Northern City Line

[A0]

I agree that the line into Moorgate needs a far better evening and weekend service.

Old Street especially could justify with more passengers using the station visit bars around the area. The Waterloo and Cityline is getting a much improved service after all these years so there should be some demand in the city for evening and weekend services if people are putting in some additional overtime at the office.

A freqeuency of 4-5tph (every 12-15 minutes) should be enough in the evenings and weekends unless there is any major events going on. Once traffic has built up perhaps a higher frequency could then be justified.

Running these trains into Moorgate should free up some capacity at kings cross

You'll struggle to increase the frequency to more than every 10 mins - there's precious little capacity north of Finsbury Park.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There isn't. It's twin tube tunnels with the only two-way crossover being at Moorgate itself, with one-way crossovers either side of Drayton Park. I don't think it's possible to terminate partway down the branch.

Well, when BR initially took over the line they did terminate at Old Street - because works were still taking place at Moorgate.

I assume they ran the trains onto Moorgate as ECS and reversed them there?

The real shame of this branch is it can't be extended to anywhere more useful. At least if it had an end destination of south of the river it would open up some journeys - but at weekends Moorgate's a pretty pointless destination.

The bigger shame, having said that, is the way the NLL has been reworked, so it's not viable to route the GN Inners onto the NLL to either Stratford or the ELL.

 

[anthony263]

There have been a few proposals over the years to link up the Northern City Line with
either the DLR bank branch of to the Waterloo & cityline. I am sure I heard a brief mention about the later on Video 125's DEV of the Waterloo & Cityline

Both proposals would require a very expensive and disruptive rebuild of Bank station

 

[causton]

The problem with extending with anything to do with the W&C line is the expense, I have heard many times it would be just as expensive to build a complete new line and then have some redundancy using the old one as well as the new one!

 

[Eagle]

Both proposals would require a very expensive and disruptive rebuild of Bank station

And an even more expensive and disruptive reboring of the DLR/tube tunnels to mainline size.

 

[Tetchytyke]

You'll struggle to increase the frequency to more than every 10 mins - there's precious little capacity north of Finsbury Park.

The old up freight line now has a platform at Ally Pally and work is well underway at Finsbury Park to move the semi-fasts that call there off the up fast on to the new platforms. Capacity should be less of an issue, although Harringay and Hornsey unfortunately won't see the benefits of it. It's already a cross-platform interchange at Finsbury Park and with the Victoria Line at H&I.

The peak frequency on the Northern City Line is currently every five minutes, with the "extras" usually terminating at Gordon Hill. There is the capacity.

I was reading on London Reconnections a while back that the Northern Line blocks the Northern City Line in at Moorgate, even leaving aside the works needed at Bank.

 

[Clip]

Perhaps not a popular point of view, but assuming there is a siding south of Highbury & Islington, that is where I would terminate a weekend southbound service.
Anyone wanting Essex Road or Old Street are well served by the frequent 271 while anyone wanting Moorgate itself could change from bus to Northern Line at Old Street if unwilling to do the 5-6 minutes walk from Finsbury Square where the 271 terminates.

Im flummoxed why you would terminate a service and force people to catch a bus rather than let it go right into Moorgate?

 

[Harlesden]

Um, why do many services on NR terminate at intermediate points rather than continue to the end of the line? Because there isn't the demand to run the service the full length of the line. I've seen Moorgate (the street) on a Sunday. Almost deserted in comparison to weekdays.

 

[Eagle]

But as has been pointed out, it's impossible to terminate a train there anyway. Trains must go all the way to Moorgate.

 

[swt_passenger]

There have been a few proposals over the years to link up the Northern City Line with either the DLR bank branch of to the Waterloo & cityline.

Only ever proposed by enthusiasts I suspect. I very much doubt anyone will ever find a serious proposal written up by a public authority such as TfL, LU, or NR.

 

[Bald Rick]

Im flummoxed why you would terminate a service and force people to catch a bus rather than let it go right into Moorgate?

Perhaps if the escalators from the platforms hadn't been finished?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Um, why do many services on NR terminate at intermediate points rather than continue to the end of the line? Because there isn't the demand to run the service the full length of the line. I've seen Moorgate (the street) on a Sunday. Almost deserted in comparison to weekdays.

