What is wrong with Northern Rail?

[yorksrob]

The trains are poor quality because of their own mismanagement of the stock.

A 142 will always be a 142, with plenty of bouncy bouncy action, freezing cold draughts and heaters that will burn the hairs on your leg without warming anything else, sure. But look at what (the then) Valley Lines did with their 142s and 143s, compare it to the ex-Merseyrail 142s, and weep.

Similarly, when some of Northern's 156s were transferred to EMT, the latter stuck noticed up apologising for the poor quality of the trains. Essentially Northern Spirit refurbished them in about 1998 and Northern have done nothing with them since.

Given Northern are making profits of more than £20m a year, I don't think we can really argue that they're this poor impoverished operator doing what they can.

That is a fair point. Northern have been a lot better of late in this respect but its been a long time coming. Also, some units on other TOC‘s have had very useful extras such as tables fitted, which would be better when a 150, for example,turns up on a longish route.

 

[Class83]

The main issue I find with Northern is the rolling stock, both in terms of quality and quantity. The pacers are just rubbish, they're an example of poor quality cost cutting, they should never have been built and the sooner they're scrapped the better. 150s are fine on short routes such as stoppers from Wigan to Manchester or Liverpool, but need to be 4 or 6 car in the peaks. What northern failed to do is get an order for 170s put in about 10-15 years ago when Scotrail got theirs.

The staff are generally helpful and making the best of a bad lot (the G4S knuckledraggers at Man Pic excluded) I wouldn't say rubbish is particularly worse than other TOCs, some of the units were/are a bit run down, though they seem to be replacing the seat covers at least. Guards should perhaps be 'trained' in tidying up litter if they've got turnarounds that don't double as their break. Presumably most northern units end up in Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield or Newcastle once an hour or so where the actual cleaners could sort them out, are there sufficient cleaners at these locations to do so?

 

[Manchester77]

Don't actually think northern was in existence when scotrail ordered their turbostars...

 

[thenorthern]

Class 142 units aren't that bad for the services they operate, they have plenty of seats because of their 3+2 seating plan plus they were very cheap to build.

Also if it wasn't for pacers many branch lines would have closed by now.

 

[yorksrob]

Class 142 units aren't that bad for the services they operate, they have plenty of seats because of their 3+2 seating plan plus they were very cheap to build.

Also if it wasn't for pacers many branch lines would have closed by now.

The 3+2 seating plan makes them a lot worse to travel on than the 144's (since the 144's were refurbed properly), They weren't even that cheap by the time they'd sorted out the problems they'd started off with and any saved branch lines would have done just as well with a 144.

 

[Darandio]

The 3+2 seating plan makes them a lot worse to travel on than the 144's (since the 144's were refurbed properly), They weren't even that cheap by the time they'd sorted out the problems they'd started off with and any saved branch lines would have done just as well with a 144.

I'd agree that the 3+2 seating plan isn't great, but quite a lot of Class 142's are 2+2 anyway, and undergoing a half decent refurb.

 

[thenorthern]

I was on a Northern Pacer today from Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield and I noticed that they had an advert that that they are going to refurbish their Class 142s so they may change it to 2+2 seating.

On the subject of Pacers even if Northern Rail did get lets say 30 cascaded sprinters I would see no reason to withdraw any Pacers as they still work very well for the services they operate.

 

[yorksrob]

I'd agree that the 3+2 seating plan isn't great, but quite a lot of Class 142's are 2+2 anyway, and undergoing a half decent refurb.

Well, that's true. I still find the 144 a pleasanter environment.
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On the subject of Pacers even if Northern Rail did get lets say 30 cascaded sprinters I would see no reason to withdraw any Pacers as they still work very well for the services they operate.

I would only agree with that in so far as we need to be dealing with passenger growth and overcrowding before we start scrapping things.

 

[Class 92]

So what do passengers want then? More trains but not so good quality or quality trains but not very many of them?

 

[thenorthern]

Well, that's true. I still find the 144 a pleasanter environment.

I would agree and they seem more modern than the 142s and more comfortable, I would say the only thing bad about 144s is when they enter Carnforth round the tight curve and you can hear the wheel rubbing.

I would only agree with that in so far as we need to be dealing with passenger growth and overcrowding before we start scrapping things.

For many services I find the 144s better than their replacements as many of the 144s are 3 coaches and the sprinters that replace them are normally only 1 or 2.

 

[yorksrob]

For many services I find the 144s better than their replacements as many of the 144s are 3 coaches and the sprinters that replace them are normally only 1 or 2.

My morning commute is usually a 3 car 144. On the odd occasions when a 158 turns up, it seems to absorb the same number of seated passengers quite easily. A 150 less so, particularly as some of them have 3+2 airline seating which is a bugbear of mine.

 

[Bevan Price]

Class 142 units aren't that bad for the services they operate, they have plenty of seats because of their 3+2 seating plan plus they were very cheap to build.

Also if it wasn't for pacers many branch lines would have closed by now.

