London Bridge (SE) - no NRCoC available

[RJ]

I was compelled to go to the Southeastern ticket office at London Bridge today after a number of Southern gateline staff stated that it was not permissible to leave at an intermediate station on the line of route of a ticket. They also said that London Not Underground routed tickets (such as South Bermondsey to Lewisham) and Not Underground tickets (such as East Croydon to London St Pancras) were not valid at London Bridge, because they had no Maltese Cross.

I went to the ticket office to obtain a copy of the NRCoC so I could show it to the gateline staff. However, the staff in the ticket office, after an unsuccessful attempt to find a several years banned NRCoC booklet, claimed that they were not required to provide me with a copy of it as it is available online.

Normally Southeastern's staff are quite good with ticketing matters so I was quite surprised at this - a copy of the NRCoC is supposed to be available at every single ticket office in the UK.

Secondly, I asked the ticket office clerk if she could print something out to show that a permitted route from Barnham to Martin Mill is via London Bridge. Although she got it up on RJIS, she refused to print it out, which would have taken all of 10 seconds. Instead, she handed me a London and South East map and said that I could use that to determine my own permitted route and show that to the gateline staff. She wasn't able to provide any level of explanation on how I'd set about finding which routes were permitted. I was quite bemused as to her decision to create a problem and start losing her temper, when all she had to do was click print, pass me the information I needed and let me be on my way.

Is this substandard service or am I being unreasonable to expect that a ticket office clerk should know that they're required to supply a copy of the NRCoC on request?

 

[yorkie]

It is substandard, but is not at all surprising, and is the sort of thing I'd actually expect at a location like London Bridge.

There's no ombudsman, mystery shopping is woefully inadequate, there's no effective regulator, and no knowledgeable passenger watchdog, so who is going to ensure standards are consistently good? Nobody.

 

[RJ]

It's a pity that ticket offices are so hit and miss. I've been to some where the service has been great - Waterloo and Marylebone for example, as well as several suburban locations in London. Most regretfully, I've had the misfortune of going to places where the ticket office service is not so good.

All these people who pride themselves in being useless at doing anything that a TVM can't do are doing is making the case for those who say that ticket offices aren't necessary and suggest they are closed as a cost cutting measure. The ticket office is often the first staff contact that passengers can have on the railways. I wish the TOCs would do a better job of populating them with people who love interacting with customers and have the capability + willingness to do the job well .

 

[maniacmartin]

Welcome to my world. The only part of the story I'm surprised about is the bit where you said you were surprised. Your reason for wanting the NRCoC and denial are the same as in my thread.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Every ticket office must have a copy for use at the time of sale (if required), but they don't have to provide a copy for you to take away. They should, however, make provision for those without internet access. This can be in the form of taking down your name and address and passing them on to their customer services department so that they can post you a copy.

 

[Haywain]

Every ticket office should have a copy of NCoC available, and should print out a copy for the customer on request (which, in reality, means once or twice a year).

 

[Deerfold]

Normally Southeastern's staff are quite good with ticketing matters so I was quite surprised at this - a copy of the NRCoC is supposed to be available at every single ticket office in the UK.

I was held for 15 minutes at London Bridge by a member of Southeastern staff at London Bridge when one member of staff refused to believe that a TfL staff pass could possibly be valid at London Bridge (it's only valid on one route from one direction, but that's how I'd got there). He told me he'd had lots of people claiming they were valid, even "showing him the conditions of their pass or letters from directors, but they're all wrong". He tried to show me a fuzzy photo on his phone of the pass I "should have" but it was hard to see what it was other than a piece of cardboard with a FCC logo on it.

Eventually he returned to the gateline and another member of staff was actually willing to try and check with someone else and having twice failed to get through to FCC staff by phone (as it's their trains the ticket is valid on) let me through the barrier.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Technically speaking, the ticket office staff are right about the NRCoC. The Manual says customers should be directed online, and only where they have a disability or no internet access should a copy be printed or details should be taken to allow customer relations to post a copy.

Given that you are agreeing to the NRCoC when you purchase a ticket, I'm very surprised at this. Given the law says onerous contract terms need to be provided to you at the time of purchase, I'm not sure how ATOC justify it, other than because there's no rail ombudsman there's no oversight.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Technically speaking, the ticket office staff are right about the NRCoC. The Manual says . . . . .

