Northern City Line

[90sWereBetter]

Apologies if this query has appeared numerous times before, but I'm wondering why the Northern City Line doesn't run at weekends? Is it because there is little demand for travel directly into the City at weekends, or is there extra capacity at Kings Cross which means there's little point in using Moorgate as the terminus?

It is slightly annoying as I want to cover the branch (and get myself a 313 journey in the process), but I can't get down to the capital during the week, university/studying and all that.

 

[Searle]

I think it's precisely that, there's no demand into Moorgate at the weekends, especially when you can just get the tube instead from King's Cross.

If it's any consolation, you're not missing out on much

 

[gordonthemoron]

lot of things are shut at weekend in City

 

[tractakid]

I think I read they were introducing weekend/later evening travel in December 2015 or something recently?

 

[A-driver]

I think I read they were introducing weekend/later evening travel in December 2015 or something recently?

The new franchise states that they should be running moorgate trains later evening and on sat/sun as well.

 

[bicbasher]

Opening the Northern City line will give passengers the option to change at Highbury & Islington for the Victoria line which is cross platform instead of Kings Cross into town.

 

[Eagle]

Strictly speaking, the reason there are no services is that there are no station staff at those times (and you need staff there for safety reasons because it's a deep-level line).

But yes, the reason there are no staff at weekends is less demand.

 

[Searle]

Opening the Northern City line will give passengers the option to change at Highbury & Islington for the Victoria line which is cross platform instead of Kings Cross into town.

I'm pretty sure everyone changes at Finsbury Park for the Victoria line anyway

 

[A-driver]

Strictly speaking, the reason there are no services is that there are no station staff at those times (and you need staff there for safety reasons because it's a deep-level line).

But yes, the reason there are no staff at weekends is less demand.

Well the other way round actually. There are no staff as there are no trains running apart from the daily FEP run on sat and sun. They don't run the service as it's not a requirement. When the line opened they only saw it as a mom- fri 9-5 style commuter line.

 

[A-driver]

I'm pretty sure everyone changes at Finsbury Park for the Victoria line anyway

It's a same platform interchange at highbury so far easier plus there is a lot of traffic onto the LO lines there.

Plus at present most people are using highbury as the interchange at Finsbury is closed until March. At present anyone switching from FCC to LU has to exit the station and re-enter the tube station making a longer connection.

 

[Electrostar]

While Morgate won't necessarily become a destination at weekends the line will certainly be well used. Old Street is busy thanks to its proximty to Shoreditch and a growing number of bars in the area. Meanwhile Essex Road has become an overspill of Islington high street thanks to its restaurants, bars and flats. Once word gets out these stations are open I can see high numbers of passengers using them.

 

[High Dyke]

Blimey... I didn't realise it had changed...used to catch the train from Drayton Park after watching Arsenal on a Saturday afternoon. Then again that was nearly 30 years ago.

 

[Mojo]

Blimey... I didn't realise it had changed...used to catch the train from Drayton Park after watching Arsenal on a Saturday afternoon. Then again that was nearly 30 years ago.

I bet even when the line reopens on Saturdays they will probably close Drayton Park due to fears of overcrowding.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I bet even when the line reopens on Saturdays they will probably close Drayton Park due to fears of overcrowding.

I was told by an Arsenal fan ages ago that whenever anything is on at the Emirates Stadium during operational hours of Drayton Park the station is closed (granted, that's not too often!). I'm not sure where he obtained that information from but it could well have been from something like publicity and literature when the stadium opened in 2006 (I think it was).

 

[bicbasher]

Since the increase of LO services at Highbury & Islington, it's rather archaic for the Northern City line to close as the station is a useful interchange now that it's possible to travel from Hertfordshire to south London with just one change of train.

Bar Moorgate itself, the other stations on the line have potential for increased passenger use during evenings and weekends. I remember going to Old Street to meet a friend who lived in Shoreditch on a Saturday night and the station and surrounding bars were very busy.

 

[anthony263]

I agree that the line into Moorgate needs a far better evening and weekend service.

Old Street especially could justify with more passengers using the station visit bars around the area. The Waterloo and Cityline is getting a much improved service after all these years so there should be some demand in the city for evening and weekend services if people are putting in some additional overtime at the office.

A freqeuency of 4-5tph (every 12-15 minutes) should be enough in the evenings and weekends unless there is any major events going on. Once traffic has built up perhaps a higher frequency could then be justified.

Running these trains into Moorgate should free up some capacity at kings cross

 

[W230]

I was told by an Arsenal fan ages ago that whenever anything is on at the Emirates Stadium during operational hours of Drayton Park the station is closed (granted, that's not too often!). I'm not sure where he obtained that information from but it could well have been from something like publicity and literature when the stadium opened in 2006 (I think it was).

I understand that Drayton Park is one of many sticking points with Islington Council.

Arsenal want to increase the capacity of Ashburton Grove but one of the reasons they were limited to 60,000 in the first place was the limit placed on local stations.

 

[CyrusWuff]

One thing that TPTB seem to have forgotten when it comes to running into Moorgate all week is those annoying things called passengers.