A common myth. The majority of Pacers have always been used on suburban services that were never in danger of closure. The Cornish branches survived after the initial batch of WR Pacers was moved elesewhere.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Class 142 units aren't that bad for the services they operate, they have plenty of seats because of their 3+2 seating plan plus they were very cheap to build.

Also if it wasn't for pacers many branch lines would have closed by now.

A class of trains that should never have been built!
A load of Mk 1's should have been refurbished instead.
Bouncing along at 70mph - bit like a roller coaster, bit unsettling as 142's haven't got up-stop wheels.
My trip to York last week was very good. Staff courteous, helpful and kept the passengers informed of a 2 minute delay.
142 unit on the South Line was refurbished to a good standard, and I don't mind the 3+2 seating.

 

[HSTEd]

A common myth. The majority of Pacers have always been used on suburban services that were never in danger of closure. The Cornish branches survived after the initial batch of WR Pacers was moved elesewhere.

Yes, but they still reduced the total amount of money required for stock procurement. Without them the railway could have bought less stock which means that there would have been nothing to replace the Mark 1s, forcing line closure.

This is one of those BR marginal cost things. (A branchline can pay for a Pacer but not a Sprinter, so if the marginal cost of having the line is buying a Pacer it works, if it is a Sprinter it doesn't - it doesn't matter where they actually operate).

 

[northwichcat]

I'd agree that the 3+2 seating plan isn't great, but quite a lot of Class 142's are 2+2 anyway, and undergoing a half decent refurb.

The problem with 2+2 seating on 142s is how low the seating capacity is compared to how high the loadings are. If Northern fit the rest of the 142s and 150s with 2+2 seating then they'll need to have longer trains. When Northern loaned an ATW 150 with 2+2 seating it showed how highly loaded Northern's 2 car formations can be compared to other operators.

 

[ainsworth74]

Though the 2+3 Pacers I've been on the only way you'd get five adults sitting abreast is to have at least two of them sitting on the others laps...

 

[northwichcat]

Though the 2+3 Pacers I've been on the only way you'd get five adults sitting abreast is to have at least two of them sitting on the others laps...

It sounds like you've not had the experience of Northern sending a single 142 for a service with a loading of up to around 250 passengers. In cases like that the conductor won't let the train depart until people do take up the middle seats and standing passengers move right down the train, otherwise there's 100+ unable to travel.

On the peak time Manchester services I've been on there's been rarely more than 5 of '3 seaters' with just 2 people on. Although, the people sat in the aisle seats are usually perched on the end of the seats partly obstructing the aisles.

 

[sprinterguy]

I was on a Northern Pacer today from Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield and I noticed that they had an advert that that they are going to refurbish their Class 142s so they may change it to 2+2 seating.

I believe that is referring to the current ongoing refresh that is seeing the trains given a thorough clean and fitted with new seat covers. There has been no indication that Northern have any intention giving the Pacers a proper ATW-style refurb and changing the seating.
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Don't actually think northern was in existence when scotrail ordered their turbostars...

Indeed! Though at the time Bombardier were touting the "Turbostar Traveller" towards Northern Spirit and First North Western for Pacer replacement, which was intended as a "Turbostar lite" with gearing for better acceleration and a lighter weight, which I suppose we have eventually got in the form of the class 172.

 

[thenorthern]

Looking at Pacer numbers every 142, 143, 144 ever built is still in service apart from 4 that have been written off. Considering that they were only designed to run for 20 years this is a very good achievement.

Looking at Northern's Fleet 1/3 are Pacers and I think many passengers would rather have a pacer train than no train at all.

 

[ffm]

This is not a very good achievement. It is a disgrace. Yes we would rather a Pacer than no train at all, but that is the point isn't it? Better than nothing. The best that can be said of a Pacer, a truly awful experience and one that should be prevented from continuing. Every time I hear a whine about 377s, 450s, or any other South Eastern commuter train, I despair. These people should be made to ride on a Pacer for 30 minutes, as should every DoT MP and civil servant.

 

[northwichcat]

Looking at Pacer numbers every 142, 143, 144 ever built is still in service apart from 4 that have been written off. Considering that they were only designed to run for 20 years this is a very good achievement.

The 4 that were written off will have been used as spare parts donors. Sometimes when no units have been written off some of the poorest performing units get withdrawn to become spare parts donors for older trains.

And Northern actually did withdraw 12 of the most unreliable class 142 units when they got cascaded 158s and a further 5 were withdrawn were withdrawn when the Oldham Loop closed but with DfT not ordering any new DMUs for additional capacity the withdrawn 142s got put back in to service. Something that didn't happen with the 508s following on from an over order of 3rd rail EMUs which resulted in some 450s being converted to AC class 350/1s.

 

[anti-pacer]

This is not a very good achievement. It is a disgrace. Yes we would rather a Pacer than no train at all, but that is the point isn't it? Better than nothing. The best that can be said of a Pacer, a truly awful experience and one that should be prevented from continuing. Every time I hear a whine about 377s, 450s, or any other South Eastern commuter train, I despair. These people should be made to ride on a Pacer for 30 minutes, as should every DoT MP and civil servant.