The whole of the city is dead on a weekend, the shops are mostly closed. Around Liverpool Street the only thing open is the station, but you wouldn't advocate terminating everything at Stratford.

In any case, the up tunnel and the down tunnel are not next to each other, therefore it is not possible to terminate trains at Highbury and Islington.

 

[A-driver]

I don't think the NCL would open at weekends for the benefit if it's destinations, more for connections. Weekday or weekend, highbury now has a very useful connection via the ELL adding a third north/south rail link which will take pressure off thameslink and the tube.

Plus Moorgate is walking distance from London bridge or 2 stops in the northern line plus Moorgate has useful connections on the circle lines. This would ease congestion on the tube and kings cross tube station.

As much as I don't like the thought of driving to Moorgate at weekends I can see huge benefits and so know it will increase the number of drivers needed from a selfish point of view.

 

[D365]

I don't think the NCL would open at weekends for the benefit if it's destinations, more for connections. Weekday or weekend, highbury now has a very useful connection via the ELL adding a third north/south rail link which will take pressure off thameslink and the tube.

Doesn't the Victoria line, non-stop between Finsbury Park and H&I, provide enough capacity during the weekend?

Would there be much point in installing a crossover north or south of H&I [on NCL], or would that be too much hassle for too little benefit?

 

[Eagle]

You'd need a tunnel boring machine to add a crossover there.

 

[A-driver]

Doesn't the Victoria line, non-stop between Finsbury Park and H&I, provide enough capacity during the weekend?

Would there be much point in installing a crossover north or south of H&I [on NCL], or would that be too much hassle for too little benefit?

As you say, the Vic line links Finsbury park to highbury so why bother terminating trains there? Moorgate has more connections with the tube.

 

[D365]

I still want to see a NCL-W&C link, no matter how much of a poor idea it's supposed to be :P

 

[nicobobinus]

The whole of the city is dead on a weekend, the shops are mostly closed. Around Liverpool Street the only thing open is the station, but you wouldn't advocate terminating everything at Stratford.

In any case, the up tunnel and the down tunnel are not next to each other, therefore it is not possible to terminate trains at Highbury and Islington.

While I'd agree that most of the City is a ghost town outside of office hours, in the last few years the area around Liverpool Street has become absolutely hectic at weekends - Spitalfields Market, Columbia Road, Petticoat Lane, Brick Lane and Shoreditch all do a roaring leisure trade (especially on Sundays) and Liverpool Street is the main railhead for them. For that reason Sunday is also the only day the City of London bothers to open up the Bishopsgate public loos outside the station!

The area around Old Street has undergone a similar sort of change in recent years - in particular late evening services on Fri/Sats on the Bank branch of the Northern Line are akin to those at rush hour, with the difference that half of the passengers are hammered. Most of those passengers are feeding in from points north to the Elephant and Old Street (for Shoreditch) for nights out. The last southbound train is often a complete crush load. If the Northern City started an evening & weekend service tomorrow I reckon usage would pick up rapidly.

 

[tractakid]

Woah, a link from Newcastle?! Yes, a poor idea. The ECML does a good job at getting people from that approximate area to the other approximate area.

I think the whole purpose of the line is for connections. It's certainly a nice shortcut from Moorgate to Highbury and Islington that isn't on the tube map.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'd agree, I think evening and Saturday trains (at least) need to go down to Moorgate. Given the issues around overcrowding at Finsbury Park, and given the only access between NR and tube there is either down a spiral staircase or a long walk out of the station and back in, moving more trains to H&I with the cross-platform tube interchange can only be a good thing.

 

[Aictos]

These were questions asked of the senior management from FCC at a recent Meet the Directors webchat.....

Question number 50

From Dave Holladay

Q
It strikes me that with 8 trains/hour between Canonbury and Highbury & Islington there is vast overcapacity on NLL which could be directed to provide some relief at Finsbury Park, and possibly to Bowes Park by using existing connections via Canonbury Tunnel (reversing in Bowes Park reversing siding or via Hornsey flyover) running perhaps 2 trains/hour this way from Stratford and sending ELL services vice NLL to fill spaces left to Richmond/Clapham.

