Gross overcrowding on the 23:05 Waterloo to Poole service

[SF-02]

OK, lets go back to 1978. Bob Dylan at Blackbushe Airfield (who else was there? ). Fleet station on the Waterloo main line a couple of miles walk away. About 1/4 million attended. Finished after midnight.

Despised old British Rail however had it all together. Empty 12EPB queued up at almost every signal on the up local from Fleet back to Basingstoke, even at 1-2 am. Every division of the old SR had contributed. Huge queue management at Fleet station. Everyone was sold tickets.

This reminds me of what I see on the continent on a regular basis. Going to city festivals and big music events ending late into the night, emerging and seeing many trams/trains queued up in a very slick operation. Everyone queuing has to show staff a ticket to get through the train queue, if you don't have one then join the ticket queue, then when through often put the ticket machine into the barrier with staff the other side watching no one jumps. From what I observe they make many ticket sales, and people get a great service home all through the night. Runs like clockwork as it happens so often.

 

[Drsatan]

This reminds me of what I see on the continent on a regular basis. Going to city festivals and big music events ending late into the night, emerging and seeing many trams/trains queued up in a very slick operation. Everyone queuing has to show staff a ticket to get through the train queue, if you don't have one then join the ticket queue, then when through often put the ticket machine into the barrier with staff the other side watching no one jumps. From what I observe they make many ticket sales, and people get a great service home all through the night. Runs like clockwork as it happens so often.

Unfortunately, TOCs in the UK do not have the luxury of having lots of spare coaches or multiple units stabled in carriage sidings for use as and when required, and to the best of my knowledge 'spare' turns for drivers have largely been abolished (although I may well be wrong).

It's a no-win situation. Passengers would like to have lots of spare rolling stock stabled in sidings for special events, yet don't want to pay extra for their use. Additionally, having lots of surplus assets would be classified as a waste of capital by any accountant.

 

[87015]

Unfortunately, TOCs in the UK do not have the luxury of having lots of spare coaches or multiple units stabled in carriage sidings for use as and when required, and to the best of my knowledge 'spare' turns for drivers have largely been abolished (although I may well be wrong).

Between and after the peaks, most if not all ex-NSE TOCs, and probably various others, do have copious amounts of stock doing just that - nothing.
If a TOC has no spare/cover turns then that is probably a decision from the very top - and a poor one. Covering them could arguably be a different issue but if there are regular uncovered turns that is again a TOC specific issue. I've only worked where cover turns are certainly in the roster. Most driver diagrams on a peak orientated TOC have plenty of slack in them to be put to use for extra trains, especially counter peak for obvious reasons of the service being unbalanced.

 

[Taunton]

Unfortunately, TOCs in the UK do not have the luxury of having lots of spare coaches or multiple units stabled in carriage sidings.

If you read my original comment about the festival in 1978, you will see that this big return lift happened at 1-2 am. How many suburban units do you think were stabled in carriage sidings at that time? About 100% of the SR stock.

 

[Monty]

And where do you get the staff from?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Well strictly speaking it's up to SWT and Network Rail (and possibly the unions too if it means a change to staffing hours) to arrange. It's not as simple as SWT deciding "right we're going to send a unit up to Waterloo to add to the 22.05".

Chiltern Railways can manage it for events at Wembley, they have a special timetable in place and everything, which they invoke for all major events at the stadium. They strengthen everything out of Marylebone.

An England international football match is not an unexpected event- the calendar for these games was determined last year- and TOCs should have some sort of planning in place for them.

Chiltern Railways prove they can do it, so the "eeh it's too difficult" argument simply doesn't wash.

But the difference is those coach companies want paying up front, everyone is expecting the railways to put the extra trains on for free!

The extra trains are needed because of passenger demand. The passenger demand is giving the TOC extra cash in fares. The TOC can choose a) to stick an extra unit on trains and spend that extra cash or b) do nothing, allow everyone to be squashed in like sardines, and keep all those extra fares as lovely juicy profit.