Agreed!

 

[455driver]

And Northern actually did withdraw 12 of the most unreliable class 142 units when they got cascaded 158s and a further 5 were withdrawn were withdrawn when the Oldham Loop closed but with DfT not ordering any new DMUs for additional capacity the withdrawn 142s got put back into service. Something that didn't happen with the 508s following on from an over order of 3rd rail EMUs which resulted in some 450s being converted to AC class 350/1s.

Northern didnt withdraw any Pacers, it was the DaFT that removed them as it was a swap, the 5 (Oldham ones) that should have been removed only got left with Northern because a PTE offered to pay the leasing charges on Northerns behalf otherwise they would have been leased to somebody else.

As for leasing companies touting stock to Franchisees, why? The trains used in the franchise are nothing to do with the franchisee and everything to do with DaFT, the franchisee can express a preference but the buck stops with DaFT.

With reference to Northern, Pacers are liked by the DaFT because the leasing charges are much cheaper than any other unit and as DaFT are subsidising Northern to the hilt they call the shots even more than they normally do.

 

[anti-pacer]

With reference to Northern, Pacers are liked by the DaFT because the leasing charges are much cheaper than any other unit and as DaFT are subsidising Northern to the hilt they call the shots even more than they normally do.

Just out of interest, why do Northern NEED subsidising so heavily?

The trains always seem well used and they have the support of 5 PTE's, with their services covering major conurbations.

 

[northwichcat]

Northern didnt withdraw any Pacers, it was the DaFT that removed them as it was a swap, the 5 (Oldham ones) that should have been removed only got left with Northern because a PTE offered to pay the leasing charges on Northerns behalf otherwise they would have been leased to somebody else.

7 of them sat in Blackpool sidings not used in passenger service for months. 5 of them temporarily got back in to use to strengthen Mid-Cheshire services (under GMPTE subsidy) when there were engineering works which closed the Metrolink line between Altrincham and Manchester.

If they are not being used in passenger services they are effectively withdrawn.

When the Oldham Loop closed many passengers transferred to Calder Vale service instead of the replacement buses so GMPTE arranged for funding for the 5 Pacers to be used to strengthen Calder Vale services until the Metrolink line to Oldham opened. DfT have since decided that due to increased passenger numbers that Northern do need to retain those 5 Pacers as additional capacity.

With reference to Northern, Pacers are liked by the DaFT because the leasing charges are much cheaper than any other unit and as DaFT are subsidising Northern to the hilt they call the shots even more than they normally do.

As I've said before some of the services that Northern could put on 3 car 172 on, if they had any, get a pair of 142s. The Southport line is a good example. Most Southport-Airport services were 2 car Sprinters but they were too small so more services are now 4 car Pacers instead. 3 car Sprinters isn't an option due to 153s being banned from Wigan Wallgate and Northern having very few 3 car Sprinters.
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Just out of interest, why do Northern NEED subsidising so heavily?

The trains always seem well used and they have the support of 5 PTE's, with their services covering major conurbations.

Where do you think the PTEs get money from? Council tax rates in Leeds are among the lowest in the country and yet the local train fares are also the lowest in the country so it can't just be that they are subsided by council tax because that doesn't add up.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just out of interest, why do Northern NEED subsidising so heavily?
The trains always seem well used and they have the support of 5 PTE's, with their services covering major conurbations.

Revenue is relatively low (low PTE fares, no legions of medium distance commuters with season tickets, negligible premium fares).
Unit costs are high (2/4-car trains don't match 4/8/12 around London).
Maintenance costs are high with too many varieties of old DMUs of low availability.
Utilisation is pretty poor (crowding is only on the last 5-10 miles, not the 30-50 miles for London).
Northern are also trying to serve (at least) 5 markets, not just the one like the NSE TOCs.
That's very difficult to optimise.
Northern has a tough job.

 

[northwichcat]

Utilisation is pretty poor (crowding is only on the last 5-10 miles, not the 30-50 miles for London).

I look forward to seeing overcrowding only being on the last 5-10 miles for Northern services. There definitely are some Northern services which have standing for 30 miles and unlike London area services the next service isn't along in 5-15 minutes but in 20-60 minutes.

 

[Class 92]

3 car Sprinters isn't an option due to 153s being banned from Wigan Wallgate.

Why are they banned from Wigan Wallgate?

 

[northwichcat]

Why are they banned from Wigan Wallgate?

They are too wide for the tight curves so the 153s would arrive at Wigan Wallgate damaged if they were sent that way.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

I remember advising a Manchester Airport-bound passenger to use the Saturdays-only Sheffield service from Cleethorpes a couple of years ago. From the reaction of the Cleethorpes station staff you'd have thought I'd been divulging state secrets on Wikileaks!

Sadly this seems to be an ongoing problem, some staff from a different TOC dont want to advertise that another TOC could get them to their destination.

We sadly had this problem at Sheffield Midland with EMT staff not advising customers that their was a Northern Rail service to Cleethorpes