I agree.
The Manual, which is the guide for front-line staff, does lead the passenger towards the online reference.

However, The Manual does not form part of the customer contract, and the intending passenger does retain the right to examine the T&Cs of the contract to which they are about to agree. (It was just the other day that staff and others on here were emphasising the importance of passenger's duty to read and understand their T&C before travelling!)

I believe that in this respect, The Manual puts front-line staff in an unsatisfactory position.

 

[swt_passenger]

Perhaps at large stations they should put up a poster sized version. If they used small print like those widespread 'health and safety rules' you see everywhere they'd probably get the NRCofC on one sheet...

 

[richw]

Technically speaking, the ticket office staff are right about the NRCoC. The Manual says customers should be directed online, and only where they have a disability or no internet access should a copy be printed or details should be taken to allow customer relations to post a copy.

Given that you are agreeing to the NRCoC when you purchase a ticket, I'm very surprised at this. Given the law says onerous contract terms need to be provided to you at the time of purchase, I'm not sure how ATOC justify it, other than because there's no rail ombudsman there's no oversight.

How Many customers have internet access at the station whilst trying to show a journey to the gate staff, or buy a ticket? If it was needed at that time most people will have no internet access there and then.

 

[maniacmartin]

Every ticket office must have a copy for use at the time of sale (if required), but they don't have to provide a copy for you to take away.

I'm sure RJ would have been happy to hand the copy to the gateline staff to keep, thus not taking it away from the station

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....I believe that in this respect, The Manual puts front-line staff in an unsatisfactory position.

The manual says that staff must have a copy of the NRCoC for use at the time of sale (if required) or for enquiries, an 'office copy' if you like.

I'm sure RJ would have been happy to hand the copy to the gateline staff to keep, thus not taking it away from the station

I didn't mention taking it away from the station.

 

[sheff1]

I too am only surprised that RJ was surprised. Being based in Sheffield I always assume that any interaction with the ticket office which is more than a request for a single ticket to a nearby station will go badly. I am only surprised when it doesn't.

Fortunately we don't have barriers here (yet) - a combination of incompetent barrier and ticket office staff on an almost daily basis would be too much to take.

Going back to RJ's post, i once had a barrier numpty at London Bridge tell me a Three Bridges to St Pancras* (Not Underground) ticket was not valid there - you couldn't make it up !

* or, as he insisted on calling it, 'St Pancreas'

 

[tsr]

I have come across gateline staff who refuse to believe an electronic copy of the NRCoC (or anything from National Rail Enquiries or other official sources) is valid "because you could have got it from anywhere" - even when I showed the URL they would not believe me. Fair enough, as I'm sure a few hardened idiots/fare-dodgers decide they can save anything to a PDF and thereby "prove" their ticket(s) is/are valid.

For this reason and for the others mentioned, I do find it both annoying and frankly perverse that an official copy would not be available to mediate disputes - a hard copy, stamped by a ticket office, is hard to deny. However, I too am not surprised at this thread.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I believe that in this respect, The Manual puts front-line staff in an unsatisfactory position.

I think it does too. I firmly believe that the NRCoC should be on formal printed leaflets available in racks at each and every staffed station. The fact that it isn't undermines much of what ATOC try and argue about understanding the terms and conditions of your ticket when you buy or use it.

But then much of what ATOC do and say is wholly unsatisfactory. Anyone would think that their members benefit financially from the obfuscation.

 

[jimbouk1]

I understand that ticket offices are now instructed to point customers to the PDF copy on the National Rail website for NRCoC, but TOC Customer Services would probably print/send a copy if requested. Out of interest about the Martin Mill ticket/printout - if that relates to an earlier post about Martin Mill - Bosham (routed Barnham) then it wouldn't be valid via London anyway? There are ticket routes for that journey specifically via London, and because Barnham - Martin Mill tickets can be routed via London (with cross-London marker) doesn't mean that Bosham - Martin Mill ticket, routed Barnham (with no cross-London marker or routing) can be used via London Bridge surely?

 

[maniacmartin]

I understand that ticket offices are now instructed to point customers to the PDF copy on the National Rail website for NRCoC, but TOC Customer Services would probably print/send a copy if requested

Great idea. RJ should have ordered one then waiting at the gateline for 2-3 days until Royal Mail deliver it to him at the station. That's not all that helpful

 

[Paul Kelly]

There are ticket routes for that journey specifically via London, and because Barnham - Martin Mill tickets can be routed via London (with cross-London marker) doesn't mean that Bosham - Martin Mill ticket, routed Barnham (with no cross-London marker or routing) can be used via London Bridge surely?