Under the current timetable, anyone travelling from GN Inner stations at the weekend to catch long distance trains from Kings Cross or St Pancras can get a direct train to Kings Cross and be on their way.

With the change to running into Moorgate at weekends, that means making an additional change at Finsbury Park, possibly meaning a change of platform as well, and increased journey times.

And for those suggesting getting the Victoria Line from Highbury, where it's a cross-platform change, there are a not insignificant number of people who don't wish to use the tube for various reasons, which is why they get the train in the first place instead of the Piccadilly or Northern Lines.

 

[A-driver]

One thing that TPTB seem to have forgotten when it comes to running into Moorgate all week is those annoying things called passengers.

Under the current timetable, anyone travelling from GN Inner stations at the weekend to catch long distance trains from Kings Cross or St Pancras can get a direct train to Kings Cross and be on their way.

With the change to running into Moorgate at weekends, that means making an additional change at Finsbury Park, possibly meaning a change of platform as well, and increased journey times.

And for those suggesting getting the Victoria Line from Highbury, where it's a cross-platform change, there are a not insignificant number of people who don't wish to use the tube for various reasons, which is why they get the train in the first place instead of the Piccadilly or Northern Lines.

Afraid I don't agree with you there. Mon-fri anyone wanting to get to kings x from Hertford/Barnet will have to change at Finsbury park anyway. Most people arnt travelling to kings x itself so highbury, Moorgate or Finsbury park are just as useful for tube connections.

I really don't think there is a particularly high number if people who use inners to get to kings x in order to connect to other trains and it's no different to catching a train into any London station and having to get to another station to catch a longer distance train.

Whilst if prefer not to be driving into Moorgate on weekends I can definitely see the benefit in running services at weekends.

 

[Harlesden]

Perhaps not a popular point of view, but assuming there is a siding south of Highbury & Islington, that is where I would terminate a weekend southbound service.
Anyone wanting Essex Road or Old Street are well served by the frequent 271 while anyone wanting Moorgate itself could change from bus to Northern Line at Old Street if unwilling to do the 5-6 minutes walk from Finsbury Square where the 271 terminates.

 

[Eagle]

assuming there is a siding south of Highbury & Islington

There isn't. It's twin tube tunnels with the only two-way crossover being at Moorgate itself, with one-way crossovers either side of Drayton Park. I don't think it's possible to terminate partway down the branch.

 

[A-driver]

There isn't. It's twin tube tunnels with the only two-way crossover being at Moorgate itself, with one-way crossovers either side of Drayton Park. I don't think it's possible to terminate partway down the branch.

It isn't possible to turn a train around once in the tunnel unless an emergancy.

 

[Searle]

There isn't. It's twin tube tunnels with the only two-way crossover being at Moorgate itself, with one-way crossovers either side of Drayton Park. I don't think it's possible to terminate partway down the branch.

You can at Drayton Park, where many trains that are Cancelled at Finsbury Park are turned around. When you go further than Drayton Park then you have to go all the way to Moorgate

 

[A-driver]

You can at Drayton Park, where many trains that are Cancelled at Finsbury Park are turned around. When you go further than Drayton Park then you have to go all the way to Moorgate

He said that in the passage you quoted! You can turn both a DC and AC unit round at Drayton park so often in the peaks a unit which can't raise the pan will end up doing Drayton-moorgate until after the peak. We also often turn 317s round at Drayton park for football trains etc.

 

[Searle]

He said that in the passage you quoted! You can turn both a DC and AC unit round at Drayton park so often in the peaks a unit which can't raise the pan will end up doing Drayton-moorgate until after the peak. We also often turn 317s round at Drayton park for football trains etc.

Oh yeah, I should start reading more

 

[Tomnick]

What'd be the point (no pun intended) of turning back at H&I anyway? Once you're on the branch, you might as well keep going. Anyway, as above, the only intermediate turnback is at Drayton Park, either (if I'm not mistaken) starting back from a dolly at the north end of the Up platform or shunting via the crossover to the south, neither particularly convenient for a frequent service.

 

[Eagle]

Out of interest how did trains turn back from the south, when Drayton Park was the northern terminus of the line in the 1960s and 70s?

 

[A-driver]

Out of interest how did trains turn back from the south, when Drayton Park was the northern terminus of the line in the 1960s and 70s?

At a guess the same as moorgate-a double crossover. There is more than enough space in the double bore tunnel for more crossovers.

 

[tbtc]

IIRC London Buses used to have a number of routes that didn't run into "the city" at the weekend ten years ago - these were gradually revised so that the weekend route matched the weekday one.

The ELL certainly seems busy enough at the weekends nowadays.

 

[bicbasher]

I imagine a London Overground branded Northern City line would certainly increase patronage at Essex Road, although as this line is staying with TSGN, it'll need promoting to get passengers aware of the extended opening hours.

I used to commute to that station in 2009/10 (pre ELL) so would use it between there and Moorgate and occasionally Highbury & Islington. Sometimes I'd be the only person on the southbound platform outside the peaks, although northbound was slightly busier.