Gross overcrowding on the 23:05 Waterloo to Poole service

[SF-02]

The later southeastern services from Charing Cross are often standing only. I've had a time when once was curtailed at new Cross due to a fault. The amount of people on the platform was insane. The next train was so full some people couldn't get on. Not ideal at midnight. The platform crowding, train at crush capacity, and people left behind with a long wait due to infrequent late night services was worse than rush hour. Even before the issue the train was busier than most rush hour services leaving central London.

When will authorities realise that London is a major world city and last trains are terrible for the London late night economy?

So they may have to put on more staff, or even risk people not paying, but the wider economy will benefit so much more with people being able to stay out and spend.

Southeastern's consultation for the next 4 years of the franchise has just ended. Let's hope later trains on Friday and Saturday appear on some routes - just 30 minutes to an hour would be a start. I fear the London Bridge rebuilding may hamper that which would be fair enough, but if a way can be found I hope it's taken.

 

[Eagle]

If however (for example) there is a genuine need to strengthen the 22:05 and 23:05 from Waterloo every Friday and Saturday night, that's up to SWT to arrange..

Well strictly speaking it's up to SWT and Network Rail (and possibly the unions too if it means a change to staffing hours) to arrange. It's not as simple as SWT deciding "right we're going to send a unit up to Waterloo to add to the 22.05".

 

[SF-02]

So what do you propose then!
Instead of just sitting there saying "its wrong" come up with a viable/workable solution!

Things to bear in mind-
All the diagrams have to be agreed between the TOC, leasing/maintenance company and NR in advance?

Who is going to absorb the extra train costs which will be incurred and which may or may not be covered by the extra revenue taken?

How do you propose to get the unit (which has been used to strengthen the train from A to B) back to A so it can continue on its diagram the next day and who is going to clean/tank the train as it has missed its slot and all the cleaners are contracted to clean a certain number of trains per night so if its in the wrong location you either pay extra to have the train cleaned (if its possible) at B or it doesnt get cleaned?
If you are going to use an VSTP and run an ECS path then who is going to pay for that path (they all have to be worked out and agreed) and who is going to actually drive the thing (no crews sat around doing nothing nowadays).

Based upon the responses given the proposals surely should be to radically alter the privatised structure or renationalise given how fragmented, inflexible, and costly the current set up seems to be.

As to who would absorb extra train costs - well if rolling stock is state owned then leasing costs wouldn't be an issue I presume, and could be allocated on an as-needed basis. Pathing costs would be altered or removed so that train lengths can be altered quickly at no financial costs.

As to where extra trains would come from to allow greater tolerances - buying outright from government coffers which can borrow at 2%, instead of leasing for decades off a private company which borrows at 5% costing the taxpayer more over 20 + years, would be the sensible solution.

As for who would absorb the wider extra costs - the government, as taking a holistic approach the night time economies would benefit greatly through people being able to stay out later, bringing the govt extra revenue through pubs and bars (and all that lovely extra alcohol revenue which would exceed the running costs of the railway, also providing more work hours for staff thus extra NI & income tax).

 

[Broken Viking]

I often use the 01:05 departures from Waterloo on Friday and Saturday nights, which are normally formed of 2x450s. These run fairly close to seated capacity in most cases that I've seen and if I've got my bike in tow I have to be one of the first to board so I can get to the dedicated cycle area before somebody else decides to sit in it! :razz:
Overall, loading on this service isn't that bad except when there's an event on in town (The 'Maiden gig at the O2 a few months back being a classic example) in which case it tends to be quite Underground-esque as far as Surbiton. :eek:

That said, my biggest gripe about late night SWT services isn't capacity at all (Which is OK for the most part) but more the on-board toilets...Or lack thereof! hock:
I wouldn't mind being on a train with 4 of 4 duff loos in the day when I can always alight and use the ones at an intermediate station...But in the middle of the night, on the last train of the night, and with not a single soddin' loo open anywhere on the route, the frequent lack of working toilets on-board really does - 'Scuse the pun - Take the ****! :roll:

Just my two "SWT compensation vouchers" worth, ye understand...

 

[87015]

So what do you propose then!
Instead of just sitting there saying "its wrong" come up with a viable/workable solution!

Things to bear in mind-
All the diagrams have to be agreed between the TOC, leasing/maintenance company and NR in advance?

Who is going to absorb the extra costs which will be incurred and which may or may not be covered by the extra revenue taken?

How do you propose to get the unit (which has been used to strengthen the train from A to B) back to A so it can continue on its diagram the next day and who is going to clean/tank the train as it has missed its slot and all the cleaners are contracted to clean a certain number of trains per night so if its in the wrong location you either pay extra to have the train cleaned (if its possible) at B or it doesnt get cleaned?
If you are going to use an VSTP and run an ECS path then who is going to pay for that path (they all have to be worked out and agreed) and who is going to actually drive the thing (no crews sat around doing nothing nowadays).

Unless SWT is very different to other TOCs you are talking of barriers which simply don't exist - to strengthen such a service under STP basis for expected high loadings is very simple bread and butter work for train planning and then the people on the ground that make it happen.