Chiltern Railways, as discussed, do the former. Stagecoach at SWT, er, do not.

 

[ainsworth74]

And where do you get the staff from?

The staff tree? You know the one next to the money tree...

 

[A-driver]

Between and after the peaks, most if not all ex-NSE TOCs, and probably various others, do have copious amounts of stock doing just that - nothing.
If a TOC has no spare/cover turns then that is probably a decision from the very top - and a poor one. Covering them could arguably be a different issue but if there are regular uncovered turns that is again a TOC specific issue. I've only worked where cover turns are certainly in the roster. Most driver diagrams on a peak orientated TOC have plenty of slack in them to be put to use for extra trains, especially counter peak for obvious reasons of the service being unbalanced.

I don't know who you drive for but at both the TOCs I have worked for there is no slack in driver diagrams peak or off peak. Most jobs are close to minimum turn arounds and minimum PNBs.

As for spares-we have morning stand by turns which are a full job and should be covered. But that only covers 0500-1454. There are about 8 AR people per day at most depots throughout the day & night but very very rare to find more than 1 of them without a job on the weekly roster of allocated work on the day.

 

[NSEFAN]

Chiltern Railways can manage it for events at Wembley, they have a special timetable in place and everything, which they invoke for all major events at the stadium. They strengthen everything out of Marylebone.

An England international football match is not an unexpected event- the calendar for these games was determined last year- and TOCs should have some sort of planning in place for them.

Chiltern Railways prove they can do it, so the "eeh it's too difficult" argument simply doesn't wash.

Chiltern are right to expect an event at wembley stadium (one of their own stations) to generate lots of extra passengers. They will as a result work with the venue to ensure they cater for its needs. They can plan where and when trains need to be out in service in advance.

In the OP's situation, SWT don't serve Wembley, so should they be expected to know that they will have extra passengers on that particular evening? As has already been explained, there aren't many spare staff at all on today's railway, even if there are spare units off-peak that aren't being maintained. Therefore, any additional services will often need to be planned in advance and not just as passengers are turning up at the platforms expecting to get on a train.

 

[martybabes]

And once more it is evident there's a culture of "we can't do anything" rather than "let's be creative and see what we can do." It may not be easy, but at least we can try and adress our customers' needs rather than simply offer excuses. Open your eyes and open your minds.

Otherwise we're all doomed...

 

[A-driver]

And once more it is evident there's a culture of "we can't do anything" rather than "let's be creative and see what we can do." It may not be easy, but at least we can try and adress our customers' needs rather than simply offer excuses. Open your eyes and open your minds.

Otherwise we're all doomed...

Yet another poster on this thread who apparently lives in a fantasy land. Back here in the real world everything costs money. Running extra coaches is hugely expensive. It's also debatable exactly how overcrowded the service in question actually was. Paying for extra coaches to be run could mean they are paying a lot of money to run coaches full of air.

I'll be honest, the TOCs don't really care if you don't get a seat. Whatever your view on that, that is the truth of the situation. It is indeed cheaper to cram a few extra people on a train than it is to run more coaches but it's not just the TOCs fault. The railway system in this country is set up to take away that sort of flexibility.

Plus the railways are a reservation free form of transport and so predicting how many seats are needed is impossible. If you fly you generally book on a specific plane and once it's full they stop selling tickets for it. Therefore if you turned up at gatwick for the last flight to Glasgow of the night without pre-booking and find its full then tough luck- you can't get to Glasgow that night. They won't get you a taxi, hotel or anything like that. Turn up to Euston for the last Glasgow train without booking and you buy a ticket and get on regardless of how fully booked it is. Unless the railways started forcing passengers to pre book and took away that flexibility then they have no way of knowing how many people will turn up every night for their trains.

 

[A-driver]

Open your eyes and open your minds.

Otherwise we're all doomed...

And we arnt really all doomed just because a few people had to stand up on a train for 20mins. First world problems and all that if we are being so silly and over dramatic...