This would offer a contingency service for when Moorgate branch goes down (connections to Shoreditch for City) and offer traincrew available to provide additional capacity for football matches at Emirates.

A
Thank you for your observations.

Decisions of this sort would be taken by the DfT, hopefully in consultatino with the London Mayor, and therefore lie outside FCC's remit.

Question number 63

From Dave Holladay

Q
A long term, blue sky one this. It is barely 1Km between Moorgate and Cannon Street, and with both stations being terminii the capacity for trains running in & out is limited by the time taken to change direction, and the need to cross the path of incoming trains with outgoing ones.

Thameslink eliminated the issues of trains terminating at Moorgate and Holborn Viaduct and now permits a very intensive cross-London service. Connecting between Moorgate and Cannon Street could deliver a further cross-city route, potentially for Metro service trains linking between the Deptford Loop and Hertfordshire Inner suburban services (possibly looping through restored links (Hatfield-Bayford?) to give a looping service at either end.

Who might drive this detail? would it reduce the number of trains required to operate a combined service?

A
A good thought. After Thameslink and Crossrail the attention seems to be on Crossrail II. This is driven through the Mayor's office and this may be a good place to put forward your ideas.

 

[tbtc]

It is barely 1Km between Moorgate and Cannon Street, and with both stations being terminii the capacity for trains running in & out is limited by the time taken to change direction, and the need to cross the path of incoming trains with outgoing ones

Its half a mile, according to Google Maps, its just a shame that it'd mean building a new line through one of the busiest half miles of property in Europe.

Can't see it happening, but nice idea.

 

[Eagle]

Its half a mile, according to Google Maps...

But what is the vertical distance between the two?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Okay I've done a bit of Googling and the vertical distance between the two stations is about 25 metres. A railway line between the two would have a mean gradient of 1 in 32. That is steeper than the Lickey Incline.

So in short, no it is not remotely possible.

 

[philjo]

I think the point had been raised on a previous thread also that Cannon St services are 10/12 coaches which would not be compatible with the current limit of 6 coaches on the FCC services (without a lot of money spending on allowing longer platforms for Drayton Park to moorgate section) plus the GN inner stations would need longer platforms.

I think it would be better to build a new tunnel from Moorgate with stations at Blackfriars (or City Thameslink & Temple) then Waterloo -either terminate there or extend (in tunnel/new line) maybe to Vauxhall & Clapham Junction?

Extending to Waterloo would provide a parallel route to W&C line and give connections to/from Thameslink at Blackfriars or City Thameslink. Adding Vauxhall would give a parallel route to the Victoria line between Vauxhall & highbury/finsbury Park.
Or alternatively it could do a one-way clockwise loop via Blackfriars, Waterloo etc (as is the set up in Liverpool ) so the trains don't actually terminate in London but go round the loop and back out again to the GN

 

[Eagle]

I think it would be better to build a new tunnel from Moorgate with stations at Blackfriars (or City Thameslink & Temple) then Waterloo -either terminate there or extend (in tunnel/new line) maybe to Vauxhall & Clapham Junction?

Extending to Waterloo would provide a parallel route to W&C line and give connections to/from Thameslink at Blackfriars or City Thameslink. Adding Vauxhall would give a parallel route to the Victoria line between Vauxhall & highbury/finsbury Park.

Unlikely, being as that would be parallel to Crossrail 2.

 

[jon0844]

I'm pretty sure everyone changes at Finsbury Park for the Victoria line anyway

Loads of people change at Highbury & Islington because of the simple and quick change. In the peak, you'll see loads of people staying on (fortunately not all, as some people will either need the Piccadilly Line or will actually be exiting at Finsbury Park) and changing there - even though it will arguably take longer, given the need to stop and change power at Drayton Park.

I expect another reason is the ease at which some people without tickets could then get onto the underground, now that FPK is gated. And that's why there are often ticket checks with sufficient staff numbers to cover every corridor!

Anyway, services for late night and weekends are now part of the new franchise - which is good as a lot of these things will only ever happen if they're made as a requirement, not just something that would be nice to do.