Are you saying that the permitted routes for a given fare should vary depending on what other fares exist for the same journey? That doesn't sound like a very workable system to me. What is printed on the ticket should be what determines its validity.

If the ticket showed "Barnham Not London" for the route then it would indeed not be valid via London, but it doesn't. As long as London is a permitted route for that flow, then a route of "via Barnham" doesn't preclude going via London and Barnham - although any cross-London transfer would need to be at your own expense, since the ticket does not have a Maltese cross.

 

[RJ]

I understand that ticket offices are now instructed to point customers to the PDF copy on the National Rail website for NRCoC, but TOC Customer Services would probably print/send a copy if requested. Out of interest about the Martin Mill ticket/printout - if that relates to an earlier post about Martin Mill - Bosham (routed Barnham) then it wouldn't be valid via London anyway? There are ticket routes for that journey specifically via London, and because Barnham - Martin Mill tickets can be routed via London (with cross-London marker) doesn't mean that Bosham - Martin Mill ticket, routed Barnham (with no cross-London marker or routing) can be used via London Bridge surely?

Looking at the National Routeing Guide;

Where the fare specifies a particular route, you may choose only those routes listed in the Guide which pass through the station shown in the route description. The National Routeing Guide may be used to find out how to reach the station shown in the route description.

That seems conclusive to me. I used the National Routeing Guide and its newly compulsory electronic counterpart to establish the permitted routes between Martin Mill and Barnham so there should have been no scope for argument really. Unfortunately, the bloke in the excess fares box didn't want to use his computer to check the permitted routes and one of the Southeastern staff in the ticket office pulled the blind down in my face. That was because I asked him for a printout of permitted routes between Martin Mill and Barham and wasn't content with his response - which was handing me a London and South East map and telling me to go and determine a permitted route with the barrier staff using that map. He was in a hurry to go home and didn't want to check using his computer. Later on, I returned to the ticket office and his colleague got the information up on her screen. I only asked her to print it off for me, but she adamantly refused to do so. For what reason, I don't know.

The contract between the customer and TOC states Train Companies and other Ticket Sellers must give you, if you ask, information they have access to about whether your intended route is valid with your ticket. To be fair, if TOCs insist on penalising people for not upholding their contractual obligations, they should expect to by sued for not upholding theirs.

The NRCoC places far too much trust in retail staff knowing what they're talking about. It would very much seem that the NRCoC is maintained by people with an idealistic view of the capabilities of many people employed in ticketing.

 

[tsr]

Are you saying that the permitted routes for a given fare should vary depending on what other fares exist for the same journey? That doesn't sound like a very workable system to me. What is printed on the ticket should be what determines its validity.

If the ticket showed "Barnham Not London" for the route then it would indeed not be valid via London, but it doesn't. As long as London is a permitted route for that flow, then a route of "via Barnham" doesn't preclude going via London and Barnham - although any cross-London transfer would need to be at your own expense, since the ticket does not have a Maltese cross.

I admit I haven't looked it up, but is travel via Clapham Junction/Waterloo/Waterloo East/London Bridge valid?

 

[RJ]

I too am only surprised that RJ was surprised. Being based in Sheffield I always assume that any interaction with the ticket office which is more than a request for a single ticket to a nearby station will go badly. I am only surprised when it doesn't.

Fortunately we don't have barriers here (yet) - a combination of incompetent barrier and ticket office staff on an almost daily basis would be too much to take.

Going back to RJ's post, i once had a barrier numpty at London Bridge tell me a Three Bridges to St Pancras* (Not Underground) ticket was not valid there - you couldn't make it up !

* or, as he insisted on calling it, 'St Pancreas'

You really couldn't make it up. I contacted Southern today about their staff at London Bridge stating tickets needed a Maltese Cross to be valid at London Bridge - including London Not Und tickets and Not Underground ticket. Apparently they will be briefed, but I will be following this up with a full scale complaint about the conduct of the barrier staff.