 

[455driver]

Are you saying your TOC has no spare drivers I don't believe that for one minute.

Thats your choice! :roll:

tell you what, why dont you nip down to my depot and have a look to see how many drivers are sat 'spare', any time of day will do it doesnt make any difference, there wont be any because all the 'spare' drivers (on the roster) have been allocated uncovered duties, covering for sickness or holidays and there will be quite a few drivers working their rest days to cover all the work as well, dont believe me? I dont really care because that is the truth which some people struggle to understand. :roll:

 

[Deerfold]

It does surprise me just how many major events are timed to finish so that it's a mad dash for last buses and trains home.

Ideally we'd have much later public transport, especially from our major cities.

But whilst we don't it seems a mad idea.

When was the last time you went to a concert and it finished before 2230?

With last trains and buses often before 2300 (from, say, Leeds) that's a mad dash once you've got from the venue to the station or bus stop - and everyone who makes it cramming onto the last service.

I remember going to a concert at the Stadium of Light in Sunderland on a Saturday. We'd booked to stay in Newcastle for the night.

We were amongst the first 10% of people out of the venue and just in time to see the last Metro go (on time) - we ended up walking home.

You can blame that on the Metro (and it would have been good if they could have run some extra services) but you'd expect the venue to know when the last public transport in the area finished and plan accordingly.

Fortunately we were with a local who knew her way around and we walked back to Newcastle (I suspect we'd have taken just as long by the time we'd managed to grab a taxi).

As a long-term resident of West Yorkshire I used to go out very rarely in Leeds to see gig as I'd miss a good chunk of the set for the 2230ish last train I used to have (which still involved a 3 mile walk/taxi home as it just missed my last bus). Now I live in a different area I go a bit more often as my last train is 2318.

 

[455driver]

Monday 8 'spare' drivers, 7 of those allocated duties, 2 duties uncovered and 1 driver spare.
Tuesday 9 'spare' drivers, all 9 allocated duties, 2 uncovered duties, no drivers spare
Wednesday 10 'spare' drivers, 9 allocated duties, 1 uncovered duty, 1 driver spare
Thursday 9 'spare' drivers, 8 allocated duties, 1/2 a duty uncovered, 1 driver spare
Friday 5 'spare' drivers, all 5 allocated duties, 2 drivers in from ather depots, no drivers spare.

The drivers who are spare cannot work the uncovered duties because they are too far away from them (duty is 0500-1345 and driver is spare 1600-2430 for example), uncovered duties will be covered by drivers working their rest days.

So Mr Martybabes, with soooooo many spares sat around doing nothing how many extra trains can you run because you are obviously so much better than our resources team?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It does surprise me just how many major events are timed to finish so that it's a mad dash for last buses and trains home.

Ideally we'd have much later public transport, especially from our major cities.

So because they want to have their concerts finishing at 2300 public transport should rake up huge costs in moving the people, or maybe they should have the concerts earlier so they finish at a decent time when the buses and trains are still running! :roll:

This isnt the railways (or bus companies) problem its the events organisers problem and they need to sort it.

 

[Deerfold]

So because they want to have their concerts finishing at 2300 public transport should rake up huge costs in moving the people, or maybe they should have the concerts earlier so they finish at a decent time when the buses and trains are still running! :roll:

This isnt the railways (or bus companies) problem its the events organisers problem and they need to sort it.

No, I'm saying we should have later public transport anyway, not for specific events.

Did you miss the bit where I said:

You'd expect the venue to know when the last public transport in the area finished and plan accordingly.

 

[455driver]

No, I'm saying we should have later public transpo the trainrt anyway, not for specific events.

There is not enough (continuous) demand for later services, the buses are run to make money, Councils or Government wont subsidise it so it isnt going to happen.

Did you miss the bit where I said:

Originally Posted by Deerfold
You'd expect the venue to know when the last public transport in the area finished and plan accordingly.