While Morgate won't necessarily become a destination at weekends the line will certainly be well used. Old Street is busy thanks to its proximty to Shoreditch and a growing number of bars in the area. Meanwhile Essex Road has become an overspill of Islington high street thanks to its restaurants, bars and flats. Once word gets out these stations are open I can see high numbers of passengers using them.

Moorgate is useful for a pretty short walk to Liverpool Street. In fact, it's a shame that it isn't highlighted on route maps as an interchange, but perhaps it's just that little bit too far away?

Old Street is a very busy station, Highbury & Islington a very good interchange and I guess Essex Road increasing in popularity is not surprising either.

So that leaves Drayton Park, which I'd have said could stay closed - but as it's the place to change power, it makes no sense to have this closed.

I understand that Drayton Park is one of many sticking points with Islington Council.

Arsenal want to increase the capacity of Ashburton Grove but one of the reasons they were limited to 60,000 in the first place was the limit placed on local stations.

Every time I go to Drayton Park (well through it, so I've never really got out to look properly) I wonder if you could simply put another platform for northbound trains (exiting the tunnel) and maybe then put up a fence to stop anyone from falling down. Obviously during any football game, you'd then need crowd control measures in place too.

Given its location to the ground, it really should be upgraded to become usable (and safe) during football matches - and as trains can go into the tunnel a short distance and reverse, it would also be possible to start services from there as 'queue busters'.

But I expect nothing will change for the sake of a game or two a week, and I suppose there's always the issue of what happens to those who try and board what will have become a totally full train by Finsbury Park!

 

[philjo]

Arsenal could be asked to contribute towards upgrading Drayton Park station with specifc links to the stadium for match days. THoses trains need not stop at finsbury Park to help alleviate the crowds - e.g. Iinner suburbans from Drayton Park, passengers wanting Cambridge/Peterborough trains should walk to Finsbury Park.

An alternative suggested route for the Moorgate extension: a clockwise loop moorgate-Fenchurch street/Tower Gateway (single combined station)-London Bridge - Cannon street (or Blackfriars) - Moorgate
This would give connections onto DLR at Tower Gateway and south London/Kent/Thameslink network at London Bridge & access to south bank area. Also relieves the Northern line Old Street-London Bridge section (plus to New Barnet)
Or send the line (2 way) via Fenchurch Street to somewhere like Greenwich.

 

[swt_passenger]

It is probably far better to disperse the crowds directly from Finsbury Park and Arsenal underground stations. There is not really enough room for the necessary queuing and marshalling outside Drayton Park anyway.

As I recall Arsenal did allocate a sum of money towards possible improvements to Drayton Park, but the railway side decided there were no practical improvements that could be done that would allow for safe control of expected passenger numbers on the platforms.

With the extra platforms and lengthening taking place at Finsbury Park now it probably makes even more sense to walk the crowds up there.

 

[Bald Rick]

But what is the vertical distance between the two?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Okay I've done a bit of Googling and the vertical distance between the two stations is about 25 metres. A railway line between the two would have a mean gradient of 1 in 32. That is steeper than the Lickey Incline.

So in short, no it is not remotely possible.

There is the small matter of all the other tunnels in the area. The NCL sits above the northern line at Moorgate, and not much below the Met. Below the northern line is Crossrail. It can't carry on at the current level from Moorgate as the BoE vaults are in the way. So any continuation would actually have to diverge from the current tunnels near Old St, swing out and then down to get under the northern line, then further down to get under Crossrail. By which time it will be, I guess, 50metres+ below ground. Even at a 1:30 gradient it wouldn't be back above ground south of the river until London Bridge, and that's assuming you could miss the jubilee line and Shard foundations amongst other things.

So, no chance.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Essex Road increasing in popularity is not surprising either.

So that leaves Drayton Park, which I'd have said could stay closed - but as it's the place to change power, it makes no sense to have this closed.

It's also above ground so doesn't have the same staffing requirements (IIRC) so you wouldn't save much by keeping it shut.

Essex Road would be the one to keep closed if costs were an issue, but it is becoming increasingly popular as Islington Upper Street grows as a destination.