Travelcard going from central London to Neasden via Wembley Park - if you are tapped in you will not be penalised or charged, but if you are caught between Neasden and Wemley Park when not tapped in then you can be issued a PF or prosecuted).

 

[calippo]

But you went out of your Zones, so I don't understand your argument "within the zone boundaries of your travelcard" - your journey was not wholly within the zone boundaries of your travelcard.

If you had stayed within your Zones, then I agree it would not be appropriate for any action to be taken against you.

But the instant you go outside your Zones, you have no valid ticket or authority to travel - unless you have pre-purchased a Boundary Zone 4 extension ticket or touched in, and have sufficient PAYG balance.

That's easy. Get auto top-up loaded onto your Oyster card and tap in and out and you will be charged the appropriate excess automatically when appropriate (e.g. if you travel to Zone 5).

If your journey is beyond the Oyster PAYG area, then you will need to purchase a Boundary Zone 4 extension ticket in advance.

In some cases you will not be charged any extra if your origin & destination are inside your Zones, but you go via Zones for which you are not covered, but providing you are tapping in and out then you cannot be penalised.

(An example of this would be a Zones 1-3 Travelcard going from central London to Neasden via Wembley Park - if you are tapped in you will not be penalised or charged, but if you are caught between Neasden and Wemley Park when not tapped in then you can be issued a PF or prosecuted).

I think there has clearly been some misunderstanding here. I am well aware I went outside of my zone boundaries. I have a 1-4 travelcard and Sutton(as i am now well aware) is in zone 5. On the occasion in question I deliberately tried to avoid this by passing through the barriers with another person. For this I am very sorry and obviously the penalty I am being charged with is in accordance with this incident, and again, yes I am fully aware of how it is justified.

My question in my last post was in reference to what I believed someone else was saying about what 'I' had referred to in my letter of statement posted in the first post. I stated that I had entered Wimbledon Station to find the barriers open, owning an annual 1-4 travelcard I did not feel the need to touch into the system, and boarded a train to sutton. It was only upon arriving at Sutton, that I realised I was outside my zone boundary allowance hence why I chose the stupid decision to go through the barrier with someone else.

I thought on the previous page someone was saying that regardless of whether I am in zones, I should be tapping into the system even if my travel is within my allowed zones because of something to do with networks getting money for the amount of journeys made by customers or something similar? My question was to ask how that worked, since if I have already paid for an annual pass, then TFL already have the money so what difference does it make if i'm tapped in or not (as long as im within my zones).

Nothing to do with going outside my zones, and nothing to do with pre-pay oysters. Hope that has cleared it up. Sorry if i've been nothing but confusing, you've all, on the other hand, been very helpful

 

[londonbridge]

Sorry but it IS to do with going outside of your zones.

If you are found outside your zones without having touched in (when your journey originated inside your zones) the system cannot charge you the appropriate extension fare as it has no information as to where you boarded the train. The RPI doesn't know where you boarded the train either-for all (s)he knows you could have arrived at Sutton having boarded somewhere else in zone 5 or 6 looking for a free ride.

Your point that 'you didn't see the need to touch in' because you were valid to be there is irrelevant-yes you WERE valid to be there but failing to touch in rendered your travelcard INVALID to go outside of your zones. This has been clearly expained to you.

 

[yorkie]

Callioppo - yes there is a misunderstanding, please refer to my posts above. Firstly I did challenge the post which confused you and the member who posted agreed with me, so that should settle any confusion regarding journeys within your zones. Secondly posts do clarify that when you leave your zones you need to either purchase an extension ticket (before travel) or touch in and out if using PAYG, but if I didn't make myself clear I apologise and I suggest you re-read my posts above and also read our RailUK Fares and Ticketing guide, which is linked to from the main forum page, and has a section on Oyster. If you have any further questions about anything in our Guide please ask.

 

[NathanPrior]

Sorry but it IS to do with going outside of your zones.

If you are found outside your zones without having touched in (when your journey originated inside your zones) the system cannot charge you the appropriate extension fare as it has no information as to where you boarded the train. The RPI doesn't know where you boarded the train either-for all (s)he knows you could have arrived at Sutton having boarded somewhere else in zone 5 or 6 looking for a free ride.

Your point that 'you didn't see the need to touch in' because you were valid to be there is irrelevant-yes you WERE valid to be there but failing to touch in rendered your travelcard INVALID to go outside of your zones. This has been clearly expained to you.

I do believe the bits in bold are wrong. The fare would have been calculated from the the last station within the zone boundary to Sutton. I used to do this when going into Zone 1 when I had a Zone 2-4 travelcard loaded on my Oyster.

If you have a travelcard loaded I don't think there is a requirement to touch in as has been pointed out on here before on other threads.

 

[calippo]

Sorry but it IS to do with going outside of your zones.

If you are found outside your zones without having touched in (when your journey originated inside your zones) the system cannot charge you the appropriate extension fare as it has no information as to where you boarded the train. The RPI doesn't know where you boarded the train either-for all (s)he knows you could have arrived at Sutton having boarded somewhere else in zone 5 or 6 looking for a free ride.

Your point that 'you didn't see the need to touch in' because you were valid to be there is irrelevant-yes you WERE valid to be there but failing to touch in rendered your travelcard INVALID to go outside of your zones. This has been clearly expained to you.

I really think people are getting me all wrong. I thought I had made it clear in my previous post but obviously not. So hopefully for the final time let me try an explain.

My INITIAL POST has NOTHING to do with the question I asked in my second post which is what I think yourself and Yorkie seem to think it is.