No I didnt, but do you honestly believe the event organisers look at the transport situation before arranging these things?
I dont, the only thing they look at is when the television wants the concert on because that is where the money is.

 

[Deerfold]

There is not enough (continuous) demand for later services, the buses are run to make money, Councils or Government wont subsidise it so it isnt going to happen.

That rather depends where.

The night services (FSO) in Halifax were withdrawn some years ago despite the one I regularly caught being a standing room only double decker.

Nottingham and Derby seem to have managed to develop a fairly comprehensive weekend night bus network - but there's plenty of larger cities don't seem to be able to manage it.

My 2318 out of Leeds is regularly standing room only, suggesting there may well be latent demand for a later service. The handful of overnight departures from Leeds seem to be very busy - at least at weekends. Sadly they don't go in the right direction for me.

No I didnt, but do you honestly believe the event organisers look at the transport situation before arranging these things?
I dont, the only thing they look at is when the television wants the concert on because that is where the money is.

I suspect they don't. I was suggesting they should. Not sure what television has to do with it (are many concerts televised live?) - though I understand it does for sporting events.

 

[duncanp]

I wonder whether the same problem will happen tonight, after the England v Poland game at Wembley.

Also are there similar problems on other late night trains out of Waterloo, Victoria and London Bridge?

 

[PhilipW]

It's also debatable exactly how overcrowded the service in question actually was. Paying for extra coaches to be run could mean they are paying a lot of money to run coaches full of air.

I'll be honest, the TOCs don't really care if you don't get a seat. Whatever your view on that, that is the truth of the situation. It is indeed cheaper to cram a few extra people on a train than it is to run more coaches but it's not just the TOCs fault. The railway system in this country is set up to take away that sort of flexibility.

This is the first time I have ever seen in writing from someone connected to the industry a quote that the TOCS are not too fussed whether you have a seat or not. Interesting.

I can only report on what I witnessed on the train with regard to overcrowding. It is up to the reader as to whether he is inclined to believe me or not or whether he thinks I may be exaggerating. If last Friday was purely a one-off incident, I doubt if I would have bothered to post a thread in the first place.

I often go up to London on a Saturday and return to Southampton Parkway on one of the late evening trains. The trains are always 5-car Class 444s and are invariably nearly full, full or over full when leaving Waterloo. Two of the worst ones are the 22:05 and 23:05 which also pick up at Clapham Junction. At that time of night quite a lot board at Clapham. On those two trains people are often standing as far as Basingstoke; that is quite common.

Given that not all the Class 444s are in use at that time, it seems quite a logical proposition to argue that the trains could be lengthened to 10-cars. One can then have the theoretical argument as to what point it is sensible to strengthen the train, when there are enough people to fill 6 carriages, 7 carriages, 8 carriages or what. I don't know the answer to that. As a rail user, I would say that if there were enough people to fill 7 carriages (i.e the train is 40% overcrowded), then the train should definately be strengthened. I think that is quite a generous percentage.

On the 23:05 last Friday it really was bad. I can only guess a percentage but would estimate that it was 60-80% overcrowded, enough to fill 8 or 9 carriages, compounded by the Clapham Junction stop. I have never known people having to stand as far as Winchester before. Fortunately I only had to stand to Basingstoke.

It seems to be a very odd situation we are in whereby TOCs are encouraged to run as long a train as is possible during the peak hours but then have financial incentives to run as short a train as is possible during the off peaks.

Off peak travel is always being encouraged by train companies. Great, but where there are off peak surges of demand the TOCs should rise to the occasion. Other people have quoted their own examples, I give mine.

 

[NSEFAN]

I suppose TOCs could look at real time ticket sales data. Based on where people are going to/from, and what time the ticket was bought, they could estimate how many people will be coming back that same day. This would at least prompt them to strengthen the last few trains of the day if there has been an unusually high number of day returns purchased after, say, 5pm.