For making trains 8 v 4 under STP usually the only cost is in extra unit mileage as everything else you can balance up by playing with the trainplan. It won't break anyones bank account.

 

[306024]

It won't break anyones bank account.

It can do! It does depend on the contract with the rolling stock provider. There are many different contracts out there, but run too much additional STP mileage and you could find yourself in another maintenance mileage band, which would be costly.

I was going to suggest in SWT's case cycling the units for toilet emptying could be an issue, but that seems to be a problem regardless.

 

[HSTEd]

In other words, the glorious free market commanded that the train be overcrowded :P

 

[yorksrob]

I often use the 01
That said, my biggest gripe about late night SWT services isn't capacity at all (Which is OK for the most part) but more the on-board toilets...Or lack thereof! hock:
I wouldn't mind being on a train with 4 of 4 duff loos in the day when I can always alight and use the ones at an intermediate station...But in the middle of the night, on the last train of the night, and with not a single soddin' loo open anywhere on the route, the frequent lack of working toilets on-board really does - 'Scuse the pun - Take the ****! :roll:

Just my two "SWT compensation vouchers" worth, ye understand...

I can certainly empathise with that one !

 

[alex17595]

Just wait 'til you move to the grim, dark North of England. You wanna see where I work :P

But is it in the loveley salmon pink?

 

[extendedpaul]

Chiltern Railways did an excellent job at Wembley Stadium Station on both occasions I was there for major evening events. Extra services and plenty of staff and signs to marshal people to their trains. So it can be done !

 

[NSEFAN]

Chiltern Railways did an excellent job at Wembley Stadium Station on both occasions I was there for major evening events. Extra services and plenty of staff and signs to marshal people to their trains. So it can be done !

It can be done when it's planned well. Running trains at short notice is not something the modern railway is good at.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Fair play to FCC - they often strengthen late evening 2300+ trains out of London - especially in the pre Xmas season - one weekend they were only running into St Pancras High Level and there were hordes around (self and son coming back from "Madness" at the O2 for the 0105 - they sent an extra 4 cars down from Cricklewood and made it 8 cars. Still packed and late away - but much appreciated.

In terms of toilets - and I speak from 319 experience - usage goes up massively from Friday night onwards (wonder why ?) - so the pumping out programe is / was modified accordingly....

 

[yorksrob]

It‘s always going to be a problem with controlled emmission toilets.

 

[Bald Rick]

Chiltern Railways did an excellent job at Wembley Stadium Station on both occasions I was there for major evening events. Extra services and plenty of staff and signs to marshal people to their trains. So it can be done !

And it is done on routes that serve major events. Ref SWT for Twickenham, Wimbledon, Ascot etc.

 

[455driver]

Lets not forget this thread is on about England mongball team playing, if it was a local team (Southampton for example) then SWT would probably have strengthened some of the services as the extra passengers would have been known about but how were SWT to know that loads of people from Southampton way were going to go to the match and then all catch the same train home!

It simply is not possible to strengthen services 'just in case', sectorisation and then privytisation took case of that.

 

[Mojo]

I wonder if the sports match thing is actually a red herring - in my experience a lot of SWT services on Friday nights leaving London are very busy (with a fair amount of standees) on a normal night, let alone after an event!

 

[SF-02]

I wonder if the sports match thing is actually a red herring - in my experience a lot of SWT services on Friday nights leaving London are very busy (with a fair amount of standees) on a normal night, let alone after an event!

Yep this is the most pressing wider point instead of one off events. Nowadays many last trains are busy showing existing demand and the need for the railways to have a strategy to deal with this is coming years. Later weekend trains will benefit the late night economy in towns and cities.

 

[Eagle]

But on the minus side, later weekend trains would limit the amount of engineering works time.

 

[sarahj]

Slightly Off topic.

We at southern can only run a through the night service as we have so many ways to get into and out of Victoria. So between Three Bridges, we have the quarry and the redhill lines. WE can then go fast or slow BML from Croydon to Victoria, or go via Crystal Palce and the Hill, or even as we did last weekend go via Herne Hill and Tulse Hill and come into the SET part of Victoria. The fun and games will be over christmas when we loose Stoats nest junction and the whole BML is shut. Good luck the Dorking and Uckfield lines then.

Back OT

At Southern a list each day goes out about certain events that might swamp us. Sometimes there are just too many. I know that the 1.00am service from Vic To BTN is now 8 cars when we have the spare stock. Fun is always to be had when Brighton plays at home. Re run the longest trains we can for the platforms, (including 6 car 313's) and the most frequent to the signal blocks, but its still packed out. But then say its a sunny saturday, and Portsmouth are playing at home, and at least 2-3 of the big London teams playing at Home. (not saying who), or Man U playing in London then that adds to weekend pressure.

But we do get caught out. One week night I was running a vary late train down, that invloved terminating at Three Bridges and getting everyone onto a bus. Normally this train is quite dead on a week night. And nothing was noted of big events. However the train was packed. It seemed, a local band (from Brighton) had been playing a gig in London, and it was packed with their followers. Well packed, I say about 200. Ok for a 4 car, but not ok for the one double decker waiting at three bridges. I had to get control to send another couple of buses, which was fun at 1am.