Regarding touching in when you are within the zone boundaries of your travelcard? I'm not sure I fully understand. Surely having paid for an annual 1-4 pass it shouldn't matter if i touch in. i'm valid to be there and TFL already has the money? Am I missing something. I obviously want to avoid anything like this in the future.

that question was in DIRECT relation to the quote below posted before, which member Alex595 seems to be suggesting that regardless of whether I am in zones i need to touch in due to train companies receiving money from TFL for my travel. I was simply asking for this be explained more since I have not heard about that before.

Oystercards need to be tapped in at the start and end of each journey, despite the fact you had a 1-4 travelcard. Its because the money you used to purchase the travelcard goes to tfl. So by tapping your oystercard in and out the train operating company you used (SWT/FCC) would receive money from tfl.

So please for the final time, I am WELL aware that travelling outside the zone boundaries or through an area not on your TC is not allowed and is liable for penalty fare. And once again, The question raised above and all my previous posts (besides the first) are in direct relation to ALEX595's post Nothing to do with my initial post.

 

[calippo]

In fact I will give an example to clarify further what i believe ALex959 to be saying.

I have a 1-4 travel card. Wimbledon is in zone 3, raynes park is in zone 4. As far as i was aware, if the barriers at wimbledon were open and I travelled to raynes park it wouldnt be a problem since I have a ticket covering both zones. But it would appear he is suggesting that it DOES matter, as the train company should be getting money from TFL for my journey.

 

[swt_passenger]

There has to be a system in the Oyster back office that shares out Oyster travel card income between the TOCs and TfL. Pre-Oyster the paper travel card income was shared out based on annual surveys.

Oyster must give them the ability to track actual usage of travel card seasons - but I don't think anyone knows by what exact method the total income is apportioned. It is almost certain that SWT don't get paid a small sum each individual time a trravelcard holder uses one of their routes, I'd expect them to get a periodic large sum of money worked out statistically. For a pure travel card transaction, I don't think Alex959's point would be right.

When it comes to apportioning PAYG fares to TOCs or TfL there must be a similarly complex system of sharing out the fare to various TOCs or TfL, especially in the general case of parallel routes where they might not know whose specific train you got on. Now it is also possible that all 'maximum cash fares' resulting from unresolved journeys (such as you should have paid at Sutton) go into a central pot of money, and because the system does't know how to determine what the real journey was it cannot correctly recompense individual TOCs, there is therefore a potential loss to the local TOC as Alex959 originally said.

I very much doubt anyone who posts here knows how Oyster fare apportionment works down to the last finite detail, and I personally suspect that people working in revenue at the coalface, whether for TfL or the TOCs don't have the full details either, just what they need to know to do the day job...

 

[34D]

I really think people are getting me all wrong. I thought I had made it clear in my previous post but obviously not. So hopefully for the final time let me try an explain.

My INITIAL POST has NOTHING to do with the question I asked in my second post which is what I think yourself and Yorkie seem to think it is.



that question was in DIRECT relation to the quote below posted before, which member Alex595 seems to be suggesting that regardless of whether I am in zones i need to touch in due to train companies receiving money from TFL for my travel. I was simply asking for this be explained more since I have not heard about that before.

Let me do it simply. With an oyster travelcard, even when travelling wholly within your zones, the rules require you to "always touch in and touch out". However, with a travelcard in its zones, there is no penalty for not doing so.

Is that clear enough?

 

[calippo]

I see, thank you for giving me your thoughts on the issue.

The reason I was asking, is that I live in New Malden, and there are no ticket barriers on my entrance to the station. There is one of those readers, but especially during rush hour the queue to the reader is so long, and it begins to block the stairs exit from the platform, so I (and many others presumably travelcard owners) tend to avoid it. But that was because I honestly didn't think it made a difference . I will in future though touch in regardless.

 

[calippo]

Let me do it simply. With an oyster travelcard, even when travelling wholly within your zones, the rules require you to "always touch in and touch out". However, with a travelcard in its zones, there is no penalty for not doing so.

Is that clear enough?

It is now very clear and once again i'm sorry to all if i've come across in any way rude or arrogant, I think I must have, but I can only give you my word it was not my intention.

 

[maniacmartin]

Oyster must give them the ability to track actual usage of travel card seasons

They may do this, but I don't see any evidence that they definitely do

 

[swt_passenger]

They may do this, but I don't see any evidence that they definitely do

That's what I understand too, from what I've read over the years, that they can track all journeys in theory but don't in practice.

Whatever they can eventually do with Oyster though, while paper travelcards and paper out-boundary travelcards remain their revenue must still be apportioned to TfL/TOCs by survey anyway.

 

[Mojo]

I do believe the bits in bold are wrong. The fare would have been calculated from the the last station within the zone boundary to Sutton. I used to do this when going into Zone 1 when I had a Zone 2-4 travelcard loaded on my Oyster.

If you have a travelcard loaded I don't think there is a requirement to touch in as has been pointed out on here before on other threads.

The person you quoted was correct. There is a requirement to touch in and out if at any point in your journey you will be travelling outside of your paid-for zones.

If you did not touch in then you will be hit with the maximum fare when you attempt to touch out, outside of your zones.

If you have insufficient PAYG balance for the maximum fare you cannot exit where barriers are in use. If you are inspected outside of your zones, not having touched in, then you could be made to buy a new ticket/pay a Penalty fare/be reported for prosecution/etc.

 

[jon0844]

I've always believed that everyone should tap in and out, but someone with a TC within the zones won't have anything happen to them (but enforcement could come later on and you'd have no excuse if caught).

If you don't tap in within the zones and then get caught out by going into another zone, you've definitely got no excuse even now.