I'm not sure if such travel patterns can be accurately predicted based on the ticketing system we have. It would be interesting to try it, should anyone have access to such information.

 

[CC 72100]

I suppose TOCs could look at real time ticket sales data. Based on where people are going to/from, and what time the ticket was bought, they could estimate how many people will be coming back that same day. This would at least prompt them to strengthen the last few trains of the day if there has been an unusually high number of day returns purchased after, say, 5pm.

I'm not sure if such travel patterns can be accurately predicted based on the ticketing system we have. It would be interesting to try it, should anyone have access to such information.

And then RJ would properly fox them, leading to doubled up trains in random places

It would need some refinement....

 

[SF-02]

So because they want to have their concerts finishing at 2300 public transport should rake up huge costs in moving the people, or maybe they should have the concerts earlier so they finish at a decent time when the buses and trains are still running! :roll:

This isnt the railways (or bus companies) problem its the events organisers problem and they need to sort it.

You're looking at the direct costs to the operator of running later services, which is fair enough under the current system, but the government needs to realise the wider economic and public service benefit of later trains.

It may not be the TOC's fault operating to their franchise, but it is the fault of their masters (the government) setting the franchise conditions, funding and structure. The govt need to see the wider picture. Those concerts are bringing in a lot of tax revenue, but if people can't get there and home reliably venues close. They could run earlier but people generally don't want evening entertainment in the afternoon. And they want to enjoy themselves before and after shows. Pubs bring in a load of revenue through alcohol taxes and with later trains people can stay out later thus the government gets more tax income, and the public a better service. Same with theatres, exhibitions etc.

If there aren't the drivers hire more as spare. This should be funded through the government. I sympathise with the argument that the TOC shouldn't hire them if not in the franchise, but the lack of flexibility as it is raises questions over the funding and operation of the railways.

 

[A-driver]

You're looking at the direct costs to the operator of running later services, which is fair enough under the current system, but the government needs to realise the wider economic and public service benefit of later trains.

It may not be the TOC's fault operating to their franchise, but it is the fault of their masters (the government) setting the franchise conditions, funding and structure. The govt need to see the wider picture. Those concerts are bringing in a lot of tax revenue, but if people can't get there and home reliably venues close. They could run earlier but people generally don't want evening entertainment in the afternoon. And they want to enjoy themselves before and after shows. Pubs bring in a load of revenue through alcohol taxes and with later trains people can stay out later thus the government gets more tax income, and the public a better service. Same with theatres, exhibitions etc.

If there aren't the drivers hire more as spare. This should be funded through the government. I sympathise with the argument that the TOC shouldn't hire them if not in the franchise, but the lack of flexibility as it is raises questions over the funding and operation of the railways.

Well yes, but go and ask the government for more money to fund late night trains. Considering most government funded services are struggling for cash if think your request will be at the bottom if the list... Run later trains so more people can have a drink but if anyone had one too many then they are screwed as there won't be enough staff in A&E to help them.

Sorry but this is the real world and asking for strengthened late night trains isn't something that the TOCs or government are interested in.

 

[martybabes]

Sorry but this is the real world and asking for strengthened late night trains isn't something that the TOCs or government are interested in.

So does this mean we can have little expectation of any other service improvements or innovations? Is the whole railway network destined to remain exactly as it now is because we can no longer expect anything to be done to make it better?

Are we honestly saying that even where there is a clear need for additional passenger facilities to be introduced (for instance, to address overcrowding or to meet a sustained increase in demand at other times of the day) we needn't expect anything to be done?

I get the impression - from reading responses to peoples' concerns - that the network has no additional capacity in the way of (in no particular order) rolling stock, power units, cleaners, station staff, caterers, drivers or guards. And as well as there being no surplus, there is clearly no desire either.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So because they want to have their concerts finishing at 2300 public transport should rake up huge costs in moving the people, or maybe they should have the concerts earlier so they finish at a decent time when the buses and trains are still running! :roll:

This isnt the railways (or bus companies) problem its the events organisers problem and they need to sort it.