I actually like Southern very much as a TOC - they and their predecessors been my local TOC since forever for me. I find their trains very pleasant/reliable and have never had any on board staff taking exception to a valid ticket I've shown them, although the trains being Driver Only Operated might have something to do with that.

It's only on this one occasion that I've encountered a rather shocking and uncharacteristic level of ineptitude - with one of the barrier staff repeatedly using her leg to close the automatic barriers followed by a "sorry if I kicked you" and another one saying "tell me your name" repeatedly after I told him three times and showed him photo ID, which he claimed he wasn't able to read. The lady also said that my disagreement with her word that the ticket wasn't valid was very unusual and asked me if I was autistic when I asked her if she was prepared to check using the Routeing Guide. I found her manner inappropriate and offensive. She didn't know where either station or the via point on my ticket was and used that as a reason to justify her guess that it wasn't valid. Very professional.

 

[jon0844]

I think people on here, and perhaps elsewhere, should club together and begin doing mystery shops of their own - complete with hidden camera and microphone. Then publish the results, albeit ghosting out faces if preferred, to perhaps prod ATOC into doing something.

It would also be something a lot of the media would be interested in, especially being able to see the NRCoC.

If I have problems and even mention the NRCoC, staff instantly seen to get defensive and think you're trying to be a smartarse, so it's as if the industry is actively trying to stop people seeing the terms - and those that ask are obviously up to no good.

 

[Daz28]

Perhaps at large stations they should put up a poster sized version. If they used small print like those widespread 'health and safety rules' you see everywhere they'd probably get the NRCofC on one sheet...

At Kings Cross platform 9 3/4 they have the entire text of Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone available as a poster. So I think the nRCoC should be quite possible to print and be readable.

 

[jon0844]

Worth trying, if only to see which poster had the most poorly written text...

I think it's mad that you can't see the terms and conditions before buying a ticket. Not that I'm suggesting everyone should ask to see them, or that everyone should be made to read them before buying a ticket, but anyone that asks should be allowed to see them and not have staff instantly take a dislike to you, which then leads them to talk to you like a piece of ****.

I do wonder if the industry actually allows it to happen because it will actually one day use this as a justification for getting rid of ticket offices, saying TVMs are better placed to deal with things (and display T&Cs). Arguably with the right software changes, they probably would be too.

I wonder if the staff members that are so angry with anyone asking for something other than a simple/common ticket realise they're gradually putting themselves (and their keener colleagues) out of a job?

 

[maniacmartin]

If anyone reading this thread works in a LU/LO office, I would very appreciative if you could stamp my copy of the NRCoC with a station stamp. Mine is printed on ATOC-letterheaded paper, but this still isn't good enough for London Overground.

 

[tsr]

If anyone reading this thread works in a LU/LO office, I would very appreciative if you could stamp my copy of the NRCoC with a station stamp. Mine is printed on ATOC-letterheaded paper, but this still isn't good enough for London Overground.

I might also greatly appreciate this at some imminent point in the future. Please PM me if a member will oblige to such a request (or indeed if someone who is reading would, that is equally good)!

 

[sheff1]

If I have problems and even mention the NRCoC, staff instantly seen to get defensive and think you're trying to be a smartarse, so it's as if the industry is actively trying to stop people seeing the terms - and those that ask are obviously up to no good.

... and yet staff on here regularly tell people that they should read the Conditions before they travel ....

... but if you do, you are, in some other staff's eyes a smartarse, troublemaker and/or up to no good.

 

[jon0844]

It's also rather worrying that if you were to read the T&Cs before you travelled, then had problems - showing a printed copy, or even the version on the web, can be instantly dismissed as potentially being faked. So what chance do you have?

How the hell are you supposed to use the NRCoC to protect you when you know you're right, or to be able to counter accusations of breaching the terms when staff are saying you're wrong but won't show you the condition you're supposed to have breached and expect you to just believe them?

I wonder how many people have successfully faked terms and conditions that suit them, then had the guts to show them to rail staff in order to get away with something? Probably not that many, especially as the people that you'd be trying to fool should have a reasonable knowledge of them anyway.

Seriously - I say again - it's time someone gets organised to go around various stations and actually tests how many places will show you the terms and conditions, and possibly even what happens if you present your own copy to someone. Film it, get facts and figures and then see what the media has to say.

 

[sheff1]

... especially as the people that you'd be trying to fool should have a reasonable knowledge of them anyway.

A bit radical .