Of course we could end up doing what happens when the Shakedown festival comes to Brighton (just near Falmer and walking distance from Mouslecoombe). They refuse to pay towards extra policing at the stations, so BTP and sussex Pol make us close the stations. (tickets valid on local buses).

 

[HSTEd]

Wouldn't slab track allow fewer maintenance closures?

 

[sarahj]

Perhaps, but the time needed to put it down would be slightly longer than the time we have to do it. Great for new build, not great for a 6 hour possession.

I'm guessing:

Remove track
Dig out all balast
Place in drainage.
Set new base.
Place down metal strengthning
Pour concrete
Allow to fully set
Place clips
Lay rail.
Connect and test.

Meanwhile standard track replacement had many automated machines to speed things up, so can be mainly done in a weekend, nightime possession.

 

[PhilipW]

I wonder if the sports match thing is actually a red herring - in my experience a lot of SWT services on Friday nights leaving London are very busy (with a fair amount of standees) on a normal night, let alone after an event!

Agreed. In my experience the 23:05 is often busy and standing. On this occasion it was very very busy and standing.

I wonder also how SWT management get to hear about what happens on the ground. Is the guard obliged to report about the numbers on the train ? They can't fix a problem if they don't even know there is a problem to fix.

On Friday I wonder even if the guard was aware the conditions throughout the train. I presume he stayed in one position all journey. He never walked through the train to check tickets (he couldn't as it was so packed). He was in Coach 5 as I came on the platform at Waterloo and certainly never made it up to Coach 2 where I was.

 

[HSTEd]

But slab track can go decades without any maintenance apart from grinding which can be done amongsttraffic now.

 

[Eagle]

I wonder also how SWT management get to hear about what happens on the ground. Is the guard obliged to report about the numbers on the train ? They can't fix a problem if they don't even know there is a problem to fix.

And if the guard did report that the train was very busy, what could anyone possibly have done about it?

Can't add a unit, for reasons already stated above (too short notice). Can't run another service (that's even more difficult to arrange).

Unless you're saying that he should have turfed half the people off so that the other half had a more comfortable service.

 

[Boysteve]

I remember standing from Paddington, all the way to Exeter on a busy Friday night HST to Plymouth, which was just over 2 hours

Regularly seen on the 19:00 Euston - Manchester, folk stand until Macclesfield or Stockport, even with an 11 car Pendolino

 

[PhilipW]

And if the guard did report that the train was very busy, what could anyone possibly have done about it?

Can't add a unit, for reasons already stated above (too short notice). Can't run another service (that's even more difficult to arrange).

Unless you're saying that he should have turfed half the people off so that the other half had a more comfortable service.

You misunderstand me. Obviously nothing can be done that night. We all understand that.

If the problem with the 23:05 (or any other train) is persistent on a Friday or Saturday night, then once SWT management realise that hopefully they can plan to add extra carriages on a regular basis. I would like to think that they are responsive to situations like this.

 

[sarahj]

A guard can report a train as full and standing, and even your in the back, you know whats going on.

 

[Eagle]

Regularly seen on the 19:00 Euston - Manchester, folk stand until Macclesfield or Stockport, even with an 11 car Pendolino

That's because it's the first train on which many Off Peak tickets are valid. You'll find that on a lot of long distance services leaving London between 19.00 and 19.30.

 

[TheEdge]

A guard can report a train as full and standing, and even your in the back, you know whats going on.

But what can actually be done with that information?

If a Norwich - London service leaves Colchester full and standing with a few phone calls we can try to get Chelmsford to encourage people on to trains. But that won't work with late trains as in this case.

If its the last train no matter how full it is there isn't much that can be done!

 

[Taunton]

It's amazing that all the infrastructure can be in place to sell all these tickets for late Friday, weekends, etc, but then not to be able to get the stock out of the sidings to provide what people have just bought, How convenient for the railway management that you have to pay first before you see what is provided (or isn't), unlike a shop or restaurant. Given the real time data which ticket machines now provide, it shouldn't be rocket science to know that if you sell many more tickets earlier in the evening, they are probably going to come back at the end.

Overcrowding outside the traditional 'peak hours' is an increasing London and South East issue, just made more annoying by passing rake after rake of stock laying in sidings as you gasp for air, all pressed in to a short train.

Late Friday services out of Fenchurch Street, always four cars only, regularly are more squashed-in than peak hour services at 1730 when 8 or 12 on everything are all rustled up.

Who is the buffoon at Chiltern who puts TWO coach trains on busy London suburban services? I'm sure some franchise managements look with envy at Mumbai commuter trains where you can get another 30 per car sitting on the roof for no extra cost.

Saturday morning at Gatwick. In comes Thameslink northbound, a 319, FOUR CARS ONLY, already pretty full from Brighton etc, in gets maybe 70 people with luggage. By East Croydon some people on the platform can't even get in.