So what are these huge costs that public transport needs to rake up in order to provide a service that the passengers pay for? If an extra train has capacity for 500 customers at a tenner each, there's 5 grand in additional revenue for starters. And I bet the driver's pay and additional fuel costs don't get anywhere close to that figure. Just put the train back afterwards to where it's needed the following day. Bish Bosh.

Bejaysus - this country needs a few more people with a "can do" attitude rather than the lily-livered response we seem to get these days.

 

[A-driver]

So does this mean we can have little expectation of any other service improvements or innovations? Is the whole railway network destined to remain exactly as it now is because we can no longer expect anything to be done to make it better?

Are we honestly saying that even where there is a clear need for additional passenger facilities to be introduced (for instance, to address overcrowding or to meet a sustained increase in demand at other times of the day) we needn't expect anything to be done?

I get the impression - from reading responses to peoples' concerns - that the network has no additional capacity in the way of (in no particular order) rolling stock, power units, cleaners, station staff, caterers, drivers or guards. And as well as there being no surplus, there is clearly no desire either.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


So what are these huge costs that public transport needs to rake up in order to provide a service that the passengers pay for? If an extra train has capacity for 500 customers at a tenner each, there's 5 grand in additional revenue for starters. And I bet the driver's pay and additional fuel costs don't get anywhere close to that figure. Just put the train back afterwards to where it's needed the following day. Bish Bosh.

Bejaysus - this country needs a few more people with a "can do" attitude rather than the lily-livered response we seem to get these days.

You quite clearly have no idea of the practicalities and costs of running a train do you.,, 'Bish Bosh'.

Staffing costs.
Track access costs.
Additional pathing costs to. 'Just put the train back afterwards'.
Additional maintenance costs.
Leasing costs to run extra mileage.

for a start...

Then try getting the additional coaches back from one end of the network to the other in time for the morning peak when there are engineering with a blocking the line etc.

If only things were anywhere close to as simple as they are in your little world!

 

[Flamingo]

The priority in government minds and therefore in TOC's minds is to have a rail service that can get people to and from work.

Subsidising people going out on the **** and getting home afterwards is not a priority.

 

[NSEFAN]

Bejaysus - this country needs a few more people with a "can do" attitude rather than the lily-livered response we seem to get these days.

That's easy for you to say. The railway isn't a giant train set. Everything has to be costed, making late-night trains inherently loss making compared to jam-packed peak commuter trains. It wasn't like this back in BR days, as running one extra train was viewed as a marginal cost. Sadly the industry is very fragmented now and everyone has to pay everyone else in before anything can be done.

Nobody here is saying that's how things should be, but it's the end result of the current system. I agree there should be more late night services on some routes, but without political will from the DfT it's not going to happen. TOCs aren't there to think for themselves and take initiative. They are there to run the trains as specified by the DfT.

 

[PhilipW]

I agree there should be more late night services on some routes, but without political will from the DfT it's not going to happen. TOCs aren't there to think for themselves and take initiative. They are there to run the trains as specified by the DfT.

I accept that the DfT specify the number of trains, but surely the length of each train is up to the TOC.

If we are saying that once all the commuters have got home then, in order to save the TOCs some money, each train after about 20:00 is formed of just one set (4-car or 5-car) irrespective of the number of people wanting to travel, that indeed is a sorry state of affairs.

 

[NSEFAN]

I accept that the DfT specify the number of trains, but surely the length of each train is up to the TOC.

If we are saying that once all the commuters have got home then, in order to save the TOCs some money, each train after about 20:00 is formed of just one set (4-car or 5-car) irrespective of the number of people wanting to travel, that indeed is a sorry state of affairs.

I'm not sure if train lengths are specified by the DfT or not, but either way the TOC has incentive to cram as many people in as possible, as it reduces their costs.

Again it's all down to costing. One would think that accountants are the worse thing that ever happened to the railway.